Does Apple Pro Display XDR support Premiere Pro 2020?

[Stevelong03]

Can I use the Reference Mode offerd by Apple Pro Display XDR for color grading in Premiere Pro? I have only one display connected Mac Pro 2019 via thunderbolt 3.

I mean both SDR & HDR color grading.

[chrisw44157881]

Ya know, its funny to me. even after all the Extended Dynamic Range Monitoring for imac pro retina displays,  XDR monitor incompatibility and still needing an aja card, HLG timeline support, PQ export support, etc.

You'd think adobe would actually make HDR a priority to actually view HDR...

[R Neil Haugen]

Chris,

As noted elseswhere, I "spend time" daily working with/communicating with colorists. In "pro" work, that is essentially broadcast/longform, it's still needing around/above a $30,000 monitor connected via external boxes for actually being acceptable for grading HDR work. (Never gonna be in my budget.)

The Apple XDR monitor is considered a joke as far as HDR grading is concerned, it has relatively few dimming zones and blooming is very, very notable on that monitor. You have much in the way of distributed speculars, your blacks jump up to shadowy mud in those areas. Not at all acceptable for grading any "pro" work for say Netflix.

However ... the Apple XDR monitor is their one and only monitor that handles Rec.709 very nicely, interesting that it is. A couple of the pro colorist's reviews have noted their surprise that it actually seemed to handle all the things that the Mac ColorSync utility combined with the Retina displays get wrong about actual real Rec.709.

Maybe that shouldn't be that big a surprise in some ways, as the price is about that of a typical Grade 1 Reference monitor for broadcast use. But the software/firmware handling Rec.709 so perfectly, that was unexpected.

Up until a few months back, the only way to get any full-screen out from Resolve was through BM gear, you couldn't get out for that through a GPU. For years, I'd been running three monitors including a transmit-out full screen in Premiere, but could only run two GUI screens in Resolve.

They all have their little "things". As they are clearly working on expanding their HDR work, especially with major changes rolled out in about three ways over the last what, 9 months or so ... I think it's pretty clear that getting more HDR capability out is a priority.

There are also half a billion other priorities also ... like the whole bug/stability/performance thing app-wide that Manalov was brought in to get after. And which they've been chasing hard. I'll give them another few months on HDR monitoring 'native' in the Program monitor.

Neil

[Wehrfalke]

Hey Neil, 
 
I'm going to have to take this up. I have an XDR display and am pretty happy with it (knowing its limitations). But I was so hoping to use it for some SDR work with Premiere CC. And unfortunately again, the same or at least similar problems as when working with the iMac Pro display and Premiere CC. Working in Premiere seems fine, but after rendering, the image is brighter, the colors are off, it seems to be a gamma shift issue.  How did your pro colorists come to the conclusion that working in SDR with the XDR display and Premiere CC works? Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Is there a hidden option that I need to enable?
After applying the gamma correction effect to a layer above (15) the clip and rendering.... the result looks the same as in the Premiere preview, also with QuickTime Player and after uploading to Vimeo (Tested in Safari and Chrome) and on my OELD TV a more or less identical image. So what the heck is Premiere CC doing if not applying the layer with the correction effect? Maybe you or someone else can help?
I was so hoping to finally get a working SDR workflow with the XDR display and Premiere. Here is some more information about my system:

computer: Macbook Air M1
monitor: Apple XDR Display
OS: Big Sur 11.2
Premiere CC 14.9 & Premiere Pro Beta

cheers Falko

[R Neil Haugen]

The colorists noting that the Apple XDR display can actually be calibrated for decent SDR work ... were not comparing the image after export from Premiere by playing back within anything 'touched' by the Mac OS "ColorSync" color manglement utility. They were comparing it to the image played back through their BM/AJA kit to a proper grade-1 reference monitor. Outside of the Mac color controls.

The images tracked pretty tightly.

Now ... if playing on a Mac using most any player/browser, you will hit the problem that the Mac's color manglement app doesn't apply both the scene and display transforms as required for standards-compliant Rec.709. ColorSync does not apply the required display transform function to the image, for some reason only known within Apple and never publicly shared.

Plus ColorSync will apply what Apple calls "sRGB gamma" ... but actually it's between 1.95 and 1.96 mostly sort of. The proper gamma for Rec.709 in 'semi-dark room' (required for pro broadcast work) is 2.4, and 2.2 is specified for "bright room working".

Premiere Pro simply applies the full Rec.709 standards to the file on export ... the Mac mis-applies standards on playback ... so you can't see exactly what the b-cast standard image really is. Yea, that's a pain.

Neil

[Wehrfalke]

Hey Neil,

thanks for the reply. The things you are explainig aren't new to me, I've been reading a lot on the forum here regarding the issues between Premiere CC and the Apple ecosystem.

Why is it then that the file exportet from Adobe Premiere is looking exact the same on vimeo over my OELD-TV? The TV isn't in the Apple-Eco-System. Meaning the change that happening through the final rendering in Preniere is the problem, as I see it? So isn't there a possibillity that Adobe try to adress that issue via Software? 

Implement the Gamma-Shift I have to add per layer as function for apple users, that can be activated and deactivated?  

I've tried FinalCut X, but I can't work with that software, it's totaly differnet to my workflow with Premiere. But I tested it the other day and surprisingly the picture in the Software is nearly ideantical with the picture in Premiere. Again a hint that the preview inside Premiere CC, with the XDR preset works fine - the rendering inside Premiere is the problem. So as the LUT provides from Adobe to compensate for the shift is not longer working with Premiere 14.9 and Big Sur, I have to work it out via layer above the video. Hope Adobe reacts and provides a working LUT fast or even oimpement it into their software. Thanks for all your help here so far. 

[Andy 1968]

If your final outout is to ATSC broadcast complaint hardware then the Apple XDR monitor is not your best bet. There is a difference between RGB and YUV. You would want a broadcast compliant monitor capable of playing interlaced video since most broadcast is done at 1080i. That is why people use the AJA and BMD poducts. If your final output is to Digital Cenima or Netflix then that is a different standard altogether. Apple should not have compared a computer montitor to highend video monitors designed for broadcast standards and digital cinema standards. That is not to say the XDR monitor is no good. The video below might be worth watching.

[Wehrfalke]

Hey Andy1968. 

No, the most work I do isn't for broadcast. But the most work I do is in the Rec. 709 Color space. So 1080i isn't luckily a problem for me. Thanks for your video; I will have a look at it. 

[R Neil Haugen]

One of the most thorough, professionally done reviews of the XDR was very clear that it is NOT suited for grading HDR material at all, not even close to what is needed for pro b-cast HDR controls.

However ... he found that amazingly, the SDR/Rec.709 on the thing, when properly set, was vastly superior to any other Mac Retina monitor he'd tested. In fact, fairly close to qualifying for the official grade 1 broadcast monitor specs. Although you can get a full Flanders or Eizo grade 1 monitor for about the same cash. Which are both user-calibratable and at full b-cast grade 1 specs.

Neil

[Wehrfalke]

Hey,

thanks for your input. But again, the question, nobody so far could answer is:

Why is the shift happening when rendering out in Premiere to the HDD? When can Adobe adress the problem? maybe it's time for Adobe to speak up here? Hey @caroline_edits  maybe Adobe can at least update the LUT again so that it works under Big Sur and the latest Premiere version?

[R Neil Haugen]

I can't replicate. Any LUT I apply in the Export dialog gets applied to the export. Including that one.

So ... I don't really know what is going wrong in your system.

A couple things I'd like to see you try. Apply the LUT to a clip on a sequence, Export with the 're-import' option selected so it comes right back into the project.

Export with the LUT applied via the option for effects/LUT in the Export dialog, again re-importing into Premiere.

Then compare the two with the original un-LUT-ed clip on a timeline. What do you see?

Neil

[Wehrfalke]

Hey Neil,

sorry for coming back to you that late, but I was head under in a project, which is finished now. I've testet all your sugesstions, but always the same - a black clip. My system is fresh from the scratch and working fine. But as I remember, I'am not the first one experiencing that issue. Someone even try to make a new LUT (last page in the original thread), which worked, besides it crushes all the blacks, so it is no option for me.

https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro/quot-why-does-my-footage-look-darker-in-premiere-quot-co...

I'am wondering that Adobe noticed that issue before, comes with solution - also it is really not a solution for the coming years - and then when it doesn't work any longer, no response. 

[R Neil Haugen]

That LUT is only ... ever ... a means to get a file out from PrPro that will play 'normally' on the user's own ColorSync managed system. Period, end of story, they warn about that in the original post they gave on it.

It is never ever to be used when sending something out to a cross-platform or broadcast/streaming use deliverable. So if you are doing pro work for a client, you should never, ever in your wildest dreams apply that export LUT anyway.

Because the only thing it fixes is it makes the file "look the same" on that ColorSync mangled computer outside of PrPro. On any normal or properly color managed system it will be too dark and saturated.

Adobe cannot fix the bad color management choices Apple made in ColorSync. Neither can BlackMagic's Resolve, which takes another tack to get around the issue.

They created an export option called Rec709A ... an yes, A specifically for Apple. It applies a different NLC tag to the file header that 'tricks' ColorSync into displaying the file properly.

However, just like the Adobe LUT, it means that on any non-ColorSync managed system the file is ... you guessed it! ... too dark and saturated.

There ain't no way around the poor color managment settings in ColorSync, and it ain't the fault of Adobe or BlackMagic.

Neil

[Wehrfalke]

Neil,

maybe you should reread my post from above, instead of charching in the wrong dirction. The files I get out with the LUT (when it worked) where identical on vimeo, QuickTime Player and my color proofed OELD from Panasonic. So right now it's a problem of the not working LUT, nothing else. The XDR Display handles the Color Space differently, maybe you mix things up here.

Why should there be no way around the "poor" color management? Did you have special knowledge here, enlighten us? Just releax and don't get fired up about Apple all the time. I really appreciate your help and from everyone else, but finding a solution here would be great, instead of shiftig the blame always to one side. Have a good day.

Falko

[R Neil Haugen]

Actually read the information, yea it's long an boring. Because it isn't a rant about Apple, it's about the actual color managment steps they mis-applied. I work for and with colorists daily, most of whom are heavy Mac people. It's from them that I get my information.

They've spent more in color management hardware and software than most editors spend on their entire computer setup. And they can't get around the Mac ColorSync mis-application of standards.

BlackMagic can't either. Their attempt is creating that Rec709A export option, which puts a different NLC tag in the file header. So on a ColorSync managed system, the file 'plays' correctly. And like Adobe's LUT, on any normally managed system is dark and over saturated.

And as far as the XDR display ... that's kinda interesting. I've seen a review that was highly and correctly technically done that noted that though it's crap for b-cast HDR work (way too much dark-blooming) it was the only Mac monitor that could actually come pretty close if set correctly to Rec.709 b-cast standards.

I've seen some discussions of colorists trying to use it for Rec709, as a client or someone else in their shop had one. If you know how to change the settings in the OS or monitor, it can be made to work. I don't recall what those changes are, unfortunately.

And some that tried just gave up anyway.

Neil

[Wehrfalke]

Hey Neil,

unfortunately you still haven't answered my technical question and just keep listing the things you've already written here several times in the forum. Are you a technician who has insight into programming? I spoke with an Apple technician, there it was quite clear if Adobe the computer. 709 color space is supported, the corresponding preset of the XDR display exact this. 

And yes, I had noticed in tests that in the program itself (compared to Final Cut Pro) a more or less identical image is displayed. So the preview in Premiere Pro works while I'm editing. The problem starts when I render to the HDD. 

After that the image is too bright, saturation etc is not correct. And yes, with the LUT that Adobe provided, I got the result that I saw in the edit. And - believe it or not - it looked the same on Vimeo, on a Panasonic OELD and there is no color management from Apple behind these options. 

So simplified, it's exactly the output from Premiere that's the problem. If you now have this under control with the LUT, it would be nice to provide this LUT again for the current Macs under Big Sur- because currently it doesn't work. And if you don't habe the exact setup as me, I'am wondering who you want to replicate the problem?

Can you help me with this problem? If not, no problem, but then should perhaps an Adobe technician help out, who has other insights into the matter - don't want to sound disrespectful. Thank you for your help so far. 

with regards, Falko

[R Neil Haugen]

You still aren't understanding the issue.

Premiere Pro does apply the full Rec.709 standards, the Apple color management utility ColorSync does not. And yes, that utility affects every application, browser, and player on a Mac.

Easily demonstrated on those with Macs and Retinas and an i/o device from BlackMagic or AJA, while also sending a signal to a proper reference monitor. As many of the colorists I know have.

Two different images of the same image in the same app. The one viewed via the i/o breakout box is as would be seen in PrPro, the one on the Retina monitor as you describe the exports from PrPro on your machine.

The image within PrPro with 'display color management' on displayed on the Retina screen, is the same image as the one on the reference monitor via the i/o box.

Which is the correct view of a Rec.709 media.

And that same image, a totally correctly created Rec.709 file, will show exactly the problems you are having on their Mac machine outside PrPro through any browser, player, or app.

It is the OS here that is the issue, sadly. The ColorSync color management utility that runs all image display on the Macs.

And I've spent hours with the top Adobe color people on this, hours with some major colorists. The guys I get paid to teach PrPro coloring for are the colorists that Dolby Labs hired to produce their entire video series on using DolbyVision for grading and deliverables to Netflix, Disney, the broadcast networks, everything.

They paid me to teach this at NAB2019, in the Flanders/MixingLight booth. Flanders makes the grade-1 reference monintors used by so many colorists. That presentation came after hours spent with Francis Crossman of the Adobe color team both via phone/zoom and in person at NAB, plus questions to Lars Borg, their top color scientist.

Everything then run through Patrick Inhofer and Robbie Carman of MixingLight, two highly respected colorists/teachers of pro colorists for years. Both Mac people. And part of the group of 3-4 people that made the DolbyVision video series for Dolby.

I taught between Alexis Van Hurkman (he didn't "write the book", he's written most of the major books on color grading) and the guy from Dolbyvision, the latter explaining how a colorist gets started certifying for DolbyVision deliverables. Both watched my half-hour program, and said it both answered a lot a questions and confirmed their own thoughts on the problem.

If Alexis Van Hurkman and that guy from Dolby can't 'solve' the Mac CM issue, it's really an issue.

Well ... they solve it the way colorists always deal with badly mis-managed color on most screens, actually. You evaluate color on a screen that you know is absolutely tight to CM standards because you've tested it with calibration and profiling software. And that's all you can do.

You cannot fix mis-applied CM. Ever. No one can, not Adobe, not BlackMagic, not no one not no how.

And again ... Resolve has the same issue. Which is NOT Adobe. Because the issue is within the Mac. Sorry to be so repetitive, but that is where the issue comes.

Period.

Neil

[Andy 1968]

Wehrfalke,

The video below might offer a solution. All software programs handle 709 color space different. What you see on the computer screen using DaVinic Resolve may not be what you seen on a Quicktime Player or YouTube. That being said there is a big difference between Premiere Pro showing correct color to broadcast complaint hardware or digital cinema specs and having the rendered video file look good on Vimeo, Youtube or Quicktime Player. Are you rendering 10 bit h.264, 8 bit h.265 or Pro Res? Video codecs can have a color shift. The Intensity Shuttle will look 100% correct on broadcast compliant hardware using Premiere Pro if you export to HDV tapes. HDV tape is broadcast compliant color space. Your computer monitor will look a lot different from a NTSC or ATSC broadcast compliant monitors. Back in 1998 it was frustrating to output to Betacam and 3/4" tapes and have perfect broadcasts colors yet the client might want you to email a video clip that will look horrible when played on a  Quicktime Player. Once Adobe offered the adjustment layer you could very easily adjust gamma and make slight color corrections for playing back broadcast compliant colors to Vimeo, Youtube and Quick Time Players. 

[Andy 1968]

I am glad you watched the video. I was letting people know 1080i and 720p 60 are the broadcast standards for local TV stations. There is no 4K 60P with ATSC. ATSC 3.0 does support 4K but very few stations broadcast as ATSC 3.0 standards as of now. I admit most new TVs support ATSC 3.0 and the numbers for ATSC 3.0 broadcasts will grow over time until standard ATSC broadcasting is a thing of the past. There was an ATSC 2.0 standard but it was never implemented.