What color icc profile is Premiere Pro using when Color Management is turned off ?

Enthusiast ,
Apr 11, 2021 Apr 11, 2021

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Hello, I read when CM is turned on, PPro will read the icc color profile that is selected in the OS system using Windows color management.

 

So when I turn OFF CM, what is PPro reading?

 

Reason asking is, when I turn off CM, I get a jump in the gamma. Timeline gets brighter.  As if it's reading another icc ?

 

If CM is on or off, shouldn't it still be reading the same ICC in the OS ?

 

Thanks!

Letty

 

Here are my Windows color management settings, showing I've installed the ICC (using X-Rite)

 

Unless there is an error is my settings?

 

1.png2.png3.png4.png

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correct answers 1 Correct Answer

Enthusiast , Apr 15, 2021 Apr 15, 2021
***Solution***Solution***Solution!  ..... Did I mention, Solution? First off, kudos to chrisw44157881 for setting me in the right direction.  And of course, Neil for his time and insight. Chris sent this to me:Please keep in mind, the BDMV format simply encapsulates your videos into bluray format. they don't make a standard for you in colorspace rec. 709 16-235 BT1886. Either your bluray authoring software will need to do this or you need to export with a lut/grade/effect manually to turn your 2...

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Guide ,
Apr 11, 2021 Apr 11, 2021

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Confusingly, color management is always on even when its turned off. the only difference being, premiere won't fight you over what gets used. there used to be fun stories about when making premiere the active window, it would flicker cm and fight the .icc being used and by default, force translate using rec. 709 2.4.  

 

With cm on, it will still use it but add another translation through your custom .icc. I believe they are vertically layered processes, so you can't directly load in a P3 profile. This is also why .icc doesn't work with Wide Gamut profiles, because all .icc get clipped into rec.709 anyways. Too bad.

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 12, 2021 Apr 12, 2021

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Thanks, I'm trying to set up a decent work flow for color grading and disc creation.  In another post you recommended gpu color range 0-255 full.

 

The final project is for broadcast / bluray disc HDTV

 

Which set up do you like:

 

Set Up A:

CM is turned off. 

Computer monitor calibrated rec709 / gamma 2.4 100nits

GPU 0-255  

Use a video limiter in PPro to clip the peaks.

 

Set Up B:

CM is turned off. 

Computer monitor calibrated rec709 / gamma 2.4 100nits

GPU 16-235

 

Set Up C:

Your selections or changes from above.

 

 Also, I'd like to make a DCP of the project in the future and would like to have a work flow that will support that without too much trouble. (if possible)

 

Thanks for your input!
Letty

 

p.s. Did those Windows color management settings in the screen caps look OK ?  So hard to find accurate data in Google about the settings.  Too many variables.

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Guide ,
Apr 12, 2021 Apr 12, 2021

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DCP is full range 0-255. you can either use premiere's built in Wraptor DCP
encoder that takes 2.2 gamma source or you can export full range media to make 16 bit TIFF 2.6 gamma XYZ DCI white point jpeg2000's and finalize in openDCP.

 

setup premiere with CM on, rec. 709 2.4 nits 100.
if you have any 16-235 media, premiere should be automatically interpreting
it into the 0-255 range upon import, if not you'll need to use a video limiter.

if your actual physical monitor has a full range or video button, it needs to match what you're doing with your GPU. I would go full range on both if possible(so you can see the sub-blacks in the DCP).

 

If, for any reason, your HDMI output, video signal or monitor only supports 16-235, you'll have to set them all the same.

 

Your blueray will need a separate pass for legal video range. You can softproof with a video limiter or hard clip levels effects(its your choice) The export will need to support 16-235 gamma 2.4 inside the video codec itself either as metadata or pixel burn-in.

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 12, 2021 Apr 12, 2021

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Thank you very much for your advice.

 

1) your quote:  "if you have any 16-235 media..."    How can I check what my video is?  I thought most digital video was 16-235 ?  The camera was DVX100a , mini DV.  Doesn't sound like a high tech 'full range' camera to me.

 

2) My monitor might be 16-235 because it's hooked up with a hdmi cable, so maybe the GPU is treating it like an hdtv ?  and limited?

monitor is a LG ultra wide rgb.  

 

I will check with manufacturer and see what is up.  So if the monitor is native 16-235, I should set my GPU to the same.

And if the monitor is showing full range, I should set my GPU to full range.  All that correct?

 

And why am I turning color management on?  If the computer monitor is rec709, shouldn't that suffice?

 

Thank you!

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 11, 2021 Apr 11, 2021

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When you don't have the 'display color management' option turned on (selected) Premiere Pro assumes that your system is fully compliant with all Rec.709 standards. PrPro was built ... hardcoded, actually ... to run on systems with proper monitors setup, calibrated and profiled. Which is why there were originally no user controllable settings.

 

The app was just built to run with all internal math and processing for Rec.709 monitoring.

 

Then Apple in their glorious uniqueness came out with the Retina screens (beatiful but NOT sRGB/Rec.709) and further, chose to make their OS color management applet ColorSync mis-apply the Rec.709 standards ... doing things like only applying the scene (camera) transform function but not the also required display transform function, and of course, using an odd gamma instead of the 2.4 (2.2 allowed) basis of Rec.709 media.

 

So ... Adobe came up with the display color management option, which tells the app to look at the ICC profile (which it never did before) and if that's set to certain specific things like the Apple monitors, do X to remap the image. It actually works for more than the Apple systems now, but still is not absolutely necessary if the monitoring system is known to be tightly Rec.709 compliant.

 

They've added the ability to set sequence working color spaces in the last couple months, and even in the Modify/Interpret Footage dialog a couple formats can be controlled by the user with over-ride settings. Other changes will be coming as they work to get more of the needed code for HDR work built and tested.

 

But to reitirate, with display color managment (DCM) off, PrPro simply assumes all monitors are Rec.709 compliant and it doesn't do anything to the media. It just sends a Rec.709 signal to the monitors.

 

With DCM on, it will remap the image sent to the monitors to attempt to show a proper Rec.709 image on the screen.

 

Neil

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 12, 2021 Apr 12, 2021

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quote

But to reitirate, with display color managment (DCM) off, PrPro simply assumes all monitors are Rec.709 compliant and it doesn't do anything to the media. It just sends a Rec.709 signal to the monitors.

 

Yes, that makes sense, because when I turn off DCM, the timeline footage looks exactly what I'm getting on the HDTV.  For some reason, when I had DCM on, it looked great in the timeline, but it wasn't representing the final look of the exported footage.  I'm not sure why.  Either my calibration wasn't right to begin with, or it had something to do with gpu at 16-235 and not in full.  Chris says gpu should be at 0-255.  I'm waiting for his reply above to confirm.

 

So to confirm, my work flow is always going to be rec.709, so there is no need for me to turn on CM at all because my monitor is set for 709.   Also for AE, just leave it all off. 

 

The only remaining mystery then, is the GPU.    

1)  0-255  and use a video limiter?

or 

2) 16-235 and it will look fine.

 

I think you like #2 , but...  if the gpu is at 16-235 and is clipping the lows and highs, doesn't the HDTV clip it again? Or when I export it using H.264 bluray preset, does the Media Encoder clip it again?  That part is confusing.

What is doing the clipping and What is just displaying what I made without clipping it?

 

Thank you Neil, rather, I think I should say, Obi-Wan Haugen.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 12, 2021 Apr 12, 2021

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16-235. ALWAYS. The system knows which few files in what formats are 0-255, and will play them appropriately.

 

But unless you're working with full RGB 12-bit or higher files (primarily DPX) ... and I doubt you will be ... 16-235 is the only game in town to use. It's what say Resolve works in with Rec.709 media when on "auto" management also.

 

Neil

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Guide ,
Apr 12, 2021 Apr 12, 2021

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Neil, they need to make DCP's, so they have to work in full range to make the DCDM master.

setting up video range is good for dummy proofing broadcast, but not everyone grades broadcast.

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 12, 2021 Apr 12, 2021

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Update:   my monitor is essentially a large hdtv screen! who knew?  It's connected using HDMI cables, and from what I've read, the gpu is treating the monitor as if it was an hdtv with 16-235.   I was always wondering why, when I would change the gpu from Full to Limited, I didn't see a change on my monitor.  I think because the monitor is only showing 16-235.  Is that all about right? 

 

I think now I should calibrate with gpu set at 16-235 because that's the correct work flow?

 

I'll test later tonight and see if I get lucky.  

 

But, after I'm done with the whole project, I'd still like to make a DCP export. (I'll need bluray and DCP)  Am I going to run into problems because I'm editing in a 16-235 work flow for broadcast bluray?

 

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Guide ,
Apr 12, 2021 Apr 12, 2021

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At least you confirmed that you needed to match up your monitor and GPU. This stuff gets pretty tricky across various platforms so its no surprise color management is one tough cookie. dcp-o-matic supports 16-235 and openDCP uses full range as far as i know. I haven't tested adobe's wraptor DCP plugin to see if it translates that inside the included plugin. There may be a workaround such as exporting to a full range media and re-importing to create the DCP if wraptor DCP doesn't do the translation.

 

addenum:

make sure you use inode 128, ext2, partition 0 primary for the DCP so it doesn't crash the server!

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 13, 2021 Apr 13, 2021

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Thanks for that.  Some of it I don't understand, but I will study and research it.  

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 13, 2021 Apr 13, 2021

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Nothing is working.

 

I've tried every combination.

 

CM on, CM off, 0-255 , 16-235 , latest drivers and cuda,  h.265, .264, mpgs...

I can't take it anymore.

 

The end bluray will never match the timeline because of the gamma shift or whatever is causing it to not match.  I don't even care about the color, I just wish the levels would match.  But that is asking too much from Adobe to make software that will make a DECENT BLURAY.

 

I've contacted adobe and the tech couldn't even tell me what color range to use on the gpu ??? said "he'll get back to me."  right.  Doesn't matter, because all combinations don't work.

 

Even the pro's here have conflicting advice, full, limited, CM ON, no CM off.    ????  Nothing works.

 

I'M GIVING UP.  THERE ISN'T ANY ELSE TO TRY?

 

Premire Pro can NOT be used for color grading to make a bluray disc without buying an external monitor, and only that monitor can be used to color grade.  That's all there is to it.

 

I feel terrible that you all  have written so much on the subject, and none of it helped the problem. 

 

I still can't believe my setup will not make a decent bluray disc with software that is over 20 years old and was made to make bluray discs.  Thanks again Adobe for walking me down this path of all these weeks wasted and all the time I'll never get back.

 

I just don't understand this mess.

 

Now I have to go buy an external monitor, because my ultrawide HDTV rec709 calibrated desktop monitor I have is simply not sufficient to make a lousy bluray disc.

 

Oh, but it's rec709 and it's hdtv, but it just doesn't work to make a bluray with PPRo.  

 

There should be a disclaimer when you buy this expensive software, "If you want to make a bluray, don't hold your breath because there is no way you will ever make a clean bluray disk with PPro without buying an expensive external reference monitor, and don't forget the card you'll need to run it, and another desk to hold it, and when you're done, it will only look good on TV and not the computer.  So what is the point?

 

I QUIT.

 

THANKS FOR THE GREAT EXPENSIVE SOFTWARE ADOBE. I GUESS MAKING A BLURAY THAT MATCHES THE TIMELINE WAS JUST TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR.

 

 

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Guide ,
Apr 13, 2021 Apr 13, 2021

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Letty, why don't you simply plug your computer into your Television for a minute to see where it went wrong?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 13, 2021 Apr 13, 2021

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Your expectations are simply ... well, perhaps a bit above and beyond. What you're asking isn't within normal expectations because the devices ... things like TVs ... do not have exactly correct color management inside them. Period. Normally they're not even close. Every TV or other screen will show a different image than any other one. It's what happens.

 

I work daily with pro colorists. Who have to explain this over and over to their clients. To evaluate the grade, you have to be on properly setup devices. Which does not include any TV not run as explained below, nor "normal" computer system.

 

And these guys & gals work in Resolve, Baselight, and/or Avid.

 

They can't get that sort of a match without using a break-out box or i/o device to get the signal out of the computer without the OS or GPU affecting it, and then run the signal through a LUT box with a calibration specifically for that screen. Made by a high-end calibration software rather more expensive than the Xrite stuff.

 

The one exception is some of the newer iPads, if you know how to set them up. There's several things in their visual chain to turn off or set to a specific item. And then they can come pretty decently sort of almost close to a fully calibrated reference monitor image.

 

Neil

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 14, 2021 Apr 14, 2021

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How did I miss this setting in Adobe Media Encoder Preferences?

 

1.png

 

 

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Guide ,
Apr 14, 2021 Apr 14, 2021

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Hey Letty,

 

Did this checkbox burn-in 2.4 gamma upon export as expected?

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 15, 2021 Apr 15, 2021

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sorry, I guess you are not using Adobe media encoder....  that was an 'altered' check box as a joke.   I wish they had a box like that.

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Guide ,
Apr 15, 2021 Apr 15, 2021

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I thought it was a beta or something. if you have photoshop, you can make your own 2.2 to 2.4 gamma lut or use lattice.  and put in export lut dropdown, or edit directly with exiftool the raw metadata.

 

Resolve is free and has a gamma tag you can select in the export kind of like how you tricked me, but its real!

 

There are certain random options adobe puts in preferences in random places so you got my hopes up, nice one!

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 15, 2021 Apr 15, 2021

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***Solution***Solution***Solution!  ..... Did I mention, Solution?

 

First off, kudos to chrisw44157881 for setting me in the right direction.  And of course, Neil for his time and insight.


Chris sent this to me:

Please keep in mind, the BDMV format simply encapsulates your videos into bluray format. they don't make a standard for you in colorspace rec. 709 16-235 BT1886. Either your bluray authoring software will need to do this or you need to export with a lut/grade/effect manually to turn your 2.2 gamma video into 2.4(Premiere only temporararily displays 2.4 gamma translation in icc mode. When you export back out, it's still 2.2). That is probably why you are seeing a washed out image. The only exception to this is the wraptor DCP encoder as it expects a 2.2 gamma and burns in a 2.6 gamma and changes the colorspace/whitepoint.

 

"Encapsulates your video..."  was the key.

 

When I calibrated my computer monitor to rec709 gamma 2.4 and used color management of the same 709, I was seeing my clips thru the eyes of the 709 2.4 gamma and not as they really were.  So the timeline looked great after grading, but the export using h.264 bluray to the 'big screen hdtv' looked washed out, simply because I wasn't seeing the actual clip before sending it to export. The gamma shift looked brighter and a little washed out.

 

The solution:   (Trumpets playing)

1) GPU color range set to 16-235

2) Unchecked color management in PPro and AE (set AE to working space None and changed the drop down from 2.4 to 2.2 gamma)

3) Calibrated the computer monitor rec.709 2.2 gamma 100 nits (it's an hd monitor w/hdmi cable so the color range is 16-235)

When I did that, the PPro timeline brightened up, like the same gamma shift I got on the bluray export. 

4) Now, I am seeing the clips as they will be sent to export.  I simply adjust the levels and color grade to make the image look great, then go to export H.264 bluray, burn the disc and KABOOM!!!!   My timeline matches the big screen HDTV !!!!  (Cue more Trumpets)

Now I'm able to color grade and what I see on my screen, is what I'll see in the bluray.  And because it's all 2.2, it should play very well on computers.

 

...and yes, the big hdtv is color calibrated with Spears and Munsil hd benchmark.  Looks great, never an issue.

 

The clips I'm using are not HD video, they are standard digital video. The clips have always looked decent, until I tried to make the bluray using rec709 2.4 gamma and color management, then that's where the problems started.

 

In my experiements, I did find an unusual bug.  I was always curious as to why, when CM is turned on (in AE and PPro) the timeline would get darker, and when turned OFF, the timeline would get lighter.  It should look the same because my OS has only 1 icc profile as default, the rec709 2.4 (at the time).  PPro and AE use the default icc , if CM is turned on or off, so there shouldn't be a change on the timeline.

 

I got the weird notion, and of course, I could easily be wrong, but, it flows as if the color management in PPro / AE uses it's own internal icc profile when you turn CM on, and it is laying it over the OS icc already running.  Thats maybe why I was getting a darker timeline, and was grading on a darker timeline so when it went to bluray it was much brighter, because my view of the timeline was scewed by 2 icc profiles, one over the other.  I know that doesn't make much sense, but something weird is going on with CM and it should only be using the OS icc profile, and not some hidden Adobe internal profile.  But, I don't know a thing about that, I just know what I saw.   (when I say the OS icc, I mean the calibrated one by X-Rite)

 

When I removed CM in both programs, and only use the OS icc color profile calibrated to rec709 2.2 gamma 100nits, all is well in the world of Adobe.  I know what I'm doing isn't the best standard, but it sure does look good on the big hdtv screen, and that's all that matters for me.  Plus I didn't have to go out and buy a new $$$ reference monitor and computer card to color grade. Whew!

 

I'm so pleased I can finally control my work and see it on my computer monitor and see the results on the big hdtv screen.

(cue the strings, and run the credits)

 

Thank you again for all your help, and I hope this post helps somebody out there who has the same problem I had.

 

Best,

Letty

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Guide ,
Apr 15, 2021 Apr 15, 2021

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if you want to keep calibration at 2.4, you can use these "fix my bluray" luts in media encoder lut export dropdown.

rec 209 2.2 to 2.4 and 2.4 to 2.2 iridas 64 cube luts fix_my_bluray

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kGgGYXYUK6pqvLsw43GyTbRCQV2F9DlP/view?usp=sharing

 

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 15, 2021 Apr 15, 2021

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very cool, I will check it out! Thanks very much.

 

What is your recommended work flow using these?  My monitor is calibrated rec709 2.2 gamma.  I should change the gamma using the LUT 2.2 to 2.4 at the time of export to h.264 bluray?

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Guide ,
Apr 16, 2021 Apr 16, 2021

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from what I am thinking, calibrate to 2.4(you get to use cm). grade normally in premiere. in final last step, in adobe media encoder, add lut dropdown for 2.2 to 2.4 (burn-in) since 2.4 is only temporary in premiere and the blueray preset apparently doesn't do the authoring conversion for you. (just wait till we open the DCP thread!)

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 16, 2021 Apr 16, 2021

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I'm confused (as always)  If I'm in 2.2 in my PPro timeline, and color grading, and making the levels look great, can't I just export that out with h.264 and skip the whole export w/LUT step?

 

Is changing the gamma from 2.2 to 2.4 for export a requirement of the bluray process?  

 

I figure if I make it look great in 2.2 in PPro, it will just get darker if I use a lut that changes everthing to 2.4

 

I've ran some tests, and the clips look great in PPro w/2.2 monitor, and the export matches the timeline without adding a LUT.

 

???

 

Thanks, Letty

 

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 16, 2021 Apr 16, 2021

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OOohhhhh  I think I understand now what you are telling me.

 

Go back to my original work flow...

 

Calibrate monitor to rec709  2.4 gamma and turn ON Color Management everywhere.

Now I'm seeing the clips in the timeline thru the eyes of the 2.4 gamma.

Then, edit as normal, color grade, make it look good,

Then, use your LUT  (2.2 to 2.4) and that will make the export with h.264 bluray look great on the disc. 

 

That sounds even better because it takes the guess work out of changing the levels manually in PPro when I was editing at 2.2 monitor calibration.

 

Can't wait to test this out tonight.  I hope that magic lut works!

Thank you again, I will follow up.

Letty

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