Is there a multi-authoring solution with RH Server apart from RH client?

[stevenjs]

Greetings:

Is Adobe looking to price itself out of the HAT market?

Just got the pricing on RH Server 8 ($2000) and then another $1000 per RH 8 client (as I write this I am still verifying the pricing, because they first told me each user will need a full RH Server 8 license, meaning $10K for 5 authors). For five authors, that's $7000 (unless its $10,000 ;-), and about 99% overkill on the multi-authoring side, since we only need one RH 8 client for management and publishing, and a simple WYSIWYG for additional authors is all that is needed, and indeed the learning curve for RH versus a WYSIWYG makes this paying a lot of money for a huge training burden & support headache. Is this for real?

I'm researching HAT's and I've got the same or better featured server/multi-author scenario going with HelpServer for $4000 (unlimited additional authors), Doc-To-Help Enterprise for a mere $1500 (also unlimited authors), and Flare complete with Feedback Server and 5 X-Edit author/users for less than $3500, not including support packages. Considering the fact that there is virtually nothing RH does the others don't, and quite a bit the others do that RH does not, I have to wonder -- why is there no simple to learn, inexpensive to buy WYSIWYG (something like Contribute) for multi-authoring in RH Server?

Since it's all HTML, we could in fact go with Contribute, but direct changes would not be reflected back in the RH client files. That's about the only thing that would have to be automated beyond a Contribute-like WYSIWYG, or what am I missing?

Just occurred to me, could have Contribute users make changes to RH shared directory, then they could be published from there. Hmmmn.

Anyone have a workaround or other solution here?

Shame, shame, Adobe.

regards,

Steven

___________________________

"I am but an egg."

--Stranger in a Strange Land

[Captiv8r]

Hi Steven

Dems the breaks I suppose. One way past it would be to have one RoboHelp Server license and one RoboHelp Office license. Then have the other authors simply use Microsoft Word to maintain their content. The person that uses the RoboHelp Office (Client part) could then import and link the Word documents managed by the other authors. If you worked that way you would only be looking at a total outlay of $3,000 instead of $7,000. But I suspect that you might get a better deal than $7,000 if you worked with Sales.

Keep in mind that RoboHelp Server relies upon the content created by RoboHelp. There is no "limited WYSIWYG editor". All it does is provide reporting as well as project merging. There is nothing about it that lends itself to a simple WYSIWYG editor that provides a window into the server content.

I cannot speak to the other tools you cited. Maybe they do work in that manner and maybe they don't. And maybe you are misunderstanding the actual capabilities. I cannot say.

Additionally, it's helpful to keep in mind that the way RoboHelp works today was initially designed and maintained by the folks now known as MadCap. Because of that, I'd be surprised to find that the MadCap products operate in a totally different manner. Maybe they do. Adobe acquired the product by virtue of acquiring macromedia. So they didn't design the way it works. Although they have enhanced it. I see no reason to shame Adobe.

Can you expound on your claim that " there is virtually nothing RH does the others don't, and quite a bit  the others do that RH does not". What ios the "quite a bit" that others are doing that RoboHelp isn't? RoboHelp seems fairly competitive with its feature set to me.

Cheers... Rick

Helpful and Handy Links RoboHelp Wish Form/Bug Reporting Form Begin learning RoboHelp HTML 7 or 8 within the day - $24.95! Adobe Certified RoboHelp HTML Training SorcerStone Blog RoboHelp eBooks

[stevenjs]

Well, Rick, spoken like an Adobe employee. The pricing is shameful, and I did talk to sales. First they didn't know what they were talking about and told me I needed five RH Server licenses @ $10K, then a second time told me 5 RH licenses and 1 RH Server for $7K, no discount, does not even count as "quantity." If your livelihood depends on RH, I'd start looking at some alternative, because with that pricing it is going the way of the dinosaur.

As for what it's competion does or does not do, I'd be happy to share my research with Adobe, for say $7-10 grand. 😉 Otherwise, do your own diligence. I may be but an egg, but I know my HAT features. Flare for instance, has just such an integrated WYSIWYG, not as cheap as Contribute, but a far cry from RH full. That Madcap folks come from RH dev is a great recommendation, nothing less. Certainly, they have RH in their crosshairs now 😉

All in all the interaction with Adobe -- to get a price from them no less !!! - was  amateurish, technically reprehensible, insulting, and incompetent. I've been better abused calling Mircosoft.

[RoboColum_n_]

As someone whose team has had to shell out nearly 10k GBP on Technical Communication Suite and RH Server licences this time last year I can sympathise with the cost - especially as UK resellers are more expensive than those stateside. However looking at the bottom line is only part of the story.

I don't want to get into a "product A does this and product b doesn't" debate. All I'd say is that if you look at other HATs on offer you may well get one that is cheaper. The question is, does it fulfil your criteria? If it does, great. Go for it. Personally I've found the functionality in some HATs way behind that of RoboHelp's. That said, there are many ways to skin a cat.

Finally as a user (not an employee) of RoboHelp - as indeed is Rick - I know only too well the problems faced by everyday users. Rick knows these better than me through his Community Expert status but this does not make him an Adobe corporate

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[stevenjs]

Thanks Colum, I get that. But have a look for yourself at features in HelpServer in Belgium in particular, as well as Flare.

Also, I said "like" an employee. As an RH user myself, I am concerned about my own livelihood with RH going the way of the dinosaur.

Finally, some day somebody will wake up, as I did recently, and realize that open source WordPress server has all the makings of an HAT that has the potential to blow all of the multi-thousand dollar server HATs right out of the water.

If I were an entrepreneur with financing that's where I'd be right now. As it is, we may end up trying to muscle WordPress in place and stead of any HAT.

😉

[johndaigle]

Just like Rick, I am an instructor, *not* an Adobe employee. Obviously I  am a proud advocate of RoboHelp and therefore biased.

Dinosaur??? Since  Adobe took over RoboHelp from Macromedia in February of 2006, there have  been 3 major versions released in three years. That's an incredible  demonstration of support for a product that was completely neglected by  its predecessor. In addition they have integrated best-of-breed tools  like FrameMaker, Captivate, Acrobat and PhotoShop as the Adobe Technical  Communication Suite which many authors find to be a great combination. I'd say that's a pretty good track record.

I went to both websites and found this for a price comparison:

Adobe RoboHelp v8 (authoring client) - $999
Flare v6 (authoring client) - $999 (Electronic download)

Adobe RoboHelp Server 8 - $1,999
Flare Feedback Server 2 - $2,499 - Special offer: $1,799

So, feature sets aside, it would seem there is price parity between the  two products. From what you describe, it appears you would only need one  RoboHelp Server license. During the past 6 weeks, I have helped four large clients with installation of RoboHelp Server 8. They particularly like the unique feature of RH Server 8 that enables them to setup multiple websites and "Areas" that can be  designated for audiences within an organization, or even restrict access  for content that you want to require authentication - all with only one  license. Also some IT departments prefer not to work with MS IIS.   Madcap Feedback Server requires MS IIS and the .NET Framework while Adobe RoboHelp Server 8  offers a choice; with or without IIS.

Another big difference is that RoboHelp includes a free RoboSource  Control application for content management and version tracking, which  Flare does not.

Feature comparisons are always dangerous because of the "apples to  apples" syndrome. That said, you can make a high-level comparison of  features side by side here http://hat-matrix.com/compare_hats/

I respect your comments about a constantly changing landscape (Wordpress, etc.) Adobe is already addressing Web 2.0 technologies with things like AIR Help and the easy way you can generate your content for the new ePub format for mobile devices.

Authors have different working styles, experience levels and many  requirements that might favor one tool over another. Everyone is free to  download the trials, compare against their needs and make a decision. I hope you'll stay with us. It'll be a great ride.

John Daigle
Adobe Certified RoboHelp and Captivate Instructor
Evergreen, Colorado
http://www.showmethedemo.com

[stevenjs]

Oh, these change-next-to-nothing releases from year to year are not going to save RH from price extinction. And customer service? Forget it. Flare offered me a Flare license and five X-Edit licenses for total $1500. True, their server thing is priced like the RH server thing. That's $3500 vs. $7000 total. And of course, there my be that one little feature in RH that is worth $3500 to somebody or other, but I doubt it will help RH survive.

The source control and server type observations are miniscule. You can buy an awful lot of toys with $3500, and then there is freeware. I have been using that comparison tool (http://hat-matrix.com/compare_hats/) -- excellent effort there by the way -- and from that alone I could rest my case, but add in pricing factors, and RH is on death row.

I must say from my recent experience, I'd have to conclude Adobe itself is a brontosaurus oblivious to its setting sun 😉

Yes, indeed there's no substitute for the hands on trial. Right now I am trying out WordPress. If I can get that to behave like a HAT, I'll ask for a $10K raise 😉

[Captiv8r]

Hi Steven

I notice you say "XEdit licenses" and not "Flare" licenses. So it would appear you are comparing Spiders with Hedgehogs. I see the Flare XEdit application is $249 per seat. Adobe offers Contribute at $199 with a five pack available for $799. You could accomplish things using Contribute and my colleague Peter Grainge has information on his site about doing just that. Click here to view

So if you are that unhappy with RoboHelp, just vote with your pocketbook and switch!

Why grouse about it here? What good is it serving for the community of RoboHelp users we are attempting to assist? If your beef is with Adobe, you need to make them aware of it via the channel they listen to. The Wish Form/Bug Reporting form.

Adobe only occasionally tune into this particular channel and leave it to us users to help one another out.

Just sayin... Rick

Helpful and Handy Links RoboHelp Wish Form/Bug Reporting Form Begin learning RoboHelp HTML 7 or 8 within the day - $24.95! Adobe Certified RoboHelp HTML Training SorcerStone Blog RoboHelp eBooks

[stevenjs]

Ah, the forum cop thing, grousing about grousing -- get a life. I'll just bite my tongue, and let you imagine what I'd really like to say about that.

As for comparisons, duh, let's have a little integrity, the point is you aren't forced to buy $1000 Flare when all you need is $250 X-Edit. Use of Contribute was my idea (made in the original post right here ;-), born of desperation to save RH from itself (as well as Adobe), and apparently someone else suggested it to Peter Grainge as well, but this is NOT Adobe's idea, nor is it supported by them, nor is Contribute designed for integration with RH. It's a novel workaround for RH failure, and a clumsy one at best.

As for Wish Form/Bug Reporting form --  Before yesterday, I would not give them my ideas without charging them. After their abuse yesterday, I wouldn't give Adobe the time of day without charging them. Reliance on user donations alone shows they are not serious about improving anything.

[Captiv8r]

Hello again

Biting one's tongue is important if what would be said would not be constructive.

I'm unfamiliar with Flare and how it works, but I'd be utterly shocked to discover that all you need is a light package to author and you could get away with only X-Edit and the server bit. The MadCap X-Edit page seems to imply that at least one full copy of Flare or Blaze would need to be purchased to work in concert with it.

For MadCap Flare and Blaze Authors:

• Create X-Edit templates in Flare or Blaze for subject matter  experts and contributors
• Maintain project text styles, table styles, conditions,  variables, and images
• Prevent potential loss of content by locking text, such as  headings

For Subject Matter Experts and Managers:

• Add content to Flare or Blaze projects using X-Edit
• Edit and review existing content using X-Edit Review
• Submit content directly into projects without technical  writing knowledge or experience

So it would seem that at least one full Flare or Blaze license would be needed in order to create the X-Edit template that would be used, no?

If use of contribute was your idea, why were Peter's pages created long ago? Or maybe you gave him the idea when he created them?

Sorry if you feel Adobe abused you in some way. But it is what it is and if that's your perception there isn't much likelihood of your changing it based on anything I'd say. As I said, we are only here to assist others needing help with RoboHelp. RoboHelp is a complex application. But it's easy and dare I say (Fun) to use and that's why it's popular. I know that John and I began using it about the same time. Back in 1992 when it was a Word add in. Admittedly, It's not perfect (show me software that is) but we do enjoy using it.

The fact is, you are seeing a need that Adobe hasn't apparently seen or thought about. By that, I mean some "light" client to allow SMEs to contribute output. However, on the flip side RoboHelp 8 was created with an ability to link to Word Documents that  others maintain. So you can actually have a setup where others create  content with no additional cost whatsoever, as long as they have  Microsoft Word available. That seems a reasonable approach to me if you  are seeking a way to allow others to freely contribute content. And that  ability was created by Adobe. It wasn't an afterthought cooked up by  Peter or John or me.

Adobe does tend to listen to users. And they are a huge company. Unfortunately that bit is revealed by an apparent disconnect between the assorted departments. (Sales, Support, Etc) I'm not convinced that they aren't serious about making improvements. But that's just me.

Your opinion is different and I'm not here to proselytize. Only to assist if I can.

Cheers... Rick

[RoboColum_n_]

I do a lot of voluntary work in my spare time for an international NGO and this thread reminds me of an experience I once had. I was faced by a member of the public with some pretty strong views and who was forthright in communicating them. We agreed on most things but disagreed on one relatively minute policy detail. It turned out that he was more sympathethic to a rival NGO. After 15 minutes of a very interesting discussion I knew we'd never agree 100%. I also realised that actually it didn't matter if we disagreed and what is more that we were both coming at things from the same direction. Both NGOs had the same overall aim, just a slightly different slant on how to get there.

QED! If you don't want to use RH, don't. Just don't expect us all to see things your way. We may use different tools but we have the same overall aim.

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[johndaigle]

As John Hodgman says, "You're welcome."