Need to change Caption Stream from CEA-608 to CEA-708

Explorer ,
Jan 28, 2015

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I'm getting .scc files from a captioning service for a half-hour show I'm working on.  The show is now being edited in 1080i, but the CC files are listed in Premiere as 720x480.  Is there an easy way to change it, or should I just right-click on the track in the timeline and select "Scale to Frame Size."  Also, one of the stations airing the show said I need to use the CEA-708 Caption Stream.  The .scc files all indicate they are CEA-608.  I've talked to the people at the captioning service, and they're going to look into how they can change their captioning from 608 to 708.  But in the meantime, I need to change some captions that have already been done.  Is there any way to change the caption stream?  I saw a post from October 2014 that told how to change from 708 to 608, but I need to go the other way.  Any ideas that don't involve re-typing the entire caption file?

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Explorer ,
Jan 28, 2015

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OK, I just found out that I can take the .scc file and export just it from Premiere as an .xml file, then make four changes to the .xml file to convert it to a CEA-708 file.  If you use a text editor, like Notepad++, you can do the change with just a few modifications to the .xml file...

Line 2 - Find the two places in this line that say '608' and change them to '708.'  Then, find the first place in the code that says "schemas/2052-1/2010/" and change the '2010' to '2013.'  Leave the second 2010 later in the line as is.

Line 16 - Replace the line (it starts with "<smpte:information") with this code... <smpte:information m708:aspectRatio="16:9" m708:easyReader="false" m708:number="1"/>

Once you make these changes, save the .xml file and import it into Premiere.  You can then drop it on the timeline just as you would any other closed caption file.  Remember, that you will need to change your Program Monitor closed caption setting from CEA-608 to CEA-708 in order to see the closed captioning in action.

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New Here ,
Sep 30, 2015

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That is absolutely brilliant!  Thank you so much, not that it is hard to do but do you happen to know of anywhere that has automated this process?

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Participant ,
Feb 23, 2016

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I would love to know about automating this too. I wish Premiere could do it.

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Participant ,
Feb 23, 2016

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Thanks so much!  I'm viewing the CEA-708, but do I need to do anything different to embed it than I would do for CEA-608? I've done a couple of test renders and it's not working.  The preset name for this render explains my render settings:  HD 1080i 29.97_embedded CC_H.264, 40,000 kbps. 

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Explorer ,
Feb 24, 2016

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Just embed the captions for CEA-708 the same as you do for CEA-608.  If you're trying to watch on the program monitor in Premiere, you'll need to click on the "wrench" in the bottom right corner of the monitor frame, go down to Captions and select the Captions settings option.  Then, change it from CEA-608 to CEA-708.  There are a few other options in there, but once you do that, you'll be able to see the 708 captions on the program monitor.  But, I haven't been able to get my tape deck monitor to display the 708 captions, although it does great on the 608 captions.

Glen

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Explorer ,
Feb 24, 2016

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I almost forgot... one other thing I've been doing is to duplicate my caption file and convert the second one to 708 captions.  You do that by right-clicking on the caption file and go to Modify->Captions in the context menu that comes up.  Then, I change the Target Stream Format standard from CEA-608 to CEA-708, and set the Stream to Service 1.  Then, I put both the 608 and 708 captions on separate tracks in the timeline and line them up.  I haven't heard any complaints about not seeing the captions from any stations that take my dual-captioned shows yet...

BTW, this is done in the latest Premiere Pro CC 2015... I don't think you can do this in earlier versions...

Glen

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Explorer ,
May 31, 2016

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Thank you thank you thank you for this reply. I was almost ready to retype because I didn't see any way to change it from 708 to 608.

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New Here ,
Nov 16, 2016

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Legend...

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Explorer ,
Feb 24, 2016

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FYI... the latest version of Premiere Pro CC 2015 now allows you to change the Caption Stream without editing an XML file.  Right-click on the file in the Project Bin, select Modify->Captions and it's all in there.

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Participant ,
Feb 24, 2016

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SWEET!  That's so much easier!  And that's a great idea about duplicating the CC file and converting one to have both on the timeline. Thanks!

But I'm still baffled about embedding 708 into MOV files.  I've made absolutely sure that monitor settings are set via the "wrench" as you said. I see my unrendered 708 w/video on the same timeline next to the rendered version. And I know for a fact that Premiere is not embedding the 708 into my MOV file, even though I've got "Embed in Output File" selected in my export options.  When I play these files in QuickTime, if it has CC it would give me the player would give me the option to "Show Closed Captioning."  I wonder what I'm missing, but until then I'm just hoping the station where this will air will accept MXF files, or a sidecar with the MOV. 

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Adobe Employee ,
Feb 24, 2016

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Premiere Pro won't embed 708 into MOV, because the QuickTime specification from Apple does not officially support this. So PPRO does import 608 and 708 captions, and will embed 608 and 708 captions to MXF, but only 608 to MOV.

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Explorer ,
Feb 24, 2016

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Nice to know.  Thanks!

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New Here ,
Apr 03, 2016

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Could you please double check the supported caption formats in QuickTime files? Here is a link to Apple's QuickTime specification that outlines both c608 and c708 as allowed data formats:

Media Data Atom Types

Older versions of this spec. only mention c608 so I can see why one might conclude c708 is not supported in QuickTime files.

Here are some relevant quotes from the most recent version of the specification:

"The data format field in the sample description must be set to 'c608' or 'c708'. A closed caption track must use only one data format."


"For a CEA-608 track, the data is an array of one or more byte pairs for data channel 1/field 1 (“CC1”) of a CEA-608 data stream, each byte pair corresponding to a video frame. For details about the content, refer to the specification CEA-608-E, Line 21 Data Services, April, 2008."


"For a CEA-708 track, the [sic] should be formatted according to the ANSI CEA-708-E specification, August, 2013."


Thanks!


Alan

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Explorer ,
May 25, 2017

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OK, I've been doing some testing and reading today.  CEA-708 captions STILL will not embed in a .MOV file.  But, you can embed both 608 and 708 captions in a MXF-OP1a file.  If you're making a sidecar, you cannot export a 708 caption as a .SCC file.  It'll be almost completely empty.  Try it, then open the .SCC file in Notepad and all you'll see is "Scenarist_SCC V1.0" on the first line.  A 708 caption can be exported as a .MCC, a .XML, or a .SRT file.  The .MCC format is a MacCaption file, and the XML is a SMPTE Timed Text file, the NTSC standard.  Another quick tip I found is that you can use FILE->EXPORT->CAPTIONS to export the captions from the Project Bin, instead of using Media Encoder.  Select the format you want to use when the Caption Sidecar Settings pop-up opens, and then select the frame rate.  I almost didn't notice the frame rate, but it's pretty important, because it could mess up the synchronization of your captions with the video, so pay attention to that.

I have noticed two other problems with the CEA-708 captions using the latest CC2017.1.1 version.  First, the captions will move randomly if you duplicate a caption in order to change it from a 608 to a 708 caption.  I've taken a 608 caption, duplicated it in the Project Bin, then I right-clicked on the duplicate file in the Project Bin, chose Modify->Captions and changed the 608 to a 708 stream.  After putting the new 708 file in the Timeline, I noticed that the text has moved.  What used to be at the bottom of the screen is now at the top.  That's easy to fix in the Captions window, as long as the captions are always in one place on the screen.  It's just a nuisance.  All you need to do is select all the captions in the caption window and click the position icon on the upper right of the window and they'll all line up.

The other problem I've had is stranger, and I can't figure out how to fix it.  Here's a look at a 608 caption screen capture...

CC608 Sample.JPG

And here's a look at the exact same frame with the 708 caption instead...

CC708 Sample.JPG

As you can see, the black background has shifted slightly to the right, so that the first letter of each line is not on top of the background.  In addition, there are now dots between every letter and space in the graphic.  I mentioned this to some dude from India on the support phone lines, and he sounded like a cow looking at a new fence.  Anyone here have any ideas?

Glen

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 03, 2017

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hello !

we do tons of captions (creation, conversion, processing) in house since age.

about Adobe Premiere and captions:

- "Premiere Pro won't embed 708 into MOV, because the QuickTime specification from Apple does not officially support this." sorry, wrong excuse. AJA and BMD does capture 708 in MOV since many years ago; and all software are able to read them back correctly, including Premiere!!!

- beside, professional software like mac caption or vantage does the same, correctly

- so please FIX and ENABLE this.

- why does Premiere ALWAYS change the way it decode captions ??? example : SCC in 2398 works well in Pr2015, but display garbage dots in Pr2017!

- Premiere does encode 608 and 708 in MXF; but for XDCAM it is NOT the standard broadcast way, which use the 436M dedicated track. the way it is currently done (inside MPEG2 essence) is wrong, and prevent other tools using those embedded captions to work the way they should.

- (as you noticed) Premiere does NOT upconvert 608 to 708 correctly, many issues arise. the only 2 tools we have tried/used that produce 708 correctly are mac caption and vantage. mac caption MUST be used on a mac if you want to export to MOV with 708.

- 708 is "weird bugged" in the way that it permit to encode for 4/3 and 16/9 screen; but for compatibility issue with decoder only 4/3 must be used. so you loose horizontal alignment (especially right)

- export to tape : another huge subject of frustration from Premiere. even if now with a brand new iMac2017 we are finally able to do it correctly, as soon as you add a caption track on the timeline, the export to tape will drop frames.

conclusion : the only workflow that for us is

- in Premiere, only import SCC 608, and keep it 608. export to mov or mxf embedded as needed

- use external tool, like vantage /mac caption to add a good embedded 708 to this file

- use a specialized playback software, like switch 3.2, to check correctly 608 and 708. if you client does NOT see captions as displayed in Switch, it's because of its decoder.

- the only way i could think of Premiere doing the right job from end to end about captions is that Adobe wake up, and create a SDK that permit third party companies - that do captions correctly - to create plugins.

captions, have always been, and will be forever a total mess.

the only "working way" is to burn them inside the video (so open caption), so 100% of people will see EXACTLY the captions as created. but you can not switch them off...

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