Disable automatic color space compression on CinemaDNG files

[SixTwo_Pro]

When I import my CinemaDNG files from the BMPCC into Premiere, it looks like premiere is still applying a rec709-type LUT to the image by default, as opposed to showing the log images it captures in.  Is there a way to disable this?  I have several LUTs built specifically for BMCC/BMPCC footage in its log format, and the auto-correction Premiere slaps on there messes up those LUTs.  I really want to get away from Davinci Resolve and go with a full Adobe workflow but unless there's a workaround for this I'm still limited to round-tripping to Resolve in order to use the LUTs.

[Jim_Simon]

The newest 2014 version released today is supposed to add limited Source Settings for supported CinemaDNG files.  Have you looked there?

[SixTwo_Pro]

Jim, I tried there, but the options are limited to white balance, exposure, and tint.  No option to disable it.

[JayFriesen]

I'm not getting that behavior here. My DNG files are as flat as when they're shot.

[SixTwo_Pro]

Jay, are you getting the DNG files from the BMPCC?  Or the BMCC?  Maybe it's a camera-specific issue.  My files are flat when I open them in Resolve, and my ProRes footage is flat in both programs.  It's only the CinemaDNG that is messed up.

[JayFriesen]

BMCC. I can try BMPCC tomorrow though. Every app is going to interpret RAW data a bit differently so it's going to look different app to app in its uncorrected state. So that same LUT you use in Resolve will give you different results in Premiere. As far as I know Premiere's never auto-applied anything to imported footage nor allows you that option. So without seeing it, I'd venture to say is the differences between apps rather than an auto-applied LUT. Maybe apply the LUT and tweak with the source settings to see if that could be the case.

[SixTwo_Pro]

There is a definite look baked into my footage when I look at it in Premiere, and this is before doing any sort of color correction or adding LUTs.  Highlights are completely blown and have this weird colored speckle like it's been supersaturated, despite adjusting exposure in source settings and/or utilizing color correction tools in Premiere.  The images look great in Resolve, and gorgeous in After Effects after processing through ACR.  Oh, and if I import the DNGs directly into Speedgrade without taking them into Premiere first, they load just fine but the image is completely black.  The crazy thing is that if I crank ridiculous amounts of gain into the image it unfolds into a semi-decent image, but applying a built-in LUT within Speedgrade kills the adjustment and it goes back to black.

[Jim_Simon]

I'd venture to say is the differences between apps rather than an auto-applied LUT

SixTwo is correct.  Adobe pre-applies some form of 'correction' to BMCC files upon import, with no way to disable the behavior in CC (nor in 2014 it appears).

RAW files should not look different in various applications.  That's the whole point of having a hardware connected, calibrated monitor for critical analysis.  ANY program sending video out that connection should look identical.

[jamesp2]

Whether it's Resolve, ACR or PPRO, RAW files must be "debayered".  There is no one standard to accomplishing debayering, so different software will produce different looking images.  In Resolve, you can have the additional option of converting the debayered image to BMD Film. 

The main thing is to preserve the dynamic range the RAW file captured.  However, there is, and should be, no reasonable expectation that all debayering software will produce identical results.  PPro may be applying additional LUTs, but that's another issue.

[BalukMagic]

James, you are missing the entire point of the discussion. It is imperative that Adobe allows us to select a colourspace (as is the case in R3D workflow).

What about speedgrade? It's a disaster there as well. (You cannot grade the image on a "professional" colour program)

[jamesp2]

I am not addressing the "entire discussion" -- just the claim that RAW files are supposed to look identical on all systems after debayering ("in response to Jim Simon"--see above).

And I'm not sure why you're referring to apparent image processing as "colourspace".  Is the objection here that Adobe is ruining the image or limiting grading through too much processing, or simply that external LUTs which work on one system don't work well here, because PrPRO debayering is different from debayering elsewhere?

[BalukMagic]

Ok, yes different systems may treat raw files differently while debayering.

However, the main discussion here is that Premiere "bakes in" a rec709 looking colorspace into the image. Yes you can adjust exposure (and get pink highlights if you go to far??) but it is still using a small amount of information that is available.

What needs to happen is for Premiere to treat the footage with a log style colorspace, and add more tools such as highlight recovery.

[jamesp2]

CC tools in PPro are so crude and unwieldy (at least in comparison with Resolve) that it's not clear (to me, at least) that the conversion RAW to log style, the way Resolve does it, would be all that useful anyway.

But, reverting to the OP, is it a certainty that PPro actually *is* baking in a rec. 709 look, from which there's no recovery, or just that the tools in PPro aren't capable of recovering data which is there?

[BalukMagic]

It doesn't actually "bake" in a rec709 look unless you were to export it from premiere. Because you can change the exposure a bit or color temp, yes, so it is indeed raw, but not very useful as this thread indicates.

Having the ability to set a colourspace would be useful and is necessary when working with raw. You even mention it yourself, different processes would produce different results, and this is why we have colorspaces.

[Steve_Hoeg]

That is correct, there is nothing really baked in and the full latitude of the original file is available to work with. All original data including overrange highlights and lowlights is available without clipping that you can work with.

[BalukMagic]

We can only really work with them in Resolve, to be honest. If I lower the highlights in the source settings, the image turns pink after lowering the exposure. (furthermore, the raw doesn't work in speedgrade for me at all).

[jamesp2]

Based on some brief testing, clips which have strong coloration in partially recovered highlights in PrPRO (yellow and pink) also have it in Resolve (pink) -- though it's much less extreme in Resolve.  However, you need to desaturate these clips in Resolve as well, and there's so little detail in these areas that the Resolve advantage here is questionable.

[Steve_Hoeg]

Thanks, we'll look into the pink highlights.

[JayFriesen]

In my experience with the ACam Dii and BMD cameras is that those pink highlights show where you've clipped the input of the camera's sensor. Ikonoskop did a lot of work in later revisions to keep those clipped sections white instead of pink. BMD's done pretty good at keeping those white as well. But there's also a combo of debayering or the given app's interpretation of that RAW file - this is likely what we're seeing in Pr and SG. But also, a good colorist can grade that out easily back to white.

[SixTwo_Pro]

Steve, the issue is not so much whether or not the latitude exists, although I would venture to say Premiere doesn't quite squeeze as much out of it as Resolve.  The biggest issue is that the image I'm presented with when I put it on the timeline has already been pre-treated with some sort of LUT.  The exposure has been pre-stretched to a rec.709-like look, and it has been pre-saturated.  If I shoot footage in ProRes and then import it into Premiere, I get that flat, desaturated look that shows me the full latitude of the image I'm working with, and I can grade from there.  That's the look we all expect to see when we import our raw footage into Premiere; not something that has already been pre-stretched and requires me to basically work backwards in exposing my images properly.

I hope this makes sense to everyone.  Steve, if nothing else, turn this into a feature request for the next update.  Give us a checkbox or something that allows us to see our footage in a log or ProRes type colorspace by default.

[BalukMagic]

It really is Extremely disappointing the way CC2014 handles CinemaDNGs.

[SixTwo_Pro]

Hey Adobe fellas, would you mind responding to this?  A couple of your people have told me on Twitter to post this here and get it resolved, and I've reminded them that I did it a week ago.  Yet nobody from Adobe has addressed the issue yet.  I know I can adjust the exposure slider, but that doesn't give me back the dynamic range and flat color that the auto-conversion took away.  It just allows me to choose which of the 9 out of my original 13 stops I get to use.

Seriously, I waited for about a year to be able to use cDNG footage from my Blackmagic cams natively in Premiere so I could leave DaVinci Resolve behind.  What I got instead is a Premiere CC2014 that (for BMPCC) is basically useless when editing raw, and a Resolve 11 beta that is vastly improved in terms of raw adjustments and now has a decent basic editor built-in.  And Resolve Lite is FREE.  It baffles me that the company who claims to have the world's best creating and editing suite (and I'm not knocking your other amazing programs) can't even properly handle the codec you INVENTED, a codec which is growing quickly in popularity (used by all Blackmagic cams, Magic Lantern DSLR hacks, Odyssey 7Q recorders, etc).  I have been a huge fanboy for Adobe since the day I first got my hands on a copy of Photoshop, and Premiere is the editor I cut my teeth on.  But because of a few critical shortcomings, I'm on the verge of having to let you go for a piece of software I only learned as a stopgap to using my footage until your company caught up with the cDNG craze.

PLEASE get this issue solved.  When I open up Premiere, I need to see my footage exactly as I shot it.  Don't apply any automatic treatments to the footage.  Don't stretch the highlights, don't crush the blacks, don't saturate it, and don't put a LUT on it.  Just give me the raw footage so I can color correct it the way I want to correct it.  Then I can edit it and kick it out to Speedgrade to grade and After Effects for, y'know, effects and stuff.

Okay... rant finished.  Let's fix this thing.

[Greg1978]

Hi SixTwo Pro, did you find a solution to this? I am having a similar issue with some Amira files. I imported them in and it automatically applies an LUT. The only way I can see to turn it off is to go into each clip individually and remove the effect. It's not ideal but I don't seem to be able to find another solution.

[the-goblin]

Hi Greg1978,

I had the same issue. I've just tried importing Amira files into Premiere and have had an automatically applied LUT with no option to turn off. I think I found a simple workaround (and I don't know if this will work for CinemaDNG files as well)...

Using Prelude CC 2014, ingest the files you want, then select them all and send them to Premiere Pro (File>Send to Premiere Pro). This then sends the Amira files to Premiere Pro without the LUT. You can then apply a LUT in Speedgrade that you can turn on and off in the Effects window in Premiere.

[Domgill1980]

I am also experiencing the 'fake bake' as I have coined it with Amira Prores files…..