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Premiere Pro CC color / gamma shift on export - is a Premiere not Quicktime problem

Explorer ,
Jun 09, 2017 Jun 09, 2017

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I know this is a topic of major frustration for many of us - washed out colors and a very visible gamma shift when exporting out of Premiere Pro. From what I have seen on this forum, people post all kinds of solutions / explanations as to what could cause this problem. Many people think it' a Quicktime problem, some say it has to do with video card drives, or with checking "render as linear color space" or not.

I just did a round of major testing on my iMac running OS 10.12.5 and the latest version of Premiere Pro CC 2017 - and I have to say - nothing I do fixes it or makes any difference. Whatever I export - and that's the key here - Quicktime movies, TIFF sequences, stills - EVERYTHING has a washed-out gamma shift and desaturated colors.

When I take a screenshot of my media within Premiere Pro - colors and gamma of the resulting PNG are exactly as I see them in Premiere. If go through the EXPORT function and export a still image - the colors are faded and the gamma is washed out. And it doesn't matter what is clicked in the export window - maximum depth, linear color space... nothing makes a difference.

Here is another interesting thing I found - when I reimport these washed-out exports (stills or quicktime movies, doesn't matter), inside the Premiere Pro world they look perfectly normal. When I import the same washed-out exports into Final Cut Pro X, the washed out colors and gamma stay. So there must be something in these exports (hidden tags?) that Premiere adds and that it then uses to display the media correctly. Unfortunately every other app in my Mac universe doesn't do the same and is off dramatically.

The problem is - I can't just stay inside Premiere Pro. I have to send tmy cuts out and share them with clients. I need them to see what I see inside Premiere Pro.

Does anyone on the Adobe side have any insight into this? This issue has been going on for years on this forum. I cannot believe that we are still nowhere close to a solution.

Thanks in advance for any hint.

Markus

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replies 163 Replies 163
Community Beginner ,
Feb 14, 2018 Feb 14, 2018

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sRGB is the correct answer to the problem.

I work on an Eizo monitor and when I switch from my calibrated profile to the built in sRGB profile - the color in Premiere perfectly matches the color of the export. When I work in Premiere with the calibrated profile - the color in Premiere does not match the export at all. It's pretty frustrating but I trust the calibrated profile over Premiere any day.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 09, 2017 Jun 09, 2017

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Your last comment sounds ... most likely?

One of the decisions made a long time ago with PrPro was to simply base it around Rec709, and without the color space control settings that AfterEffects and Resolve and many other of the pro-level apps have. In most situations this works quite well for "standard" work. In some cases, not so well.

Like many users, I've suggested via the ol' Feature Request forms that the PrPro users be given their choice of color settings. Especially with ACES, HDR, and several of the other new-fangled things becoming more and more common, I think this should be a top priority.

So ... I'd suggest filing a bug report variant about the iMac issue, you've certainly got some supporting material. And file a Feature Request variant for getting user color controls into PrPro.

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

And maybe Kevin-Monahan​ or RameezKhan​ could check on any iMac issues?

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 15, 2018 Jan 15, 2018

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Yes. This is a very big problem for Adobe. Has been for a long time. It was stable a few months ago. If I rendered the media brought it into after effects then graded then Brough it back and and then rendered media. again. A very long process. Now it won't even support that. SO. Adobe. Please give us real answers. This is a nightmare.

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 15, 2018 Jan 15, 2018

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The only thing I can do of it to remotely see the lumber color effects is if I throw a Technical preset on top. That is not how it should work.

You should bounce what you see.

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 06, 2018 Feb 06, 2018

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I mostly work in After Effects and often use flat-coloured solids with RGB values contained in my company's brand guidelines.

I use the same RGB colours to generate static images from Photoshop, Illustrator, Indesign, and After Effects.

The colours become washed only when I have to export any kind of moving pictures, exception made for GIFs coming from Photoshop.

I clearly don't have enough information to understand why there is such a difference between the preview in Premiere/After Effects and the rendered video (no matter the format, from what I tried so far), while such a difference does not exist between what I see in Premiere/After Effects and every other package and the final render of stills.

Even using the Export Frame functionality in Premiere produces results which then colour picked in Photoshop result in correct colours - which look fine on screen and when imported into different Social media platforms.

I'm not necessarily concerned about the difference between a multitude of screens, but more about the difference between my preview window and the final video.

I understand it's a broad question but a pointer to where to start understanding the root of the issue would really help.

Many thanks!

Ale

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LEGEND ,
Feb 06, 2018 Feb 06, 2018

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By preview, do you mean the one in the Export dialog? I know for some people that doesn't show the image exactly the same as in the Program monitor within PrPro nor as the media shows when re-imported or played in a proper player after export. I don't know why, as in my computer, that monitor shows the same thing as the Program monitor.

But I've never considered that a view of the media for anything but to show what you're exporting, not how it looks. As in the section of a timeline, the proportions, any 'black bars' on sides/bottom, that sort of thing. I've never had a problem with media exported being other than shown in the Program monitor when re-imported or in a proper player outside (VLC or PotPlayer).

So it's something where I don't understand why one would worry about the Export Settings dialog monitor.

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 06, 2018 Feb 06, 2018

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Hi Neil,

I'm afraid the misunderstanding is due to my poor use of the terminology.

By "Preview" I mean the "Comp panel" in After Effects, and the "Source" or "Program" monitors in Premiere, which show no discrepancies.

When I export stills, these have colours matching exactly the ones in the Source and Program colours, while I struggle to obtain the same colours on video.

- The videos I export, playing on VLC are much brighter, or "washed" than the ones in the monitors. Same goes for YouTube.

- When I reimport the exported videos, I see the original colours in the monitors and Comp panel.

I hope this makes sense.

Here is an example of what it's happening to me:

Screenshot of the Program monitor (desired colours):

Program monitor.png

Still image exported from Premiere (desired colours, matching Program monitor):

Still from Premiere.png

Screenshot of an instance of render, exported using VLC's "Take snapshot" (Unexpected colours)

vlcsnap-2018-02-06-14h41m38s336.png

This difference is too substantial to be the result of my monitor being poorly set up, and a confirmation of this is the fact that stills match perfectly what I get in Premiere and After Effects, and whenever I used the same RGB values in any other graphic package.

Ale

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LEGEND ,
Feb 06, 2018 Feb 06, 2018

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What GPU are you using? If an Nvidia one, you can go into the Nvidia settings and the video tab and tell it to set the dynamic range to 0-255 period and that card settings over-ride players.

Also ... what color space/profile is your monitor using? PrPro is set for standard BT(Rec.) 709, which is sRGB.

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 07, 2018 Feb 07, 2018

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My monitor operates in RGB space, but wouldn't this affect the colours evenly?

Unfortunately for me, I have to manage colours through the Intel Graphics Settings, which does not offer the possibility to override the player.

The solution you propose suggests that the video visualised on a calibrated system, either on VLC or on YouTube wouldn't look very different from the stills exported directly from the Adobe suite. This is because players installed on my PC or running in browser render the video differently than the monitors in Premiere and the viewport in After Effects.

Are these fair assumptions?

Ale

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Mentor ,
Feb 07, 2018 Feb 07, 2018

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I believe you are having multiple issues, that's why it's confusing. You are grading with a wide gamut monitor, but premiere ignores it.

AE with -> simulate display turned off(even with color management on) is acting as a 'passthrough' for your monitor, once again in dumb mode like premiere. that is problem#1

#2 is that youtube doesn't do adobe rgb/p3. it does rec.709 or srgb gamma 2.2. its hdr can do rec.2020, but that's different.

#3 vimeo is rec. 709 2.2 16-235 using broadcast pixel encoding. (don't ask me why, its on their recommended encode page)

so.. to recap:

if you want AE to work for your monitor, set view-simulate display to your native color space of your monitor

if you want premiere to work with wide gamut, set lut from your native color monitor to rec. 709 2.2

if you want youtube, set monitor to rec. 709/srgb with fixes in previous thread inside chrome.( I haven't tested firefox)

if you want vimeo, set same as youtube but encode as 16-235.

if you want video player, either set your monitor to rec. 709 or use a color managed player like madvr

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Community Expert ,
Feb 07, 2018 Feb 07, 2018

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Ale_Compleat  wrote

My monitor operates in RGB space, but wouldn't this affect the colours evenly?

One thing you should realize from chrisw44157881's post is that there is no single RGB space. There are many of them. Because no display can show the full range of color that the eye can see, every display has limits, and each standard describes its own limits. The latest displays reproduce wider gamuts because display technology got better.

When you look at a graph comparing old and new RGB color spaces, you can see why colors might be affected unevenly when a video project is edited and viewed across applications, systems, and displays that use or assume different RGB spaces. Color management helps reconcile these differences. Some applications like Photoshop and After Effects support color management, but Premiere Pro doesn't yet.

In the past, most video editors only had to deal with one RGB gamut: the standard used by their reference monitor, such as NTSC. When video editing went digital, now they also had to account for the RGB standards used by computer displays and HDTV displays, such as sRGB and Rec. 709. Now we're in transition to the latest UHD video standards that specify much wider RGB gamuts, such as DCI-P3 and Rec. 2020.

A separate issue is whether the dynamic range is set to 0-255 or 16-235. While this is unrelated to RGB color spaces, it definitely contributes to the confusion.

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 07, 2018 Feb 07, 2018

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One thing you should realize from chrisw44157881's post is that there is no single RGB space. There are many of them. Because no display can show the full range of color that the eye can see, every display has limits, and each standard describes its own limits.

I'm embarrassed to say that I only had a vague idea of what RGB standards were.

When you look at a graph comparing old and new RGB color spaces, you can see why colors might be affected unevenly when a video project is edited and viewed across applications, systems, and displays that use or assume different RGB spaces. Color management helps reconcile these differences. Some applications like Photoshop and After Effects support color management, but Premiere Pro doesn't yet.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm starting to put the pieces together, although I would love to read more.

On top of all the elements which make this problem so confusing, is the fact that my laptop has the Nvidia and the Intel settings competing to manage the colours in different applications. For instance, I can't figure out where I can adjust the dynamic range, as it's not possible to adjust it via the Nvidia settings and the Intel settings have only panels with information "dumbed down" and that doesn't seem to allow for specific values to be specified.

Thank you all for taking the time to share some knowledge.

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Contributor ,
Feb 08, 2018 Feb 08, 2018

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I've just started a similar thread with the same issue on an iMac Pro - obviously massively disappointing having spent a fortune on a new machine. Regardless of monitor calibration etc (I am only using the iMac Pro screen and it is set to iMac Colour space) - I just need Premiere Pro to export video as it looks IN Premiere Pro, that's it.

Changing any calibration will make no difference - the video, on the same screen, looks different when it comes out of Premiere Pro than it did when it was playing happily on Premiere's timeline. This was not an issue on an older 2011 iMac or a 2014 MacBook. Given that it's the delivery of the project it's a MASSIVE issue - it's no good giving me software to make films if I cannot get them out of it.

This is an issue that needs to be addressed by Adobe - surely that's what I'm paying for every month?

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Explorer ,
May 16, 2018 May 16, 2018

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This information is pretty much mostly incorrect. Quicktime no longer does an incorrect gamma shift. Unless you are still using Quicktime 7? Everything is controlled with ColorSync and all apps show it the same way except for Premiere. It's actually Premiere that's showing it incorrectly in the viewer on a p3 display (5K iMac, new Macbook Pro). This would actually be very evident with a calibrated broadcast monitor connected. Premiere would always show it highly saturated and contrasty to the actual output. FCPX, Resolve, After Effects, Quicktime, Finder—they all show it correctly because they have color management—Premiere does not.

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LEGEND ,
May 16, 2018 May 16, 2018

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Thanks for the corrections on a couple things. As a PC user, yea the only Qt available is 7.

I've talked with colorists about the P3/Mac setup and Resolve. Was told that well ... you can sorta use it, but ... hook up a Flanders or other total b-cast monitor all corrected through an external LUT box properly calibrated ... that P3 display and the b-cast monitor ain't gonna match particularly closely. Whether you're doing Rec709 or full HDR, which the Mac monitors of course can't really do.

So it seems the Mac monitors are in an interesting and pretty color space, but not particularly suited for b-cast grade work. In the same way most other "regular" monitors aren't.

Which isn't to say you can't get close enough for much work to pass. Now, Flanders gave away a like $5G monitor at the Colorist Mixer at NAB ... first name called was a noted teacher of editing/software/grading in NLE's. Who'd just left 'cause a friend had an extra Cirque du Soleil ticket. Were I him, I'd have been as bummed as he was sitting at the show, when a text noted he'd been called first!

I can't afford such a rig, so I make due with calibrating as I can & occasionally shipping a test clip off to see if it matches muster (which I seem to do). So, you can work with a monitor not 'natively' in full proper space/profile. I sure wouldn't take on delivering a b-cast show off this setup.

But if I'd won that Flanders, I'd have been rather thrilled all the same ...

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 06, 2020 Jun 06, 2020

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Terrible and smug reply. 

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LEGEND ,
Jun 06, 2020 Jun 06, 2020

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LATEST

Whatever.

 

I spend most of my online time dealing with pro colorists ... who tend to be Mac folks, a bit more than half. They don't ever use a Retina as a grading monitor. Of course, they don't use any "normal" monitor as a grading monitor.

 

And I've sat through hours of tech talk both online and in-person over this issue. In excruciating detail. Especially when they're talking about the massive ongoing issue of how to deal with a client who looks at a test or the final export on their pretty, bright Retina and says "This don't look right here ... ". How do you help the client get a proper imaging device to see the material upon?

 

The BBC even has their own rather complex app for going in and modifying the internal settings in ColorSync, in order to force their MacRetina rigs to be closer to the standard. That app of theirs is a beast to figure out according to some of the colorists I know who've tried it. Well past me.

 

Neil

 

Neil

 

 

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 15, 2017 Aug 15, 2017

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I'm having the same problem and it's driving me nuts. When I export and play the exported file with the Quicktime Player, it's like my grade is gone. If I play it with VLC, it's there just like the original. When I upload to Vimeo, it's desaturated on their player again.

I'm not a techie, but I assumed that the information would be baked-in so it would play the same in Quicktime as VLC, but it's like some of the information is unreadable by the player and it's stripping out my grade.

I've tried transcoding and anything else I could think of or that I've read in forums, but nothing is working. I don't know what to do. Switch to FCPX? This is crazy.

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Mentor ,
Aug 15, 2017 Aug 15, 2017

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I can't promise this will work for you, but many people have had luck using this LUT I made for youtube/vimeo.

64 cube iridas lut for burning in darker 16-235 from 0-255 for youtube upload. it darkens image, then youtube/vimeo re-lightens again.

https://f1.creativecow.net/10598/fixmyyoutube

note:

it doesn't work with adjustment layers directly

you have to use it in the dropdown for the export in adobe media encoder. or you can NEST it first.

its a premiere bug. also it needs to be copied in both premiere-lumetri-technical and adobe media encoder-lumetri-technical

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Explorer ,
Oct 20, 2017 Oct 20, 2017

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Any Quicktime export from Premiere will add the nclc colr atoms in to the movie header this is part of the QuickTime specification. This is all based on the codec type. ProRes and h264 all expect the images to be BT709 so will add tHD color metadata. These tell Apples colorsync what to do with the image based on the colorprofile you have set on the monitor. Quicktime will always use this to determine how to display the movie so if you monitor is sRGB it will try and map the BT709 to sRGB . Additionally some codecs do not display correctly in Quicktime 7. DNxHD for one has RGB levels of 16-235 Video legal, computer monitors are designed to display expanded range 0-255 so any video legal material if not properly mapped will look washed out as black is at 16 not 0.  Most players, editing and grading applications completely ignore this metadata  and map the ranges correctly and rightly so and expect your monitor to be calibrated according to what you want to output. Premiere is no exception and same goes for Avid. Quicktime 7 or X should never be used to judge colour because of these short comings. You can use an application called JES Extensify to remove these added metadat and then it should look the same as what you see in Premiere and other players such as VLC. QuickTime sucks and reallu should be ditched.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 09, 2017 Nov 09, 2017

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Markus did you solve the color shift issue? Despite all the replies I do not see a clear answer.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 09, 2017 Nov 09, 2017

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What trouble are you having? Displaying properly in Quicktime, which "simon..." had a very helpful answer on, or in uploads to YouTube?

Many of us upload to YouTube without troubles ... and it seems that depending on what YouTube does with the video, can be the issue. On first uploading, YouTube uses one codec, then re-encodes to a different one sometime soon to a few hours later (for many of us). For some reason, it can stick in that first codec without re-encoding for some.

That first codec on uploading may likely show the media as 16-235 and at gamma maybe 2.0/2.2. After re-encoding it goes to 0-255/2.2/2.4, which is what 'we' expect.

If you have media in YouTube that's stuck at the 16-235 setting, go into your channel's controls, select the clip, then select 'retouch' but save it without doing anything.

YouTube within a couple hours will re-encode and it should appear properly.

If QuickTime player, first ... avoid it when possible, it's a bugger and NOT cross-platform any more (by direct action from Apple itself, being the jealous kindergartners they are). Second, you may be able to get it more inline if you've an Nvidia card by going into the card's settings Video tab, select to have the card control everything rather than the player, and set the card to everything at 0-255. It works for some.

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 12, 2017 Nov 12, 2017

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Hi Neil,

There are two areas I use my videos. One is on YouTube and the other is for website sliders in WordPress. To be honest my area of expertise is in print - I use EIZO monitors but they have been calibrated to match print specifications. My need is to just make sure the colours look like what I see in Premier (mac). Would you be kind and guide me with the settings in JES. I export as mp4 using quicktime h.264. From what I understood UTUBE can be handle colour shift by running a retouch. What setting do I need to do in JES?

Thank you in advance.

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Explorer ,
Nov 13, 2017 Nov 13, 2017

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Go to the Color settings and tick allow changes. Remove both the Ganma and Color. Goto Manual and then press update to apply the changes.

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New Here ,
Nov 29, 2017 Nov 29, 2017

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Hi, thnx for the possible fix, but I tried everything and can't find the answer to:

which color setting are you talking about?

May sound stupid but sorry for that, yeah?

thnx again

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