LOCKED: GPU color range 16-235 vs. 0-255 & Video Limiter to fix washed out export.

[Letty2019]

Hello, I'm having that same color problem it seems everybody in the Adobe world is having, the export is a little bright and washed out. (exporting to bluray for hdtv, H.264)  Video looks fine in timeline, washed out after exporting to disc.  I'm on a PC, my GPU at 16-235 color range (Nvidia)

I've sifted thru dozens of blogs and videos.   And also saw the one here about using the QT Gamma Compensation.cube  LUT.

I'm not using Color Management, because my computer monitor is calibrated rec709 2.4 gamma  (as per Neil's advice in his video)

Neil said to set my GPU color range to 16-235 for rec709 broadcast, but I've read other blogs stating Premiere uses 0-255.... and Ann likes 0-255 while using a video limiter.  

Which do you think is best:

A) GPU 0-255 and use Video Limiter 

B) GPU 0-255 , Video Limiter and LUT: QT Gamma Compensation.cube

C) GPU 16-235 and Video Limiter

D) GPU 16-235, Video Limiter and LUT: QT Gamma Compensation.cube

E) Or your own configuration _______________________________________.

Thank you for your thoughts and advice.

Letty

[basil1891]

monitor is calibrated rec709 24.gamma ... set my GPU color range to 16-235 ...

Just a reminder about the obvious, but still - GPU/Monitor levels must correspond to those used for calibration, otherwise all that calibration become irrelevant.

[Letty2019]

sorry, I don't understand.  When I calibrated the monitor using x-rite calibration, it never required any settings about the gpu color range.   I set the gpu at 16-235 and then calibrated the monitor, rec.709 2.4 gamma.  Is that what you mean?  sorry, I'm lost.

[basil1891]

I set the gpu at 16-235 and then calibrated the monitor. Ok. Now if you switch GPU output to 0-255 the calibration become irrelevant. You have to to do it again with new settings.

[Letty2019]

oh, ok.  gotcha.  For now I'm leaving at 16-235, and will wait to hear back on my original question.  Thanks much!

[Andy 1968]

I know a lot of Apple users want their renders to look good on an iMac dislpay using the Quick Time player. It would be better to go to your local library and see what it looks like on a Windows PC. That being said you can compensate for gamma shift and slight color correction of the final output very easy as seen in the video below. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7EGNJop_HE

[Letty2019]

Thanks, but he appears to be changing the gamma just by 'eyeballing' it.   I was looking for a concrete fix with confirmation of the multiple choices in the main post.  Trying to find out if the gpu color range or lut combination would be best.  Thanks for the post though.  

Best,

Letty

[Letty2019]

I might have to do this your way in the video, because there is so much conflicting info about luts and gpu color ranges, it's just ONE BIG MESS.   I'm so confused and so dissapointed with this software. 

[Andy 1968]

Are you using a Mac?

Premire Pro looks correct when using the third party hardware from AJA, Matrox and BD. The video below will demonstrate how this is done about half way through. That being said you would have to buy the Intenisty Shuttle used. The Intensity Shuttle is NTSC and ATSC compliant but not ATSC 3.0 compliant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLUxRkPMdA&t=13s

[Letty2019]

No Mac.   Using pc.

sorry, I didn't understand your video, I wasn't doing a tape transfer.  Just regular export to disc using Media Encoder.

[Andy 1968]

You need to watch the video again. In the second half of the video I demonstrated burning Blu-ray disk. I stated you needed to watch second half in my prior post.

[basil1891]

It can be just this: Why black level difference - HW vs SW export? - Adobe Support Community - 11824047

[Letty2019]

so for my workflow, I should pick another preset, and not use the H.264  for bluray creation?

[basil1891]

Just try Software encoder instead of HW-one

[chrisw44157881]

Additionally, the type of codec you are using determines how premiere interprets it as well.

->see here the complicated chart of "interpretated gamma per software program"

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oNa9LjnNQX5ALohgo96BheRRhPgS4qWZyNWv4_Dk98A/edit?usp=sharing

But essentially premiere is hard coded to 0-255. the quicktime lut is only for the gamma from premiere's native 2.4 to 1.96 for quicktime. The legal vs luma depends on how you want to setup your gpu preferences for viewing video outside premiere.

Like I said, that depends on how the codecs are interpreted by various media players. some even let you choose a dropdown like mpc-hc. but essentially, if you can import the file back into premiere and it looks ok, then that's all you can really do there. after that, you're doing the funky chicken burning in gamma/legal conversions to try to get it to look mostly the same for most people.

(Most) is the key here as no one uses the same OS/ web browser.  Now, it would be a lot simpler if you were exporting to a known format such as blu-ray or DCP as those have definitive specifications. Some video cloud services such as youtube also read the gamma tag info of the codec(I know resolve let's you burn in a gamma tag into the NACLC metadata.) which is usually 2.2 or 1.96.

Sorry to tell you this but it hasn't really gotten any better over the years. Most users have color management turned off in their web browsers anyway.

[Letty2019]

Nice info, thank you,.... but yes, I'm only concerned about HDTV.  (don't care about internet or players)  What is your advice for my work flow specs?

Neil says I should keep my video card at 16-235... and you are saying PPro wants 0-255 ?  But what about using that LUT:  QT Gamma Compensation.cube  ?  Is that LUT only for the QuickTime usage?

I just wish there could be a way to get what I see in PPro timelime on my HDTV.    I don't even care if the colors don't match 100% perfect, I'm more concerned about the brightness levels.  I want the darks and lights to match best as possible.

Round and round I go.  Still hard to believe PPro has been around all these years, they still don't have a simple one click color button for standard 709 color.  It's insane.  

Thanks for your advice on this issue.  Neil really knows his stuff, so I want to leave my gpu at 16-235, but can't figure out to use the LUT or not or ???  I didn't want to 'eyeball' it and change the gamma manually like in that video above, but now I'm thinking, what choice is there?  That LUT seems to be for quicktimers.  round and round.

Does adobe have a position on all this color mumbo jumbo?  You'd think they would be able to tell us what to do, after all, it's their software.  What a mess.

[chrisw44157881]

I believe Neil uses an external Decklink device so he travels along different rules. HDTV is 16-235 BT1886. I'd stick to that spec as much as possible imho. For example, if you're using Prores, it is already is interpret by premiere as 16-235. Chrome mostly uses close to 1.96 gamma so that's another area people would use that lut for.

Ok, I just re-read your original post. your monitor may be calibrated but Premiere doesn't "see" the calibration unless it's a LUT or you pushed the calibration into an .icc and turned on Premiere's color management. I thnk you're grading blind right now.

[Letty2019]

yikes.

So how would you do my work flow?  Just want it to look fine on HDTV,  don't care about internet or browsers.

1) gpu 16-235 or 0-255 ?

2) calibrate computer monitor to rec.709gamma 2.4   or   BT1886 gamma___ ?

3) export from PPro (to make a bluray disc)  using: H.263  or  ______ ?

4) use or not use that Adobe LUT for QT users.

(Im not using color management, because monitor is calibrated using an ICC made from X-rite.

If there is no CM, doesn't PPro simply use the system's ICC profile I installed?)

That's the final 4 part Jeopardy question.  

Thanks very much for your advice.

Letty

[chrisw44157881]

1. if not using a decklink card, use 0-255. if viewing outside premiere and the external players do not have a 16-235 option, temporarily enable 16-235(if that's the codec's native range)
2. use rec. 709. The BT 1886 was for low contrast black monitors that can't represent shadows but was abandoned by most colorists due to raising the 'grading' of blacks.
3. keep to blu-ray specs MPEG-4 AVC H.264 (High Profile and Main Profile).
Linear PCM (LPCM) Dolby Digital
Adobe media encoder h.264 bluray dropdown
4. Bluray is a spec, so no QT lut.
Turn on color management. Premiere will use your .icc file.
With cm off, premiere doesn't use any .icc.
You will need to replace the default system .icc with the calibrated one.(make sure it is calibrated to rec 709, gamma 2.4, 100 nits, D65)

[Letty2019]

Ok, this is what I got from your list.... 

1) set GPU to 0-255  (even though Neil says 16-235)

2) use rec 709

3) use h.264 bluray to export in media encoder.

4) no QT lut.

5) turn ON color management so PPro will access the calibrated ICC profile.

Is that a lock?

I'm just concerned about the 0-255 gpu setting.  Neil says no, you say yes.  Please help!  

Thanks,

Letty

[Andy 1968]

Letty,

You really need to invest in 3rd party hardware if you want to work with broadcast compliant hardware (TVs and Blu-ray players).

The video below demonstrates this about halfway through.

[movie deleted by mod; double posting]

[Letty2019]

sorry, I still don't get the application.  It converts the signal from the computer and what is the target? The monitor?  

[Andy 1968]

You need to watch the seconds half of the video. I am outputting the video to a TV using the Intenisty Shuttle. That is what you need to do in order to get accurate color space on broadcast equipment (TV Blur-ray) That being said what software are you using to author the Blu-ray disk?

[R Neil Haugen]

No, I'm not using a Decklink card. Straight outta the GPU, in my cast a 2080Ti.

Yea, the card, the monitor (if it has settings) and the apps have to agree. For Nvidia cards, you can tell it to control the video levels (use the Nvidia setting) or not ... (use the application setting). I've actually got that set to use the app's setting now.

Premiere is hard-coded to assume all 'normal' Rec.709 files are 'legal', meaning 16-235. The exceptions being of course the 4:4:4:4 RGB files such as the DPX sequences and one of the DNx variants, a couple others.

If your monitor has an internal setting it should either be for "legal" (16-235) or 'auto'.

Note, this DOES NOT mean that the monitor will show a Rec.709 video within 16-235, just that it 'knows' Rec.709 media will come in at 16-235 and it should remap on the display to 0-255.

In Resolve's color management, nearly everyone should leave the Rec.709 options to 'auto'.

Neil

[basil1891]

If your monitor has an internal setting it should either be for "legal" (16-235) or 'auto'.  In my case GPU hdmi-output and monitor hdmi-input both are forced as 0-255.  All because 'auto' in the monitor do not recognize full 0-255 range and crushes blacks.