P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift

[Lucasenglund]

I found out a few weeks ago that the colors in Premiere doesn't look the same after export.

There's a huge gamma shift, and i later on found out this is due to the P3 Gamma on most Macs later than 2015 that PP can't handle.

So, right now i'm on a $9,000 iMac Pro and i can't use it professionally as Premiere doesn't show what's actually happening in the grade.

I know there's a few workarounds with different LUT's etc, but they're not 100% accurate and it's not really an acceptable workflow after paying loads of money on high end computers and software. It's so damn frustrating. I don't want to switch to FCPX, but i can't deal with this for much longer.

So, is there any real solution on this problem, except getting an external display?
I recently tweeted Adobe about it, so i'm hoping to actually get an answer on this topic.
And hopefully a date for when the support for color management will be out.

I'm 100% sure about the problem as i've been researching and testing everything out. So please avoid claiming that the problem is something else

[TKX_0104]

[R Neil Haugen]

Yep, that looks like a typical gamma or color profile issue between apps. As you can't change Pr, you set Ae to match in its color management controls.

Another suggestion for cross-app work in Pr/Ae ... uncheck "composite in linear color" for Pr Sequences settings. Especially if you have alpha channels coming in fro Ae.

Neil

[drew_beynon]

Just to add another Professional with a frustrating experience using Premiere CC19 and an iMac Pro.
Welcome to any comments. Hoping Adobe see's this and can feel my pain.

System: $13,000 maxed out iMac Pro

Goals: Render out commercial spots for phones and computer monitors for Insta, FB, YouTube, etc. I want to show my projects approvers the work WHILE staying in Premiere and they sit over my shoulder, making any subtle changes they ask for on the fly - and then export an MP4 that matches what they saw.

Display: iMac Pro set to Display P3, second monitor Dell UP2715K set to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 (But usually just do all work on Display P3)

Footage from: VariCam EVA 1

VariCam Lut applied to Lumetri on an adjustment layer over entire spot, with each clip getting a second lumetri applied to make the shot better for the specific shot. Some shots with skin also have Red Giant Cosmo applied to them too.

Problem: in the first image - on the top right is the program monitor, everything looks great and rich. Then the lower right is the mp4 export using the youtube preset. The wood table color changes, the skin changes. It's not terrible, but its more washed out, and for consumer products I need it to be what I expect it to be! The problem happens with both lumetri and Red Giant Colorista.

The second image is just a screen shot of the YouTube preset settings.

Since my goal is not broadcast right now, the color management check box doesn't apply (right?) Anyway I experimented with it checked and not checked, and the results are the exact same.

A shitty solve has been to open the projects on the slower old trash can mac, and do the color finishing there and export.

[R Neil Haugen]

One does expect professionals to learn about the tools used in their craft.

I'm not impressed with the cost of the Mac gear ... only whether or not it is setup to work professionally ... and it isn't. Clearly. Or you wouldn't be having the issue.

P3 is not a widely used color space, it is HUGE compared to most web gear out there. My new monitor has P3 and well, that mode isn't going to be used much for the foreseeable future. And as more P3 and other gear and more actual HDR comes in, making stuff for web use is going to get even dicier, btw.

The other monitor you have is ALSO not set correctly ... you need video sRGB which is not what you've chosen, and you need to calibrate the monitor yourself for Rec.709 and gamma 2.4. NOT the same as still-image sRGB.

"Enable display color management" only tells Pr that you're viewing on some form of P3 monitor, so ... within Pr, it attempts to show a correct video sRGB/Rec.709.gamma2.4 image on it's own "monitors". It has no effect or control of your display or OS whatever.

In your Mac OS, you can go to set the monitor to a space, and from what others have posted here, there is an option for sRGB Rec.709, though I'm not sure what gamma will be used. It will at least be vastly closer than your current setting.

Neil

[Jim_Simon]

P3 is not a widely used color space

It's the DCI standard, what we see when we go to the movies.

Though I don't use that as any kind of argument for using the GUI monitor for grading.  I think that's the wrong way to do things.  A proper I/O device and monitor should be the target here.

[R Neil Haugen]

Not that many of us actually deliver for theater release.

That said  ... as always I push the engineers to get full user control settings for color management. It's getting more necessary all the time.

Neil

[chrisw44157881]

The P3 colorspace apple uses is a weird gamma 2.2 hybrid with D65 and strange primaries. even pure P3 isn't DCI.

DCI is XYZ colorspace at 2.6 gamma with a special D63 whitepoint at specific xyz coordinates. If the actual projector only supports P3 instead of rec. 2020, it will internally convert to P3 inside the DCP package as the projection system is required to convert the incoming DCDM color space to its native color space.

Since monitors cannot fully cover rec 2020, you grade in the highest native colorspace your monitor supports.

You don't have to grade in P3, many people grade in rec. 709 for theatre. but the more expensive monitor you have, the more colors you can grade for the big screen. Or let's put it this way, if your film is black and white, you don't need a large color gamut and your contrast 2000:1 is all you need. If you film has low color contrast, you can get away with missing very dark but colorful colors. Since, film colors look good at 128-140 RGB with low luminance(except animated films which are very saturated), you are usually fine.

A small caveat to all this: HDR cinema is coming soon, so if you only grade in P3, you'll have to re-grade everything for rec. 2020.

[drew_beynon]

In your Mac OS, you can go to set the monitor to a space, and from what others have posted here, there is an option for sRGB Rec.709, though I'm not sure what gamma will be used. It will at least be vastly closer than your current setting.

Neil

That is not an option from the list of display profiles that I have. The only one with sRGB in the name is the one I mentioned.

[R Neil Haugen]

A couple of other Mac users mentioned needing to download that from Apple if I recall correctly. It does help quite a bit, but I doubt can completely solve the problems you're having.

Monitor care and feeding being a bit of a pain to make sure it's all working correctly together.

Neil

[TKX_0104]

When are they going to fix it? I thought I was satisfied with the configuration of Slfilmmedia, but I could not work with a project recorded at night

[TKX_0104]

I managed to get close to the colors I wanted.

I connected the setting '' enable display color management ''

and then edited in the lumetri a little of the curve.

I hope it helps somebody!

[Spen]

So here's what I did to fix the problem.

Step 1. Quit Adobe Premier

Step 2. Download a trial version of Final Cut Pro X.

Step 3. Test it on your flashy iMac that uses P3 Gamma.

Step 4. Marvel at how perfect all your colours are and how blisteringly fast everything is.

Step 5. Start saving because your FCP trial will expire in 30 days.

Every time I move away from Adobe software my life gets better.

Sorry Adobe.

[R Neil Haugen]

Or you could have gone into the Mac ColorSync utility and changed the settings so that your computer actually used the CORRECT settings (outside of FCPx) for video.

Which it is SET not to do so on shipping. Which I doubt is an oversight on Apple's part.

So your computer is set to work wrong by Apple. As the user, you could easily change a couple settings which would make it work correctly with all broadcast standards for video, but you instead blame Adobe and everyone else for what Apple set up for you.

Most charming.

The ColorSync BTU709 setting in Primaries only applies the *camera* EOTF and *not* the standard-specified *display* transform.

Apple, btw, is the ONLY  hardware company in the world doing this, btw.

So the result is an effective gamma of 1.96, with a linear section in the shadows that dramatically lifts them. Note: Apple computers are set at the factory for the Apple apps to work properly. Weird, eh?

To get around that you need to change settings for both the Primaries and ... next ColorSync tab of options. They're not named btw to be clear which option you need, but with the correct settings essentially all video players and NLEs will show nearly identical images. The Filmlight development team has a good video demonstration of the issues.

Gee, why would Apple set their computers to an odd partial standard that doesn't apply to their own apps? Can't figure that one out.

And I don't know a single colorist that finds the Mac P3 monitor and display space a useful tool. They all change the settings for working pro video. No matter what app they use.

Neil

[Robotfist]

Hey Neil,

Is this the Filmlight tutorial you mentioned in your last post? I would like to try to ix my iMac Pro's screen but I am new to this level of calibration.

https://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/training/resources/truelight/QuickTimeColour.php

- Derek

[R Neil Haugen]

So, resurrecting an old thread. What is your basic reasonably-priced setup recommendation for an iMac 2019 4k video editing rig to properly monitor? What external box? What monitor?

That's the trick, isn't it? Figuring out what will work well enough at "a reasonable price".

For the Mac computer, I'm not getting into that ... no expert on the various Mac systems. I'll stick to the monitor side.

For my colorist friends, nothing short of a minimum of a Decklink card ($150/$300) and a Flanders or Eizo reference monitor ... at above $5,000 each ... is good enough for professional work for the monitoring side of things.

I can't justify that as I don't do any broadcast work.

I think ... at a minimum ... running a second monitor for judging the image, that is able to manage well over 100% of sRGB primaries with good screen uniformity (if not at the level of a full reference monitor) is needed. That typically is going to be closer to $1,000USD or so if you're talking say UHD and at least 28" diagonal if not more.

I'm using a BenQ PD2720U and it's doing ok. Others I know use a rather wide array of monitors, but I haven't heard of anything below that near-$1,000 level that actually gets the full RGB primaries and a good black point guaranteed after calibration.

Then the i1 Display Pro puck/software to give a calibration profile for the OS, with ... a check on accuracy. Using LightSpace (you can use the free version for this) and Resolve paired together to run a full color profile giving you the data ... deltaE variance, gamma, all the information to give you some confidence the calibration actually got you close enough to work with.

Next up, using the "decent" monitor mentioned above, and going with an AJA or BlackMagic external LUT box with a calibration run by Lightspace, so it can create the 3D LUT to put into the LUT box and run the monitor. And depending on the unit selectected, can include a card out of the computer, the LUT box, and software ... and that will run over a grand at least if I recall correctly.

But ... you'll have a tighter color management system that completely gets away from the OS ... which the option above this clearly doesn't.

I've got a new rig I'm ordering tomorrow probably ... and am looking at cards & boxes right now myself. Yea, there's options alright. But ... which? ... on any one system ... can vary.

Neil

[housejacket]

Thank you, Neil. I’m pretty close to being in your boat needs-wise, so I’ll be interested in hearing what you end up buying. Please update when you make your gear choice(s). As a toe-in-the-water entry, what’s the downside to simply going straight out of my iMac to a decent sRGB monitor?

-Chris

[R Neil Haugen]

The Apple ColorSync utility is unfortunately not properly setup for Rec.709 standards. It recognizes the sRGB primaries, but applies only the camera transform function part of the two-part (both required!) Rec.709 standard, and does not apply the display transform.

(As you wouldn't be working with a Display-P3 monitor, you would get around much of the other issues.)

I'm not sure if say using the i1 Display Pro puck/software for getting an ICC profile into the OS would completely get around that problem of the partial application of Rec.709. I think it must be mostly workable though, as there seem to be a fair number of people doing it.

Saw a fascinating high-end review of the new XDR display ... and with the same results as all other reviews using proper high-end spectro gear and testing for comparing to proper Grade 1 reference monitors.

Yea, the blooming in the darks is aweful ... totally unusable for full HDR reference work. Can't maintain over 1,000 to 1 contrast as there aren't nearly enough dimming zones and so any lightness somewhere sort of near turns the darking off, and ... blooming occurs.

There were two fascinating bits ... when they used the XDR with Bt(Rec.)709 setting in the OS, they got a very good SDR reference set ... the profile was tight on the sRGB primaries, white point of D65, gamma 2.35, and brightness of 97.8 nits. With a very good deltaE chart also. So ... as an SDR reference monitor, it's probably pretty good. Which is about the price range it's in, actually.

The other ... I've hunted all over for any "brightness" standard for the Apple Display-P3, and in the settings available on that XDR screengrabs of the OS settings options ... was Display P3 (500 nits) ... so yea, the 'standard' setup with a Retina with the Display-P3 is WAY bright for SDR Rec.709 media.

Neil