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Variable frame rate video with Premiere Pro

Explorer ,
Dec 04, 2012

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Variable frame rate video comes from many places these days: phones, live streamed video recordings.

Adobe Premiere is a supposedly production level piece of software that cost a good chunk of change.

How is it 2012 and Adobe does not still have an answer to this problem?  After trying to editing/convert/mux/edit variable frame rate videos for the past 5 hours I am just exhausted.  No amount of conversion apps, etc have saved us and THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO.

We have spent thousands on Adobe software packages over the last decade, probably 10s of thousands, and the only answer I find consistently is to switch to Vegas.

Surely, SURELY someone at Adobe with real insight into the issue can help answer the question of whether users moving into different medium should find a place elsewhere in the software ecosystem...

Message was edited by: Kevin Monahan

Reason: to make article more searchable

Title changed.

Hi rmshro0,

How is it 2012 and Adobe does not still have an answer to this problem?  After trying to editing/convert/mux/edit variable frame rate videos for the past 5 hours I am just exhausted.  No amount of conversion apps, etc have saved us and THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO.

You can now work with variable frame rate video in Premiere Pro CC 2018 (12.0.1). Feel free to download that version from Creative Cloud.

More info here: New features summary for the January 2018 and October 2017 releases of Adobe Premiere Pro CC.

See also this link: https://www.premierebro.com/blog/premiere-pro-1201-update-variable-frame-rate-and-new-features

I apologize that it took so long.

Thanks,
Kevin

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Variable frame rate video with Premiere Pro

Explorer ,
Dec 04, 2012

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Variable frame rate video comes from many places these days: phones, live streamed video recordings.

Adobe Premiere is a supposedly production level piece of software that cost a good chunk of change.

How is it 2012 and Adobe does not still have an answer to this problem?  After trying to editing/convert/mux/edit variable frame rate videos for the past 5 hours I am just exhausted.  No amount of conversion apps, etc have saved us and THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO.

We have spent thousands on Adobe software packages over the last decade, probably 10s of thousands, and the only answer I find consistently is to switch to Vegas.

Surely, SURELY someone at Adobe with real insight into the issue can help answer the question of whether users moving into different medium should find a place elsewhere in the software ecosystem...

Message was edited by: Kevin Monahan

Reason: to make article more searchable

Title changed.

Hi rmshro0,

How is it 2012 and Adobe does not still have an answer to this problem?  After trying to editing/convert/mux/edit variable frame rate videos for the past 5 hours I am just exhausted.  No amount of conversion apps, etc have saved us and THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO.

You can now work with variable frame rate video in Premiere Pro CC 2018 (12.0.1). Feel free to download that version from Creative Cloud.

More info here: New features summary for the January 2018 and October 2017 releases of Adobe Premiere Pro CC.

See also this link: https://www.premierebro.com/blog/premiere-pro-1201-update-variable-frame-rate-and-new-features

I apologize that it took so long.

Thanks,
Kevin

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LEGEND ,
Dec 04, 2012

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What is the frame rate you want to use and what for?

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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The file I am trying to edit was recorded in a streaming application called XSplit, very popular in the game / live streaming community. 

The frame rate is variable, slightly I am guessing, because the real time nature of the recording/stream.  The issue is that while WMP and VLC play the file back 100% correctly, when played back inside Premiere CS6 the file drifts out of sync so at the end of a 2 hour clip, we are talking more than a full second or so.

According to MediaInfo, here is the file detail:

General

Complete name                            : Y:\Live\2012-12-4 Farcry 3\2012-12-04_200413079.mp4

Format                                   : MPEG-4

Format profile                           : Base Media

Codec ID                                 : isom

File size                                : 4.33 GiB

Duration                                 : 2h 11mn

Overall bit rate                         : 4 713 Kbps

Writing application                      : Lavf54.0.100

Video

ID                                       : 1

Format                                   : AVC

Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec

Format profile                           : High@L3.1

Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes

Format settings, ReFrames                : 4 frames

Codec ID                                 : avc1

Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding

Duration                                 : 2h 11mn

Bit rate                                 : 4 574 Kbps

Width                                    : 1 280 pixels

Height                                   : 720 pixels

Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9

Frame rate mode                          : Variable

Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps

Minimum frame rate                       : 5.000 fps

Maximum frame rate                       : 30.303 fps

Color space                              : YUV

Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0

Bit depth                                : 8 bits

Scan type                                : Progressive

Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.166

Stream size                              : 4.20 GiB (97%)

Writing library                          : x264 core 125 r2200 999b753

Encoding settings                        : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=2 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=18 / lookahead_threads=3 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=10 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=13.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=5000 / vbv_bufsize=7000 / crf_max=0.0 / nal_hrd=none / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

Audio

ID                                       : 2

Format                                   : AAC

Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec

Format profile                           : LC

Codec ID                                 : 40

Duration                                 : 2h 11mn

Bit rate mode                            : Constant

Bit rate                                 : 128 Kbps

Channel(s)                               : 2 channels

Channel positions                        : Front: L R

Sampling rate                            : 44.1 KHz

Compression mode                         : Lossy

Stream size                              : 120 MiB (3%)

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People's Champ ,
Dec 11, 2012

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I see your keyint parameter is set to 250. I have to ask if you have tried setting it to a lower number. Like 60, or even 30? Your keyint-min is set to 25 yet wouldn't 30 be more appropriate?

If you cut back on the type of b frame that references other frames, your file size will go up, but does that really matter at this point?

See this blog posting: https://www.xsplit.com/blog.php?post_id=267

This might not be helpful, but just in case you haven't looked into these things, perhaps it could be. If you are way past this, my apologies, and I wish you luck.

It is difficult to know if the video is the problem or the audio - that assumes I understand the problem correctly, the audio and video are going out of sync? I have to ask if there is a reason you chose 44.1 instead of 48K.

Also, I see where you say you edit the video for time. Does that mean that there are lots of cuts, every few minutes at least? Or just a few? The reason I ask is that I vaguely recall that when a long GOP is cut, Premiere Pro has some calculating to do, and it might keep the drifting down to a minimum. You might try making a lot of extra cuts (after all else is said and done but before exporting) just to test out the idea. I could be wrong on that or it could be a problem fixed long ago.

artofzootography.com

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LEGEND ,
Dec 05, 2012

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Variable frame rates in video are not normal.  It is not used in any kind of professional production environment, which is the market PP is geared towards.

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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Maybe, but I cannot tell you how much I LOATHE this answer I see all the time from people on this and other professional boards.  I am in a "professional production environment" and we are using "professional" software. 

I realize it's not 'normal' but keep in mind that the iPhone, the most popular camera in the US today, records video at a variable frame rate and that Premiere Pro, one of the most popular pieces of software still can't properly handle it and keep in sync.

I don't understand how software like VLC and WMP can playback the file just fine but the minds at Adobe can't figure out a way for us to this video in our projects.  It just boggles my mind.

There has to be an answer!

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LEGEND ,
Dec 05, 2012

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There is.  Get your video from a real video camera, not a phone.

If you insist on using consumer hardware to record video, there are plenty of consumer level applications out there that will probably work better than PP for the task.

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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While I appreciate your replies, you aren't helping at all.  We use a mix of harware in our studio including consumer level camcorders, higher end devices like the 7D and 5D Mark II and sometimes we record live events as well. 

Telling a customer to "use better hardware you unprofessional loser" is about as professional as you seem to think I am.

I am looking for solutions, and actual answers as to why Adobe continues to NOT support this kind of workflow while their competition DOES.

[Not sure why your original word was stamped out by the forum software. I added a synonym that should convey the same meaning] Edited by: Jeff Bellune

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Dec 05, 2012

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Playing and editing are not at all the same

If you need to edit from an iphone, you probably need to use Apple software

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LEGEND ,
Dec 05, 2012

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Telling a customer to "use better hardware you unprofessional loser"

Hardly what I said or meant.  If you want your video to work with PP, then you need to use compatible hardware to capture that video.  With the current version of PP, that does sometimes leave out some consumer level hardware.  The solution, then, is to not use that hardware if you wish to use PP.  If using that hardware is the larger priority, then you may need to find other software to edit with.

As to why Adobe doesn't yet support it, it's more than likely because not enough of PP's market base uses it to make adding support worth the investment of limited resources.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 05, 2012

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I am looking for solutions, and actual answers as to why Adobe continues to NOT support this kind of workflow while their competition DOES.

Yes, let's remove the "professional" "unprofessional" issues from the equation. The bottom line is that Premiere (any adobe apps?) does not handle variable frame rate at this time. We rarely get any glimpses of why adobe management pursues some feature requests and abandons others. We are fairly confident it is related to the financial bottom line.

Feature request form.

What major editing platforms provide support for variable framerate? Curious.

I'll also say that conversion tools have been very important to many segments of the editing community as various HD and compression methods have appeared and become more popular (or not).

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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Currently I know 100% that Sony Vegas will handle real time editing of these files without issues but our people are simply not trained on it and I have invested quite a bit in the Adobe ecosystem as it stands.

We have used conversion apps in the past yes and it can SOMETIMES fix it by stabilizing the frame rate but other times the problem remains - this happened to be one of those days.  Also, that can add 30-50 minutes of transcode time per file to the workflow which can be damning in the world of real-time video.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Dec 05, 2012

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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That is indeed one of the fixes we have tried in the past, but on this particular instance the simple transcode (which is what the Quicktime Saving thing actually does) didn't fix it.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 05, 2012

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Is there an alternative to X Split that might produce a more Premiere friendly file?

If some files do work when transcoded (fixed) and others dont...how can you blame Adobe for that?

If the editing  of these file is so important in your studio environment and business..why would you not train your people in an application that fully meets your needs. eg Vegas if thats the case as you say it does 100%. 

They are only tools....and choosing the right one for the job would be seemingly logical and productive.

Maybe down the track ...Premiere will be able to do what you want.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Dec 05, 2012

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rmshro0 wrote:

That is indeed one of the fixes we have tried in the past, but on this particular instance the simple transcode (which is what the Quicktime Saving thing actually does) didn't fix it.

Well, if Apple's own Quicktime can't make the file work, I don't think Adobe can do anything to fix what is, after all, an Apple product

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Adobe Employee ,
Dec 05, 2012

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If you want an idea of how the feature request system works - take a look here.  http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2012/12/top-feature-requests-for-after-effects-in-2012.html

It is for After Effects but the only difference is that Todd posted the work that he does on his blog.  The same sort of process happens with Premiere Pro.

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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John T Smith wrote:

rmshro0 wrote:

That is indeed one of the fixes we have tried in the past, but on this particular instance the simple transcode (which is what the Quicktime Saving thing actually does) didn't fix it.

Well, if Apple's own Quicktime can't make the file work, I don't think Adobe can do anything to fix what is, after all, an Apple product

Actually the files we are trying to edit come from Xsplit, not anything Apple. 

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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shooternz wrote:

Is there an alternative to X Split that might produce a more Premiere friendly file?

If some files do work when transcoded (fixed) and others dont...how can you blame Adobe for that?

If the editing  of these file is so important in your studio environment and business..why would you not train your people in an application that fully meets your needs. eg Vegas if thats the case as you say it does 100%. 

They are only tools....and choosing the right one for the job would be seemingly logical and productive.

Maybe down the track ...Premiere will be able to do what you want.

Both the major programs for game streaming and live stream, Xsplit and Wirecast, record files that are variable frame rates.  Both have the same problem as we have tried both applications.

The reason we are using Adobe still is that we have been using PP for many years BEFORE doing live streaming was part of our portfolio.  We still do other video projects including commercials using DSLRs for video and I'd rather not have to move away from what we have invested (in time and software) on Adobe.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 05, 2012

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I took a look at what XSplit is and does.

Where does the need arise for Premiere with the files that come from XSplit?

Xsplit seems to be a self contained "live broadcaster" of media compiled within it self.  THen it streams to various "web broadcasters".

Asumeably it keeps (records)  a copy of what it is streaming?  What do you need Premiere for?

Just curious about this.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 05, 2012

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It is for After Effects but the only difference is that Todd posted the work that he does on his blog.  The same sort of process happens with Premiere Pro.

Yes, and we'd love to see one for Premiere Pro!

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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shooternz wrote:

I took a look at what XSplit is and does.

Where does the need arise for Premiere with the files that come from XSplit?

Xsplit seems to be a self contained "live broadcaster" of media compiled within it self.  THen it streams to various "web broadcasters".

Asumeably it keeps (records)  a copy of what it is streaming?  What do you need Premiere for?

Just curious about this.

After the live broadcast we take the recorded file and edit it for time and offer it on demand. 

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LEGEND ,
Dec 05, 2012

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Ah ha...I get it.

...played back inside Premiere CS6 the file drifts out of sync so at the end of a 2 hour clip, we are talking more than a full second or so.

Is that the only issue?

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LEGEND ,
Dec 05, 2012

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They are only tools....and choosing the right one for the job would be seemingly logical and productive.

That was the point I was making.  Well said.

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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shooternz wrote:

Ah ha...I get it.

...played back inside Premiere CS6 the file drifts out of sync so at the end of a 2 hour clip, we are talking more than a full second or so.

Is that the only issue?

Correct!

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LEGEND ,
Dec 05, 2012

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I wonder what would happen if you tried "Interpret Footage" - Speed -  function on the clip.

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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I have tried that.  I can 'massage' the out of sync issues a bit but it still goes one way or the other.  Mapping a variable frame rate to a static one just continues to cause problems.

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Participant ,
Apr 17, 2013

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I can't believe as a "MVP" member of this forum that you could be as so ignorant to the importance of live streaming productions and in particularly (for which is the most common scenario for the OP's question) the video gaming industry. Video games are a mulit-BILLION dollar industry and generates an INSTANT user base for streamers and YouTubers WAY faster than any indie "film" production (all marketing aside). And to say video from any source is not worthy to be used unless it's from a "REAL" camera.. well you sir are then NO artist.. and are not helping the creative process. Great movies have been made with JUST iphones and ipads... if you don't belive go to some indie feastivals or simply YouTube it. People can do amazing things with the little they have, and the mentallity that "OH well you just need to spend more money on machinery to be worth a damn" is utter BS. I know this post is old but I was SOOOO fercious when I read it and how a "MVP" responded and no one said anything that I will say something now.

Adobe should have a solution or atleast a basic workflow implementation for variable frame rates. No ifs or buts about it.

[offensive personal insult removed]

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LEGEND ,
Apr 17, 2013

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Just because you are angry does not give you the right to violate forum rules by insulting other users and/or using offensive language.  Please keep it civil and G-rated.

Jeff

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Participant ,
Apr 20, 2013

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As a big board owner myself I say what is ethically appropriate and what is not is subjective to all and different for every forum. If moderators here do no stand up for their members with legitimate concerns who are snobbishly abused by other members then Adobe PR is not doing a good job concerning this forum.

It's easy to notice that I had no personal involvement in this thread up until now and next to no other activity in this forum should suggest a very clear picture that there is something very wrong with the situation. But thank you for addressing the issue with whom I had a complaint with as I see his reply he made suggesting that adobe doesn't care about "teenagers" was deleted. It is incredibly ignorant for someone to say video gaming is only limited to teenagers. As any market research will show that the assumption/statement is entirely incorrect. Let alone saying that Adobe products "should not support" variable frame rates on imported files instead of offering viable workaround solutions to the OP.

To the OP and others with the same issue.

If you are dealing with variable frame rates in FLV files (typical stream format of live streaming services) you can save your streamed files locally and use a program called FLV_Extract which will extract 3 files (audio, video, and log) from your FLVs.. from there you can use Yamb (make sure to download MP4Box as well and place in the correct Yamb subdir) to combine the FLV contents into an Adobe supported MP4 or alternative with NO transcoding. This will ensure that you don't loss any data or suffer any quality loss (keep in mind you may still loss quality for final render). If there's is audio synce issues and you are using only cuts of the whole stream then simply unllink the audio from the video and slide the audio left or right to adjust for the sync issue. If you wish to use the whole stream and audio lag fluxuates then it will be very hard to adjust but is still possible.

From whta I notice using Quicktime Pro to render out a a CFR version not only degrades quality from re-encoding BUT tends to waste a ton of resources (CPU time) and that time can be better spent in your project timeline and final render.

So with live streams, when there's a huge frame rate drops (imo over 5 frames up to 8 is moderate but 10 or over is very notice-able) I just don't use those areas and slide my audio track back into sync. It's not perfect... but atleast there's no transcoding for import and at least some of the stream is still use-able.

Good luck!

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2013

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I came here just to say a big thank you to Levyimage, for providing the only genuinely useful comment in this thread reply to the OP. Amazing that it's only taken 4 months to get to this point. Thankfully, my client has spent that long dithering so now I can hopefully actually deliver. Cheers!

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Contributor ,
Dec 05, 2012

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"How is it possible Premiere still cannot handle variable frame rate video?"

Let's flip this around. My question is: "How is it possible that these non-videocam devices still cannot produce constant frame rate video?" Why do people use such low quality capture devices and expect PPro to bail them out?

I can see Adobe maybe adding some transcoding features into, say, Prelude to transcode non-conforming video into something usable by PPro, as part of the process of handing it off to PPro. But adding this to PPro, which already supports the vast majority of video standards, is just piling on.

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Explorer ,
Dec 05, 2012

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Fair enough, but argument there would be that while Xsplit is $30, Premiere Pro is...much more.    Also, this program is not the only that records in variable frame rate, sometimes by necessity.  I mentioned above that recent iPhones will often dip into variable frame rates in low light.  And if a user can't know for sure if its variable or static, I just think software should make good faith efforts to plan for it.  Obviously Sony's Vegas has done so.

I'm not saying something couldn't be done on both ends.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 09, 2012

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if a user can't know for sure if its variable or static, I just think software should make good faith efforts to plan for it.

I think the opposite.  The user should know how their tools function and plan accordingly.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2013

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And also…

Jim Simon wrote:

if a user can't know for sure if its variable or static, I just think software should make good faith efforts to plan for it.

I think the opposite.  The user should know how their tools function and plan accordingly.

Yes, it's a valid point and you have made this point repeatedly, despite the OP and many other pointing out how little relevance it has in this particular conversation. Perhaps you are fortunate enough to be able to tell your clients they're not using the right tools, but I and many others are not. I have very little control over how my raw materials are captured. Nonetheless, I am required to produce professional videos from these materials for my clients.

[Personal insult removed]

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LEGEND ,
Apr 26, 2013

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Again, a reminder to keep things clean and civil.  Personal insults or attacks, no matter how thinly disguised, are not permitted.

Jeff

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Adobe Employee ,
Apr 26, 2013

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In response to your point, let me explain a little bit about adding features.  This is not just true of Adobe, but all software development.

It comes down to a balancing act.  We only have so much time per software cycle to get new features added into Premiere.  Even simple additions take some time to implement and test before they can go live so there has to be some prioritizing happening.

So, to prioritize we look at several factors.  First, how many customers are asking for a feature.  Some features are in demand, overwhelming our product teams.  Others are for a specific niche market, that could really use this feature but it is not something the majority of our users would even notice.  The way we gauge this demand is through customer contact:  feature request forums, these forums and direct customer feedback.  That gives us the best possible picture of what all of our customers want.

Second, we have to look at how difficult it can be to implement the requested feature.  Some features can be easily added - moving a button in the interface for example.  Some features are very difficult to implement - the warp stabilizer was the result of a lot of hard work.  What you are asking for may be very difficult to implement, even if other software companies have implemented it.  I do not know.  The people who know this are the engineers who are looking into what features they are going to focus on.

Third, we have to look at all the feature requests we get.  From a pure time budgeting perspective, it is impossible to get every feature enabled.  We all have pet projects we would love to see implemented that there hasn't been time to implement yet.

We have to take all of those criteria, and balance them.  So, sometimes we get a feature that is easy to implement, that many people are demanding, and we have the time and resources available, so it becomes included in the next version.  Often, it doesn't come together that nicely.  We do keep going at it.  Maybe we don't have the resources this cycle.  Maybe the demand is growing between cycles. 

The short part of this long story is the fact that we are still looking at all possibilities.  Send in those feature requests - higher demand is always a good thing.  We reevaluate those on a regular basis.  We do not ignore anybody because we think they don't have the right equipment.  We just are looking at a very large picture.

On another note, this thread has gotten very contentious.  Keeping things on a civil level helps too - the people who decide the features to implement are human too and can have preconceptions if it appears that someone is acting irrationally.  I mean that for everyone involved - we need to act like professionals.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 26, 2013

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Thanks for your reply, Greg. I actually work in software development myself, and the videos I produce are part of our user testing process, so I understand where you are coming from better than most.

I think your reply is probably more relevant to the OP or others on this thread. As you will notice, I simply came here to congratulate someone on their constructive comment. On reading the thread again, I felt compelled to point out once again how unhelpful one commenter has been throughout. I'm new to these forums (having created this account solely for the purpose of congratulating Levyimage) so I can only assume MVP is a badge of some sort for valuable contributions. In this case, I feel that if it is not already abundantly clear, this person has nothing of value to contribute to this particular discussion.

As I said before, this forum is itself a tool. I have now seen how it functions and I will plan accordingly. Some tools are less necessary than others. Readers will kindly note that my initial message (prior to further moderation) was, in fact, self-censored and entirely civil.

Adieu.

[EDIT]

+1 for Greg's excellent explanation of the challenges faced in software development.

In the interest of helping others who might come to this thread looking for information on how to work with screencaptured footage in Premiere, we have found iShowU HD Pro to be an invaluable tool.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 26, 2013

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Greg,

Very well-stated. We have seen much of that information, and some of us have sort of parroted some of it.

I will very likely link to this thread, and point out your response in it, when I encounter the "why has Adobe not included ____ ?" questions elsewhere.

Thank you for taking the time to articulate the situation.

Hunt

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LEGEND ,
Apr 26, 2013

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it's a valid point and you have made this point repeatedly, despite the OP and many other pointing out how little relevance it has in this particular conversation.

I think it's very relevant.

At this point in time, PP has trouble with variable frame rate video.  Sooo....either don't record variable frame rate video, or use another tool that can handle that video, either for editing or for conversion.  That it took 4 months for someone to post a process for conversion isn't my fault.  I don't use VFR video, so didn't have a conversion method to recommend.

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2013

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Yes you are right, this thread was contentious starting from the first posts to even me joining and saying something because of the contention to make even worse lol.

But yea I'm glad a staff member made a comment concerning VFR content.

Warp Stabilizer... hats off to all the math and hard work everyone did to get that in there.

I'm assuming the wishlist of features is still being looked at for PP in CS7?

If so I'm suggesting that PP (probably the easiest and most professional NLE out there to use) allow support to the point for VFR content that you'll pull in more streamers...

in fact if you market to streamers that use eg Twitch.TV (assuming your marginal returns and IRR justify the VFR support addition) you'll probably pull in more happy lifelong customers.

Some ideas...

I assume implementing this wouldn't be too hard if you use a frame filling algorithm to pad the video for commonly dropped frames that usually plague online streaming. And since the audio track (although many times slightly delayed after video) is usually the most stable, maybe a slider (left-right) sync option once the video has the frame fill algorithm applied (to make the VFR essentially CFR) would then be step number 2.

Just an idea.

Hopefully someone with Adobe runs with it.

FYI as a reminder to everyone… the last thing you should do is transcode your VFR content just to use in an NLE that will be re-rendered again. Doing so will degrade your content and take up WAY too much of your time that could be better spent in your NLE like PP, Avid, Vegas, etc. All of which do not currently support (at the time of this post) VFR content with dropped frames effectively. But hopefully as they notice the live streaming trend expanding they may just add such support. Fingers crossed!

See my previous post on how to convert VFR flv files to Adobe supported MP4 files.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 26, 2013

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I think there are better options here.  For starters, don't try editing streamed video, meaning recorded on the other end.  Something must be generating the video that's being streamed, and that will almost certainly be constant frame rate and have less compression.  It's better to edit that original than the streamed result.

Secondly stream only at the frame rate of that original.

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2013

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You are not being real world here Jim and you're continuing to be contentious.

Yes in the IDEAL world of course one would have an uncompressed feed to a local machine for later editing.

But that is EXTRODINARILY costly in terms of storage space, processing, and time.

In the majority of REAL WORLD streamers, they have one computer which is not too great (usually under the $4000 range), one capture card and web camera,

and have limited bandwidth.

And alot of times the streamer doesn't use NLE's but have a friend edit their streams for them for YouTube content.

Regardless of the streamers technical abilities, the capture device goes straight to Xsplit, OBS, AmaRecTV, FFsplit, etc which are the tools that use CPU to transcode the capture to a stream-able signal which usually can NOT go over 4000KBs as doing so will not allow many viewers the ability to watch as the bandwidth would be too high for their connection.

Streaming workflows for majority of streamers IS NO WHERE NEAR the same workflows as professional production studios....

so that notion of applying the same practice methods needs to be thrown out the window right now. It's not the same and just because it is lower scale in terms of money and equipment does not mean it should be scoffed at.

It is cost effective to simply take the live stream output and edit it for YouTube when ready as the quality loss is usually not noticeably so long as it only goes through one generation of transcoding for final render. It takes incredibly LESS storage space and noticeably LESS CPU resources to work with. At a cost of video quality which only really matters to videophile gear heads which are in an ENTIRELY different market… Live Streams and videos from live streams have COMPLETELY different expectations on them then what’s expected from a professionally done movie. I’m stating a lot of what should be obvious…

Also a lot of the time Streams cannot be set at the captured frame rate.

So do us a favor Jim Simon as you are obviously not an expert on live streaming…. Stop saying what we should and shouldn’t be doing concerning live stream editing until you get some real experience in that field.

As that is the only situation in which you could be helpful here…. Which is if you had real world live streaming experience and practical editing workflows for such. Good day.

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New Here ,
May 03, 2013

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I recently recorded gameplay from my xbox, when i open this recording using windows media player it states that the video is 3 hours 30 minutes long, which is correct, when i then import this into premiere pro, premiere pro changes it to be 5 hours and 44 minutes long, when i then play this back it plays in slow motion and audio and video start to desync, i thought it may just be the source editor playing up so i made a clip and put it into the timeline and it still had the same outcome. The speed/duration are still on 100% so im not sure what to do, anyone have any idea as to what this is, or why it is happening?I recently recorded gameplay from my xbox, when i open this recording using windows media player it states that the video is 3 hours 30 minutes long, which is correct, when i then import this into premiere pro, premiere pro changes it to be 5 hours and 44 minutes long, when i then play this back it plays in slow motion and audio and video start to desync, i thought it may just be the source editor playing up so i made a clip and put it into the timeline and it still had the same outcome. The speed/duration are still on 100% so im not sure what to do, anyone have any idea as to what this is, or why it is happening? The frame rate is variable but so are other gameplay clips i have used, and they have been fine, why is it this clip decides to do this?

and is there any way around it?

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Participant ,
May 03, 2013

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That's happened to me before, so long as the variable framerate file is SOMEWHAT stable (eg stays around 29.97 or 59.94 or whatever was set as target framerate) you can re-interpret the footage in premier to the correct frame rate.

It seems adobe thinks it's a 30fps file when maybe it's actually a 60fps file... you were the one recording so you should have an idea or be able to trace back your steps to find out what your target frame rate was. Once you re-interpret to the target frame rate in Adobe, you'll have to chop up the clip, de-link audio, and slide the audio tracks around into sync. Unfortunately I don't know of a plugin for PP that will fix variable frame rate video files that have framedrop outs.. especially drastic ones. Best of luck, it's hard to fix but do-able.

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LEGEND ,
May 06, 2013

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one capture card and web camera,

There's the problem right there.  If you intend any editing at all, don't use a web cam, use a video camera that records video compatible with your edit system (in this case, PP).

The point being, don't expect the software to accommodate every possible video signal.  I think Adobe engineers would go mad trying to build that in.  Rather, if you intend to use PP, then you should be working within it's capabilities when you generate the content you'll be editing.

That is eminently practical and 'real world'.

So do us a favor Jim Simon as you are obviously not an expert on live streaming

I'll grant you that.  But I have done it on numerous occasions.  And I've had no trouble editing the content sent over the stream.  We use real video cameras, send their output to a switcher, send it's output to an encoder, and it's output over the web.  We record the program out, and sometimes iso record the cameras.  It works, because we do it in a way that works.

Now, you can file your feature request, and maybe someday Adobe will accommodate.  But at this point in time, I do not have a problem editing streamed content, and you do.  Something to keep in mind when you read my posts.

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New Here ,
Jun 19, 2013

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Jim,

Truly no offense, but you should step down from this conversation....

The days of recording the stream on the camera side and editing that are kind of out the door with DSLR streaming and a few other commonly used cameras. At some point in the future that might be an option again, but at this point recording while you stream often times is not an option, so you need a software solution or if you have the budget an external recorder ... like the Ki Pro by Aja.

If you are wondering why it's not an option, just google DSLR - Clean HDMI Streaming and just DSLR Streaming in general... often times when you push record the signal coming out of the camera gets downgraded, and there are a whole mess of other strange little issues that you'll find when streaming DSLR's.

The new generation of media creation is all about low cost, speed, best quality possible in that order. Webcams, YouTube, DSLR's and all of that is easily the fastest growing market in the world right now generating millions of dollars. Professional software has to rise to meet that demand or professionals like us are simply going to hitch our horse to a different stable.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 19, 2013

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Nonetheless, I am required to produce professional videos from these materials for my clients

How do you create professional videos from toys? Like creating a professional painting and having only a kinder garten drawing to start with.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jun 19, 2013

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Swazzlehoff31,

I agree, we should not be discounting anybody's needs.  There are many reasons why a professional may need the ability to work with variable frame rate video.  However, we do have to focus on other issues while deciding on what features to implement.  We have to look at the most common workflows so that we can provide the best service to the largest number of customers we can.  If this is an up-and-coming need, submit those bug reports.  The more of these reports we have, the more likely we are to allocate resources to providing a solution.

To be clear - we understand your needs.  The more push we have from people like you, people in our forums, and especially people who submit feature request, the more likely we are to implement features for this type of video files.

On another note, if this thread becomes any more contentious with the "use real tools" type of conversation, I will have to look into locking this thread.  I do not want to do that because I think this is a useful and interesting conversation. Please don't make me interrupt it.

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Explorer ,
Jun 19, 2013

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Harm Millaard wrote:

Nonetheless, I am required to produce professional videos from these materials for my clients

How do you create professional videos from toys? Like creating a professional painting and having only a kinder garten drawing to start with.

As the original starter of this thread - how is this guy still allowed on the forums with commentary like this?  If anyone from the staff group is actually paying attention, you should pay attention to how those of us with thousands of dollars invested in your product are being treated on the official support site.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jun 19, 2013

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Like I said before, this type of response from here on out will mean this thread will get locked.  On either side - do not attack the professionality of the users on these forums.  That's the best we can do.

Believe me, the staff is paying attention to all threads, especially ones with 56 replies in them.

On a personal level, I find this thread fascinating and want to keep the discussion going.  I'm learning all new ways these variable frame rate formats are being made these days.

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New Here ,
Jun 19, 2013

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I'm also finding this discussion fascinating.

I use variable frame rate video from screen capture apps like ScreenFlow. For a screen capture, most of the screen isn't moving most of the time. So if I'm doing a multi-cam sequence with screen capture and live video, I need to use the frame rate of the live video (29.97). If I were able to use variable frame rate video in Premiere, I could use video files straight from ScreenFlow.

As is, I need to re-compress all my ScreenFlow videos such that every frame is a keyframe. The downside is that I end up with huge files where a smaller one would do.

http://www.telestream.net/screenflow/

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 19, 2013

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I have noticed there are a lot of folks here who are involved in old-school editing and offer a lot of good advice on the subject. A good number of them probably have no need to look outside the environment that has provided them with a living for a large portion of their career and, quite frankly, may have no desire to do so. As a result, there is the potential to "not keep up with the times"; again, they have no need to because their client base is firmly entrenched in more tradition means of production. If, in the past, they have been able to offer good advice that was relevant it could be difficult for them to understand how the same advice that was relevant and well received in the past may not be as relevant (nor well received) to the most current production standards and practices. Times change and not everyone changes with them so perhaps it's best to let certain comments go unnoticed and unremarked upon.

The above also applies to Adobe. Premiere has existed on the fringes of certain levels of the NLE world for most of it's life while becoming a sort of "official" NLE for cottage industry production (especially before FCP). Premiere's engineers could be as unaware of how contemporary production is accomplished at certain levels as some of their users. They are playing catch up and unfortunately for them they appear out of the loop on certain subjects and, with a few exceptions, not many players have the need or desire to offer Adobe the kind of insight the big dogs get. Why would an editor waste time talking to Adobe when they already have an ongoing dialog with another company (whose name we dare not speak)? Put another way, if the only people filling out "feature request forms" are people unfamiliar with current production trends at a "certain" level Adobe can never get a real picture of what they need to do to become relevant to the sort users whom they would like to court. It's a closed loop.

The other side of this coin is a similar closed loop involving those who are trying to reinvent the wheel under the mistaken perception they they are on the cutting edge of something that has already been incorporated into current production standards and practices. They can sometimes be as inflexible as their critics; believing themselves to be leading a vanguard that will soon follow. Again, not having access to those who are working at a certain level creates an environment in a vacuum. Sometimes working in isolation does lead to interesting ways of doing things and creative solutions to vexing technical challenges but, more often than not, it leads to contention between the old guard and the new. It becomes a lose lose for both sides. The "old guard" refuses to considere a change to the status quo that could lead to an increase in marketable skill set and the "new guard" dismisses the more experienced as ignorant of "trends" at the expense of the benefits of developing a relationship with a potential mentor.

As someone who has worked on set at both ends of the spectrum (anywhere from $180,000,000 to $180,000 budgets), I can attest to the fact that just about every form of capture is coming into play in the current production environment and everyone in every department is expected to do their homework, learn the new techniques, get fully on-board with the program, and keep their opinions to themselves, or retire. It may seem harsh but that's the way it is. No one on set or anywhere else in the production process wants to suffer a constant litany of negative grumbling from anyone about how everyone in "the business" are lowering their standards, and things would be so much better and would go more smoothly if only we could stop using (insert so called inferior device or technique) and go back to using (insert so called superior device or technique) that was once common, etc. Let a producer or someone else above the line overhear such grumbling and watch how quickly the back of the call sheet changes.

Having said that, the advice I have gotten from some of the "old-school" folks here has been and will continue to be of great value to me and much appreciated. It's all a matter of context on one hand and understanding on the other.

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Participant ,
Jun 19, 2013

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Yea please keep this thread alive so more can contribute.

To answer the statement made a few posts back:

Topic: Producing professional content with consumer to pro-consumer products outputing content at variable framerates.

Research that should be done before writing off the need for variable frame rate support:

The trends and future of entertainment are pushing harder toward instant feedback and instant consumer interaction (see Xbox One integration with NFL for instant consumer feedback and interaction) and so live streaming TV shows is happening more often (I'm even in the middle of producing one in fact). Because of bandwidth limitations of consumers... variable frame rates are most cost effective for everyone involved in that platform.

Another benefit is the drastic storage space savings. If I can record a 1 hour partially live show every week in 1080p (soon to be 4K standard in maybe 2 to 5 years depending on economies of scale and market response for UHD TVs) along with all the other projects I'm working on.. I'd much rather minimize my storage demands by working with live lossy captures as much as possible. Content can trump quality almost always up to a point and so I prefer pumping out content fast to my audience as they want it... instead of taking a lot of time and resources to get it out later for them.

So yea editing CFR RAW footage gives a lot of editing leeway and is very forgiving to work with from the get go.... but damn.... I don't want to store all that footage as an independant producer on my budget... no f*ing way.

What would be nice.... would be newer broadcast format algorythms for lossy that is on par with lossless quality and uber low bandwidth requirements in comparison with today's tech so end consumers can view with greater ease. But that may not happen any time soon except for closed units like the XBOX ONE, PLAYSTATION 4, etc

In the mean time... what I'm doing is recording both decent quality CFR and also working with the left over variable frame rate footage from livestreams to Twitch.TV.

I'm working on a show where fans can influence and interact with the cast THROUGH twitch.TV while the show is recording ... and later the twitch.tv live stream footage is edited into the show for cohesion before the actual full show is released. This is a somewhat new approach I'm taking with my indie shows and I think a lot more producers are going to hop on the band wagon because of the real connection the audience can have with the show via the LIVE INTERACTION platform.. stage 1 recording <-- live interaction with audience ... stage 2 final release <-- with content not seen / heard during stage 1 live stream session. I'll publish press releases via davidaelevy.com if anyone is interested.

So if Adobe included variable frame rate support.. it would entice people in my situation to use their product.

And considering this thread has kept consumers from leaving Adobe (thank you for the shout out, I appreciate that)... maybe Adobe would consider making it easier for us because my solution is not time effective and not perfect.

Live streaming is the new thing to do... so let's all do the right thing.. give people what they want.

edit:

on another note... remember how so many photographers hated the new digital camera age emergence because it would mean more competition and less demand for their services (and the art of film developing) ?

And now making a good living as a photographer is NOTHING (from my own experience) like it used to be before the last 10 years. If people want a okay to decent headshot.. they can just use their cell phone now. That... (stating the obvious to make a point) ...  wasn't the case 10 years ago....

And cameras, computers, technology and software is becoming SOO much more accessible... more people can contribute different takes on ideas, new platforms, new markets, new demands.

So what I'm trying to say to the negative nancies... embrace/adjust for change... be nible and agile... stay hip... be open to new ideas...

because the imo live streamer and indie producer is not a peasant to be spit at.. and neither are their modest tools. Neither is the director who shot a whole movie on an iphone and gets national attention and awards and new business opportunities because of it.... just saying... a rigid (not adapting to consumer need) product.. imo is a product that will eventually die... (unless it's something like toliet paper.. or water...).. well you get my point anyway I hope.

added a quick thought

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 19, 2013

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>What would be nice.... would be newer broadcast format algorythms

See note on H.265 http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1142160

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Participant ,
Jun 19, 2013

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Thank you, Yea I read the press releases on H.265 and read through the main site a very long time ago, it's an increadible technology! But from what I understood end user implementation won't happen for a long while. All major OS would have to implement it in updates or at the very least in future OS releases as well as applicable hardware vendors. It's a little different than say just one software developer adding in a feature... we're talking global implementation across hundreds of platforms.. that will probably take a great deal of time. But the codec definately looks future proof for at least 10 years with what it can handle, very cool stuff! Imagine streaming a live 8K broadcast to everyone's TV walls of the future.... dayum.. awesomeness!

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People's Champ ,
Jun 19, 2013

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I have been following this conversation with interest and I have yet to see an answer to what I am curious about, so I figured it was probably time to ask.

I use a screen capture utility that uses a constant bit rate and I understand that the file size can get quite large. And while I also understand that capturing video at a lower frame rate for slow moving action and a higher frame rate for more action makes a lot of sense, exactly how should a frame based editing program treat the video?

If the video frame rate is all over the map, should Premiere Pro create a timeline using the maximum frame rate and then fill in the other frames with duplicates of the ones before and/or after them?

What would be optimum? You see, I can't figure out exactly what you are asking for. I haven't seen a detailed feature request explaining how to work with variable rates, just outrage that Premiere Pro doesn't work with variable rates.

Can someone explain exactly what they want Adobe to do?

If there is such an explanation and I missed it, I apologize. Just point me to it and I will stay out of the fray.

artofzootography.com

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Participant ,
Jun 19, 2013

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Hi Steven,

There are at least 2 entirely separate issues I think you're addressing there (eg your speaking of a different capture situation).

But in my opinion the original issue was how to make the best with an already existing variable frame rate video file from streaming type media recording and how to make it work in Adobe. Which a very crude work around was given.

So that aside,

To answer your question about how should a NLE treat the video? (I assume you're alluding to VFR videos)

Honestly I don't know what is best... but I have some ideas to offer.

Should Adobe fill the frame to hit target frame rate?

Yes and no.... I think there should be an interpretive option to do so that uses intelligent algorithms to interpret the footage frame rate flux and fill with frames that either compensate and/or intelligently apply differences instead of just "filling' the frames based on previous and next image. Doing a basic fill might cause choppiness... not sure how that would look.

What would be optimum?

…. You know how Twixtor is the BEST slow mo plugin on the market (IMHO) right now? Whatever magic they do to make those frame gaps smooth.. the same process or modified process should be used for various detail levels of VFR stabilization.

No, there was no in-depth explanation.. yet... because I was personally just asking Adobe to make life easier for OP and myself and people in same situation. Apart from originally being outraged at the lack of consideration the OP was receiving which is why I signed up on the forums in the first place to say something about it. But back on topic, any step saved is more time better spent elsewhere. So if adobe can add support for VFR and VFR fla it would be good. The fancy swanky idea of making VFR to CFR conversion on par with Twixtor.. well that would just steal the show.

Hope this helps paint a more complete picture and answers part of your questions.

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New Here ,
Dec 08, 2012

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I am having a similar issue, however from what i can tell it is 'constant' rate, not variable.

I am transfering old footage from a HI-8 tape deck. I am using the Sony DV200. It is connected via firewire to PC.  Using PP CS6 to capture. During capture audio is in sync, however when it is done and imports into PP timeline (or even before) it does drift out of sync.  As others have noted, in Windows Media or VLC it plays fine. It is 'only'when within PP.  I cannot figure this out and manually finding the out of sync point and correcting is unnacceptable. 

the fact that other players don't exhibit the issue is perplexing.  The fact that i am capturing it from PP and using it within PP and PP is the one with the issue is also perplexing.

Again, i dn't believe this is a variable frame rate issue, as i used Mediainfo and it shows constant.

General
Complete name                            : D:\!Video-DVD\!Clients\Willis, Katie\#356V\KW-#356 - Copy.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
Format profile                           : OpenDML
File size                                : 25.7 GiB
Duration                                 : 2h 3mn
Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
Overall bit rate                         : 29.8 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : DV
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
Codec ID                                 : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint                            : Sony
Duration                                 : 2h 3mn
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 24.4 Mbps
Encoded bit rate                         : 28.8 Mbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:1:1
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.357
Stream size                              : 24.8 GiB (97%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings, Endianness              : Little
Format settings, Sign                    : Signed
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 2h 3mn
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 024 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 32.0 KHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 904 MiB (3%)
Interleave, duration                     : 968 ms (29.00 video frames)

any thoughts? advice?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 08, 2012

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Check your capture format or sequence setting; you have 32Kh audio.

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New Here ,
Dec 08, 2012

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the audio is 32kh, so my sequence is 32kh audio... so they match.

the video is captured within premier and ironically it is PP that has issue replaying it... any other program syncs fine.

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New Here ,
Jun 20, 2013

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This is off-topic to the Variable frame discussion, but worth answering r3consulting's problem - there are 2 different types of DV capture. DV isn't a variable frame rate format, but the 2 types of DV AVI files store the audio and video in different ways. One creates a single audio/video interleaved "stream" within the AVI file. The other stores the audio and video separately in the file, as 2 separate streams. This second variant always had sync trouble for files longer than about 30 minutes. Shouldn't happen if you capture DV QuickTime, or set the AVI capture to Type 1.

Here's Wikipedia's answer on the matter: "

  • DV-AVI is Microsoft's implementation of DV video file, which is wrapped into an AVI container. Two variants of wrapping are available: with Type 1 the multiplexed audio and video is saved into the video section of a single AVI file, with Type 2 video and audio are saved as separate streams in an AVI file (one video stream and one to four audio streams). This container is used primarily on Windows-based computers..."

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New Here ,
Dec 11, 2012

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I have a similar issue with audio/video sync on DV Transfer on tapes over 1 hr. ... sometimes it doesn't matter how long.. i think it is how it is handling 'bad frames' or indexing them... as most have said in windows media or other programs the capture plays fine, only when it is dropped in the timeline.

I spoke with adobe support and they lead me to a program for HDV capture, but that wasn't compatible .. so somehow i googled and found this program.. winDV.  it is a VERY small program that simply captures the DV Stream.  well after much testing.. IT WORKS. so you know what... i will just capture my video in this program.  DV Capture is just capturing the digital stream to the .avi... so it really doesn't matter what program is used to capture... and this doesn't seem to produce any issues when i drop the file into premier or encore for editing/authoring.

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/WinDV

just wanted to pass it along.

Rob

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