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Live Text Templates that were working in PPro 2018 are not linking in PPro 2019

Enthusiast ,
Oct 25, 2018

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We have over 150 LTTs in a PPro project, most of them referencing the same Comp in an AE file.

They worked fine in PPro 2018, but since upgrading to PPRo and AE 2019 they no longer function.

The PPro and AE project files have not changed names, nor have they been moved.

LTTs show "Media Pending" indefinitely until you launch the AE project on which the LTTs are sourced.

Once the AE project is loaded there is a very long delay, and eventually an error message: "Unknown Exception" at which point back in PPro the LTTs fail to "Media Offline"

Re-linking an offline LTT using PPro > Menu > File > Link Media... to the AE file returns to "Media Pending" and then after a long delay triggers another "Unknown Exception" in AE and fails back to "Media Offline"

Do I have to give up on 2019 to continue using LTTs?

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Live Text Templates that were working in PPro 2018 are not linking in PPro 2019

Enthusiast ,
Oct 25, 2018

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We have over 150 LTTs in a PPro project, most of them referencing the same Comp in an AE file.

They worked fine in PPro 2018, but since upgrading to PPRo and AE 2019 they no longer function.

The PPro and AE project files have not changed names, nor have they been moved.

LTTs show "Media Pending" indefinitely until you launch the AE project on which the LTTs are sourced.

Once the AE project is loaded there is a very long delay, and eventually an error message: "Unknown Exception" at which point back in PPro the LTTs fail to "Media Offline"

Re-linking an offline LTT using PPro > Menu > File > Link Media... to the AE file returns to "Media Pending" and then after a long delay triggers another "Unknown Exception" in AE and fails back to "Media Offline"

Do I have to give up on 2019 to continue using LTTs?

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Oct 25, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 01, 2018

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Premiopolis,

Sorry for this issue. Can you please file your bug here? After Effects: Hot (1002 ideas) – Adobe video & audio apps I hope we can get a fix for you. In the meantime, I'll search for a possible workaround for you.

Do I have to give up on 2019 to continue using LTTs?

While I don't know of any official position, Live Text templates are not the wave of the future; Motion Graphics templates are. That's where the team and product management are putting the most work into.

Though you've done a lot of development for Live Text templates, you might want to start thinking about moving your most commonly used templates over to Motion Graphics templates. I know that there are certain advantages to using Live Text templates over Motion Graphics templates, but I"m just giving you my best advice and opinion.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Thanks,

Kevin

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Nov 01, 2018 0
Enthusiast ,
Nov 01, 2018

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Kevin-Monahan  wrote

Premiopolis,

Sorry for this issue. Can you please file your bug here? After Effects: Hot (1002 ideas) – Adobe video & audio apps I hope we can get a fix for you. In the meantime, I'll search for a possible workaround for you.

Thanks Kevin-Monahan.  Will do.

Though you've done a lot of development for Live Text templates, you might want to start thinking about moving your most commonly used templates over to Motion Graphics templates. I know that there are certain advantages to using Live Text templates over Motion Graphics templates, but I"m just giving you my best advice and opinion.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Regarding the switch to MOGRTS, the reason we're using LTTs over MOGRTS: ease and fluency of implementation.

Short version: changes made to LTTs on the After Effects side update almost immediately to all PPro sequences making use of them.

MOGRTS require a series of steps and updates both on the AE and PPro side requires many more steps and a lot of additional time.

The faster workflow achieved by LTTs accommodates not only the demands of high-paced production environments but also the iterative nature of the creative process itself.

If MOGRTS accommodated a workflow process as efficient as LTTs we'd have made the switch long ago.

The MOGRT features are great, but the time lost to the multi-step implementation process is what's keeping us with LTTs

Can we convince the Adobe Dev teams to either:

a) Continue and expand support for LTTs?

  or

b) Re-think the MOGRT AE-to-PPro workflow to make it as easy, fluent, and immediate as that of LTTs?

More here...

https://forums.adobe.com/message/9866375#9866375

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Nov 01, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 01, 2018

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Hi Premiopolis,

Can we convince the Adobe Dev teams to either:

a) Continue and expand support for LTTs?

  or

b) Re-think the MOGRT AE-to-PPro workflow to make it as easy, fluent, and immediate as that of LTTs?

I think the best course of action you can take is to state your case on User Voice since our Dev Team is much more active then they are in the forums. I will speak with the Product Mgr. about this the next time we meet, as well.

Thanks,

Kevin

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Nov 01, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 01, 2018

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If you use shared CC libraries, mogrts from Ae are a swiftly implemented item.

You have say your branding in a graphic ... logo items, fonts, colors, and all. Your editors use from their CC shared library all branded graphics.

Corporate decides to change the color, say. So ... in Ae, you open that mogrt, change the color, then save it with the same name to those shared libraries.

Instantly, all editors have the new version. The old version is gone. With nothing more than saving the new version after re-working it in Ae.

That's ... really pretty slick in all.

Jarle Leirpoll wrote a slick ebook about the Ae-PrPro mogrts creation and use, and ... I was the proof-reader for it. While doing the checking of all his work, Adobe was pleased enough with the book that they have it now on their site ... and it is a fantastic primer on the whole mogrts thing. Jarle was one of the people ( there were a couple others also!) who took an earlier graphics idea in Ae, ran with it to do things the developers had never thought of, and ... convinced them to rethink what they were doing. Hence ... mogrts.

Leirpoll ebook, Making Mogrts: https://adobe.ly/makemogrts

Neil

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Nov 01, 2018 0
Enthusiast ,
Nov 01, 2018

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Kevin-Monahan  wrote

Hi Premiopolis,

Can we convince the Adobe Dev teams to either:

a) Continue and expand support for LTTs?

  or

b) Re-think the MOGRT AE-to-PPro workflow to make it as easy, fluent, and immediate as that of LTTs?

I think the best course of action you can take is to state your case on User Voice since our Dev Team is much more active then they are in the forums. I will speak with the Product Mgr. about this the next time we meet, as well.

Thanks,

Kevin

Already posted.  Thanks.

Corporate decides to change the color, say. So ... in Ae, you open that mogrt, change the color, then save it with the same name to those shared libraries.

Instantly, all editors have the new version. The old version is gone. With nothing more than saving the new version after re-working it in Ae.

Neil

Thanks Neil.  Sounds promising.

My experience with the MOGRTS and the Essential Graphics Panel (EGP) was that you need to

     1) Do the work in AE

     2) Export from AE through the EGP.

     3) Import into PPro through the EGP

     4) Import to the PPro project from the PPro EGP in

     5) Replace track items in timelines -- not automatic.

Whereas for LTTs

     1) Do the work in AE

     2) Save in AE.  Done.  All PPro project Items, timeline items across all projects, are already updated.

I haven't re-visited the MOGRT workflow lately.  Do shared libraries really eliminate any / all of the above steps?  Are they, in fact, as easy as easy as LTTs?

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Nov 01, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 01, 2018

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Premiopolis  wrote

Already posted.  Thanks.

I upvoted. Anyone else that has this issue, please also upvote here: Live Text Templates that were working in PPro 2018 are not linking in PPro 2019 – Adobe video & audi...

Regards,
Kevin

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Nov 01, 2018 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 01, 2018

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You state the process as it is, but only if you go "importing" into the EGP panel. Yea, too many steps.

The process I recommend uses the CC Libraries instead. All users working from the shared libraries now have the updated graphic, the old one is gone. Without doing anything. You can access the Libraries from either the Libraries panel or via the EGP panel, just setting which Library to use. All updated mogrts are instantly updated.

I don't know that it would apply this to old projects that haven't been opened ... but as soon as you opened them, the mogrt would be the new one.

Neil

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Nov 01, 2018 0
Enthusiast ,
Nov 01, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  wrote

You state the process as it is, but only if you go "importing" into the EGP panel. Yea, too many steps.

The process I recommend uses the CC Libraries instead. All users working from the shared libraries now have the updated graphic, the old one is gone. Without doing anything. You can access the Libraries from either the Libraries panel or via the EGP panel, just setting which Library to use. All updated mogrts are instantly updated.

Ok, so I'm looking at a just-updated MOGRT, exported from AE via EGP to the shared library, and indeed, instantly there it is in the library over in PPro.

Now, already this is more steps than the LTT approach.  By way of comparison:

     - LTT: make change, hit save.  Done.

     - MOGRT: Make change, 1) hit save;  2) (sometimes) Load to EGP;  3) Export from the EGP;  4) Choose desination

but at least it's there, faster than the process I described above.  So already the Library approach you describe seems to be a boost in speed, but...

...the newly-arrived MOGRT, sitting in the Library doesn't automatically update all timeline instances the MOGRT?

Is there a way to make that happen?

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Nov 01, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 01, 2018

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Jarle Leirpoll​ would be a good one to answer that ...

Neil

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Nov 01, 2018 0
Contributor ,
Nov 02, 2018

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There's no way to make the new MOGRT automatically update all timeline instances. That would go against Premiere Pro's "do no harm" philosophy: Nothing should be changed in the timeline unless you specifically ask Premiere to do it.

If you want to update all the instances, there's one more step:

Select all the instances in the timeline and Alt-drag the new MOGRT onto one of them.

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Nov 02, 2018 0
Enthusiast ,
Nov 02, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jarle+Leirpoll  wrote

There's no way to make the new MOGRT automatically update all timeline instances. That would go against Premiere Pro's "do no harm" philosophy: Nothing should be changed in the timeline unless you specifically ask Premiere to do it.

Thanks Jarle.  I think the 'do no harm' notion in this context might be, to a significant extent, relative.

Consider, for instance, the logic around PPro Project Items:

If you color correct a source clip (aka master clip or 'project item), as opposed to a timeline clip, you're affecting the color for all timeline instances that make us of that source clip.  For some that's real harm done: "I only wanted to change instances in these edits, and, crap, I've affected everything".  For others quite the opposite of harm, that's a solution to a workflow challenge.

Imagine the following scenario: We were doing a 60-spot campaign for a car company, each with 10 lower 3rds.  That's 600 unique lower 3rds, built on 3 different "templates".  ("Templates" in quotes because 1, no one used the term, and 2, we were on Avid using Title Tool).  About 300 lower 3rds into the job, an executive decides he wants changes to the font.  5 edit bays along with 5 editors become Title Tool emergency center for a day and a half.

MOGRTs would have reduced this problem considerably, but still leave you with a real challenge: selecting only those titles in the timeline associated with the template for the alt-drag.  You could dedicate templates to a distinct track, or mobilize a clever naming convention or even code up some ExtendScript, but no matter what your team has the challenge of potentially making mistakes each time you need to make a template update.

LTTs by contrast reduce this challenge to a shrug: Executive asks for a style change, AE artist makes the change, hits save and like magic, all timeline instances are updated.  For the 600 titles described above, that's not harm done.  That's a solution to a workflow challenge.

What I hope to impress on Adobe here: It is increasingly common (and btw natural to the creative process), to design graphic elements iteratively: start with an un-styled element, and progressively elaborate on it throughout the post-process.  Production companies and execs expect and take great sadistic pride in making lots of changes to lower 3rds toward the end of the post-production process.  (The above-mentioned executive, for instance, demanded several more style changes.  Hundreds of lost hours later, an AE was ultimately humiliated in front of everyone and fired for making 2 typos after staying up all night trying to accommodate)  LTTs are far more efficient than MOGRTs at reducing, if not the sadism, at least the masochism.

Dear Adobe: Please recognize the power unleashed by the LTT architecture and recognize that MOGRTS, to date, are not yet a comparable alternative.

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Nov 02, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 02, 2018

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You have my complete sympathy ...

Neil

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Nov 02, 2018 0
Contributor ,
Nov 03, 2018

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Premiopolis, when you color correct on a Master Clip, you are in fact specifically telling Premiere to do global changes, so what I said about "do no harm" still applies.

I understand your frustration, but writing about it here does not help. Adding a feature request on the feedback pages does help: Premiere Pro: Hot (3053 ideas) – Adobe video & audio apps

If you make a feature request for an option to make MOGRTs auto-update all instances, and give us the link here, I think we all will support it. If you don't, the way Premiere handles MOGRTs may not change.

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Nov 03, 2018 0
Enthusiast ,
Nov 04, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jarle+Leirpoll  wrote

Adding a feature request on the feedback pages does help: Premiere Pro: Hot (3053 ideas) – Adobe video & audio apps

If you make a feature request for an option to make MOGRTs auto-update all instances, and give us the link here, I think we all will support it. If you don't, the way Premiere handles MOGRTs may not change.

Happy to.  Thanks Jarle.

Posted here: MOGRT - Add option to auto-update all timeline instances. – Adobe video & audio apps

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Nov 04, 2018 0
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Nov 05, 2018

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Thanks Premiopolis, I have voted.

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Nov 05, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 05, 2018

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Premiopolis,

What I hope to impress on Adobe here...

Whatever case you're tying to make, kindly do so on User Voice. These forums are specifically for solving technical issues, not for feature requests or bug reports. Though a member of the dev team is involved in this discussion, you are still better off making the case for a request like this on User Voice, perhaps, by adding comments to your existing UV thread.

I just don't want you to waste your time here.

Thanks,
Kevin

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Nov 05, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 05, 2018

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This should already work. When you have several instances of the same mogrt in your timeline and update the mogrt in Ae and re-export it, Premiere will ask you if you want to update all graphics in the timeline when you alt/option drag from the EGP to a graphic in the timeline.

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Nov 05, 2018 1
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Nov 05, 2018

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Annika, the OP has explained that this behavior creates a lot of extra work if the MOGRT has been used 600 times in multiple timelines. So the request is for a way to bypass this.

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Nov 05, 2018 0
Enthusiast ,
Nov 05, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Annika+Koenig  wrote

This should already work. When you have several instances of the same mogrt in your timeline and update the mogrt in Ae and re-export it, Premiere will ask you if you want to update all graphics in the timeline when you alt/option drag from the EGP to a graphic in the timeline.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jarle+Leirpoll  wrote

Annika, the OP has explained that this behavior creates a lot of extra work if the MOGRT has been used 600 times in multiple timelines. So the request is for a way to bypass this.

On a second-read of Annika's reply: "when you drag from the EGP to a graphic in the timeline" -- singular.

So, Annika, do I have this correct?  When you drag to a single timeline instance, you're referring to the popup feature: "Multiple Matching Graphics Detected"  I was not aware of this feature.

Popup.png

I tested, and so far so good.  Jarle, does that speak to the issue you (and I) were raising?

It doesn't do exactly what LTT changes do -- where changing the AE comp affects all PPro timeline instances across all sequences, across all projects in one fell swoop, instantly with one step, but...  as Jarle points out, that global updating can be disruptive to workflows that haven't planned for it.  (When you plan for the LTT / everything changes approach, it's not a problem and is, in fact a huge efficiency boost -- except in one key and important aspect: older versions of sequences: It's difficult if not impossible to keep the LTT approach from impacting your 'older versions')

Annika's "Drag from EGP to a single MOGRT in the timeline" approach solves the 'old versions' issue.

The down-side is you have of "Drag to Single Instance" for each sequence you want updated.

That's to some extent an efficiency loss over LTTs, but it's nonetheless pretty fast, and you do get more articulate control over what is and what is not impacted by MOGRT updates.

I haven't done enough real-world testing to see limitations / nuances of how Annika's approach will work, but first impression is that for the 60-spot / 600-Lower-3rds project I was describing, it would have been an adequate, if not excellent solution.

Jarle, I'm curious your thoughts.  Does this evolve the feature request to "One additional feature so that all matching instances in all sequences of the current project are updated by the Alt- or Option-Drag to single timeline instance"?

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Nov 05, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 05, 2018

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While the option to do this ​across all projects​ can be a dangerous thing ... there are times from a group process this is going to be very useful. The question becomes, perhaps, ​who​ ... should the editor be the one to apply this across all instances/projects, or ... the creator of the mogrt in Ae?

Hmmm.

Neil

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Nov 05, 2018

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Premiopolis, it turns out Annika is right! Yay!

Funny thing is, I just checked my book, and it turns out I have actually written about this on page 116.

https://premierepro.net/making-mogrts/

So I already knew this, at least i did a few weeks ago, but had a brain fart. Embarrassing!

Sorry to create confusion here.

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Nov 05, 2018 1
Enthusiast ,
Nov 05, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jarle+Leirpoll  wrote

Premiopolis, it turns out Annika is right! Yay!

Funny thing is, I just checked my book, and it turns out I have actually written about this on page 116.

https://premierepro.net/making-mogrts/

So I already knew this, at least i did a few weeks ago, but had a brain fart. Embarrassing!

Sorry to create confusion here.

At least you have an excuse.  Every forty weeks I have to re-look up the word "forty" to -- yet again -- remind myself it's not spelled "fourty".

R Neil Haugen

While the option to do this across all projects can be a dangerous thing ... there are times from a group process this is going to be very useful. The question becomes, perhaps, who ... should the editor be the one to apply this across all instances/projects, or ... the creator of the mogrt in Ae?

Ideally the option is left open.  Who controls the updating should be dependent on what is the most efficient/effective process given the idiosyncrasies of the project at hand.

Kevin-Monahan

Whatever case you're tying to make, kindly do so on User Voice. These forums are specifically for solving technical issues, not for feature requests or bug reports. Though a member of the dev team is involved in this discussion, you are still better off making the case for a request like this on User Voice, perhaps, by adding comments to your existing UV thread.

Duly Noted.  But it is helpful to hash out the details here with the insights and experience of other editors...

Was just speaking with a fellow editor and we came up with the following thought for "User Voice"...

In addition to the solution communicated above by Annika (i.e. Alt-/Option-Drag MOGRT from EGP to Single Timeline Instance) -- the following improvement:

Feature where PPro allows user to drag multiple MOGRTs from the EGP to multiple selected sequences.  So you're dragging from EGP not to timeline instance, but to multiple selected sequences in a bin.  In so doing PPro would look for matches between the MOGRTs selected from the EGP, and MOGRT instances in all the selected sequences and ask if you want to replace them all.  I haven't thought this through systematically yet.  It might be a disaster of an idea, but it also might be an extremely empowering / efficient way to manage MOGRT updates, building off the "Annika method": Granular control and ability to batch update a lot of graphics quickly and efficiently.  If it works, it would, for my taste, give MOGRTs a real advantage over LTTs when it comes to updating texted graphics in complex workflows.

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Nov 05, 2018 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 05, 2018

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Kevin-Monahan

Whatever case you're tying to make, kindly do so on User Voice. These forums are specifically for solving technical issues, not for feature requests or bug reports. Though a member of the dev team is involved in this discussion, you are still better off making the case for a request like this on User Voice, perhaps, by adding comments to your existing UV thread.

Duly Noted.  But it is helpful to hash out the details here with the insights and experience of other editors...

Great. Just make sure to make sure that the info you think is pertinent enough to share with engineering be copied on the User Voice site. There is no "smart connection" between the two sites, so none of the info you impart to "Adobe" will ever be transferred from forums to UV unless you do so manually. Perhaps in the future, I hope.

Thanks,
Kevin

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