Does Adobe have plans to fix the tossing of your color grade when exporting?

[TrellWest]

Does anyone have the issue where you spend an hour adjusting the whitebalance, and colorgrading and applying luts for adobe premiere to only disregard all the changes when you export? I dont particularly like to apply the wierd gamma.cube lut that I have to apply while exporting to retain the edits I've been with adjustment layers, color grades and luts etc.

Seems like a wierd thing to disregard when you're exporting your work.. does adobe have plans to fix this or do we all collectively just have our own workarounds - I cant be the only one?

[Graeme Bull]

Sounds like a video driver bug maybe. How are you exporting? How are you applying your grade? Is it on the footage or an adjustment layer? Some more details will definitely help rather than an oddly worded question of if Adobe plans to fix a problem that you are having possibly based on your workflow, hardware or software. Provide as much info as you can so as that people can help you.

[TrellWest]

Sorry for the confusion - I'm referencing the need for the QT Gamma Compensation.cube lut that you have to apply during export to retain the colors you created in premiere. (Premiere Pro is set up for broadcast quality and most of us are not exporting or working on videos for broadcast hence the need for the correction lut). 

[Kevin-Monahan]

TrelWest,

Sorry about that. No one knows the teams plans. They will let you know. I would file a bug on User Voice, though.

Have you tried color grading using a separate monitor? It sounds like you are operating with a P3. A Mac P3 monitor is very unreliable for color grading, I found. In fact, I'd say that even back in my FCP days, I always used a separate monitor for seeing true colors in any rendered output.

If you have another computer monitor lying around. Hook it up. Give it a try.

Thanks,

Kevin

[TrellWest]

Thanks for your reply Kevin, I understand adobe is professional software but I have a $3,500 Macbook pro - you'd think adobe would consider the creator community making content for online video as a huge market to work around, and not me having to buy a new monitor. I'm just confused as to why adobe would take it upon itself to change my edit/what i'm viewing in the monitor in adobe premiere and changing it - indiscriminatly - during the export as a some sort of guess work and 'surprise'. 

[Kevin-Monahan]

If you are working solely with a MacBook Pro, definitely get yourself a second monitor. Much nicer to edit with. As a Mac user, I share your frustration. As your inside adovocate with the Premiere Pro team, I am also letting them know that the situation is one of the top ones that needs solving.

I can only be so annoying until the team will get sick of me and no longer invite me to bowling parties or beer busts. That said, I'm sure they are working on some kind of solution.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Warren Heaton]

Hi Trell:

Have you tried changing the Display Profile on your MacBook Pro from Color LCD to sRGB IEC61966-2.1?  That's similar to what you'll see on an external display if it's set to sRGB as well.  Or if you're curious what someone doing broadcast work might be looking at, try Rec.709 Gamma 2.4.  Although someone doing broadcast work is likely to be using SpectraCal.  

-Warren

[R Neil Haugen]

Sorry to hang on about this ... but it isn't Adobe that's making that change, really. It's basic color management inherent in the Mac ... the Premiere Pro team is trying to stay with the near-universal Rec.709 standards. And by that, I mean universal everywhere but on a Mac. So within PrPro, they work to the universal standard.

Mac doesn't follow the standards though. There's the problem. And yes, it's frustration beyond belief.

That export you see as changing on your Mac? Send it to me, and on my gear, it will look correct. In fact, look at it on your Mac as Warren and others have suggested, and you may also get a correct look on your rig.

And for further evidence ... BlackMagic can't get around this either. So it's not just "Adobe" ... if it was, it would be one heck of a lot easier to fix. My colorist buds, mostly total Mac people, are also rather peeved at Apple over this ColorSync problem.

"Adobe" can't fix it. Blackmagic can't fix it. Apple could in a skinny minute if they simply changed the ColorSync actions when seeing Rec.709 media.

Neil

[Christian.Z]

The compensation LUT is what we all have for now.

Please submit a Bug report / Feature request at the Adobe User Voice: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/

[R Neil Haugen]

The basic problem is one that Adobe cannot solve. For that matter, BlackMagic can't solve it either.

When Apple created ColorSync, their color management system, they made a couple odd and very non-standard choices.

The full Rec.709 standards for pro work and broadcast are clear: sRGB primaries, D65 white point, gamma 2.4 (2.2 allowable in bright-room work), 100 nits brightness for the monitor, and applying both the scene-referred and display-referred transforms listed in the Rec.709 standards.

Apple for some reason didn't follow the full standards list in their "Rec.709" handling of media within ColorSync. They made two major changes:

- First, they apply what they call "sRGB Gamma" which when reverse engineered is between 1.95 and 1.96.

- Second, they only apply the scene-referred transform, they do not apply the also required display-referred transform.

The "display color management" option trys to get around this by remapping to a proper Rec.709 image by checking the ICC profile of the monitor. This helps within PrPro, but can't affect anything outside of PrPro on a Mac. As in the exports you've noted.

That's where that "gamma compensation LUT" comes in, as it will make the image often look more "proper" on a Mac with the ColorSync Rec.709 settings applied. However, and as they warn in the post where they announced that LUT, be aware: outside the Mac systems, on any proper b-cast system and most PCs, that image will be too dark, contrasty, and over-saturated.

Resolve tries a different approach. They offer a "Rec.709A" export option. And yes, A is for Apple. This sets a different NLC tag in place, which ColorSync sees and applies 2.4 gamma and both transforms to the file from testing done by many colorists. Sounds fine, right?

Unfortunately, that has the same issue on many non-Mac systems as the Adobe gamma compensation LUT ... the image is too dark, contrasty, and over-saturated.

Most of my many colorist freinds are Mac based, and to be honest, this drives them nuts. But it isn't something that either BlackMagic or Adobe can "fix" ... if Apple chooses non-standard standards.

And then there's the whole mess of different players/browsers and whether or not they pay any attention to color management at all. Yea, it's a mess.

Neil

[Kevin-Monahan]

I will continue to ask the team to find a better solution. Caroline, in particular, has been working really hard with the team on finding a solution.

Cheers,
Kevin

[R Neil Haugen]

As have people at BlackMagic and all the colorists I know ... it's a tough nut.

Neil

[TrellWest]

It seems all the would need to be done is bake the QT compensation gamma lut gube into the export process via a clickable button. Couldnt this file just be a part of the export process itself as an option to toggle? 

[R Neil Haugen]

The problem is of course a difference in display gammas used.

So ... even in using the gamma compensation LUT, you're just passing around who gets the worst image. It's not a fix, it's a bandaid only useful on some screens.

That LUT gets around the display gamma issue for some Mac screens, using certain browsers or players. But it makes the image too dark on most any Android/PC or full-on Rec.709 screen.

And for Mac users with the option (not all Macs have it) for "HDTV" on  their screen settings, again ... that file with the LUT baked in will be too dark, as if you set a Mac monitor to HDTV ... it will use the proper Rec.709 display gamma of 2.4.

Yea, this is a frustrating mess. Pick your poison sort of thing.

Neil

[Fergus H]

Hello!

We are currently working on an option to make dealing with this issue easier. I don't have a date yet but it is actively being worked on. 

Regards,

Fergus