We Have to Wait ANOTHER YEAR for Our New Mac Pro?!!!

Advocate ,
Apr 23, 2018

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Yes. Earlier this month Tom Boger, senior director of Mac Hardware Product Marketing, told Tech Crunch, “We want to be transparent and communicate openly with our pro community, so we want them to know that the Mac Pro is a 2019 product. It’s not something for this year.”

What’s the important part of that statement?

When Tom says, “pro community” he’s not only being transparent about the release time frame, what he’s also saying is, “Are you part of that pro community even if you qualify as a ‘pro’?” There are a limited number of professionals who need that kind of Olympic weight lifting technology muscle.

The top tier Apple and HP laptops are not able to host the RAM needs of many professionals because of RAM limit specification of Intel’s microprocessor. So, those current laptop issues open the door for important desktop computing alternatives. But, at some point Intel will solve the laptop RAM issue. It’s worth mentioning that the microprocessors which go into laptop computers, are traditionally not the same as than those brains which go into desktop computers.

How much technology weight do we need to be pressing over our Macs’ heads to need this kind of power? Here are a few examples of when our MacBook Pros say. “OUCH!”:

Adobe Illustrator: Some AutoCAD users send us huge vector art files. They usually work okay. But, there are times when the projects are so massive that it takes a very long time to scroll around them.

There are some very cool things that we love to do in painting with Illustrator. Once those projects become extremely complex (and we love to make them complex) it’s difficult to paint in realtime. When that happens, we have to stop working.

Adobe Premier Pro: For the most part, non-linear editing (NLE) is not demanding on a fully loaded MacBook Pro. However, we create many graphics which assist people in the learning process. As we build layer upon layer upon layer, the motion graphics cause long projects to lag. Moving up and down or back and forth through a big timeline hurts. Premier Pro’s monitor panels can become slow to respond, as well.

Adobe Photoshop: Oh… where to begin. We go back to Painter 1.0 and our work in pixel art and compositing became something of a signature for us. When Adobe added a paint engine to Photoshop, we could begin to do what we could not accomplish in Painter. However the more layers we add and the great complexity we bring to the table, the more we create a realtime painting issue, similar to what happens in Illustrator. We compound that problem with 3D.

That’s not the whole of it. Animating with Adobe After Effects and Adobe Animate has its own set of pain points.

Why wait? Why don’t we just buy the current Mac Pro? Have you priced a fully loaded one of those things? There are cars which cost less!

We do not know specifically what Apple is waiting for, with the new Mac Pro, but we can see that new big tower development appears to be on hold at HP, as well. So, that tells us its probably all Intel driven.

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Advocate ,
Apr 24, 2018

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Guide ,
Apr 24, 2018

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Saw an article a month or so ago that Apple was going to ditch Intel to move back to their own CPUs.
PPC redux?
I think it was for 2020, so I guess not in time for this 2019 version, but if the switch is just a year later, would seem silly given Intel's memory limitations to purchase a 2019 Mac Pro at all and just wait for the super version in 2020...

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Advocate ,
Apr 24, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Erik+Lord  wrote

Saw an article a month or so ago that Apple was going to ditch Intel to move back to their own CPUs.

There have been a fair number of rumors about Apple doing their own Microprocessor but it seem to become a bit more legitimate once Bloomberg and Forbes reported on the fact that there are such rumors out there. Normally when those companies report on rumors they have some intel which says it's potentially legit.

The interesting aspect of Apple leaving Intel is that we tend to think of Apple and HP as monster consumers of Intel products. However, even together, they're not a monster chuck of Intel's revenue stream.

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Advocate ,
Apr 24, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Erik+Lord  wrote

Saw an article a month or so ago that Apple was going to ditch Intel to move back to their own CPUs.
PPC redux?

It does read like a return to the Mac's PowerPC days doesn't it?

If I were an Apple exec I'd say, "Guys, we've traveled this road before and it didn't take us to a good place."

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Advocate ,
Apr 24, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Erik+Lord  wrote

I think it was for 2020, so I guess not in time for this 2019 version, but if the switch is just a year later, would seem silly given Intel's memory limitations to purchase a 2019 Mac Pro at all and just wait for the super version in 2020...

The other part which seems silly to me is Apple potentially needing to rewrite chunks of macOS to address a different microprocessor.

That doesn't make sense to me. The upside would need to be dramatic to make it worth their while.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 24, 2018

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Boy, would this set a lot of Mac users back a hundred years or thousands of $$$$!

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Advocate ,
Apr 25, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Kat+Gilbert  wrote

Boy, would this set a lot of Mac users back a hundred years or thousands of $$$$!

You bring up an interesting point, Kat. If Apple were building their own microprocessors rather than buying them from Intel, would that drive the price downward for the end user?

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Apr 25, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Kat+Gilbert  wrote

Boy, would this set a lot of Mac users back a hundred years or thousands of $$$$!

yes

the only way it competes against Intel is to make something that at least "keeps up" and that means massive R&D on a product with no estabished name behind it... ask AMD how much effort that takes and why people love them so much when they finally get it right

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Guide ,
Apr 24, 2018

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I'm not a core programmer but the rewrite wouldn't be required, if the new chip is still x86, right? Assuming that's the architecture Intel's CPUs are still using... I've no idea on variations or flexibility of architectures, so don't know if Apple (or whomever) could create a chip that retains architecture compatibility but go beyond what Intel has been able to do (or do wrongly).

They've been through the rewrite process before, and it worked, so they have a roadmap. A new rosetta layer over the current x86 codebase while they rewrite for a new CPU design...and ya know, a solid OS rewrite every so often is a really good idea.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 25, 2018

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ya know, a solid OS rewrite every so often is a really good idea...

Well the debacle that they've landed with that is High Sierra one wonders if they've got the talent and skill

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Advocate ,
Apr 25, 2018

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cmgap  wrote

ya know, a solid OS rewrite every so often is a really good idea...

Well the debacle that they've landed with that is High Sierra one wonders if they've got the talent and skill

The pain points of a major OS rewrite are usually on the shoulders of other developers like Adobe, Autodesk, Microsoft, and even Apple internally.

Remember Apple's push to 64 bit apps? It took them forever to get their own apps there and Final Cut Pro's feature sets never fully evolved.

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Advocate ,
Apr 25, 2018

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One of the things Tim Cook does well as Apple's CEO is weigh the financials.

He promotes the investment in innovative development, but he knows when to change direction.

If (and it's still an "if") Apple is moving forward with their own microprocessor family, it's surely something with major muscle. Maybe there are other partners in such a venture (like HP) which are also held back by Intel's delays.

Apple and HP have to be the key drivers for Intel's high end demand.

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Advocate ,
Apr 25, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Erik+Lord  wrote

I'm not a core programmer but the rewrite wouldn't be required, if the new chip is still x86, right?

Doesn't Intel have a patent on their architecture? I'm not sure how it works when AMD makes x86 microprocessors. Do they license that from Intel?

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Guide ,
Apr 25, 2018

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AMD has a long term x86 license from Intel. I don't know the details though. I think 64bit instructions on x86 are an AMD thing though, so there's probably cross-licensing involved...?

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Advocate ,
Apr 25, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Erik+Lord  wrote

AMD has a long term x86 license from Intel. I don't know the details though. I think 64bit instructions on x86 are an AMD thing though, so there's probably cross-licensing involved...?

Thank you for that Erik. Janet & I tried to do some quick research on how that works and could not find solid answers.

We don't know why such an arrangement with AMD makes sense for Intel.

For the kind of things Janet & I do with Windows, we only see HP computers, which probably gives us a very one-sided view of things. So, we only know of AMD microprocessors in the entry level side of things, so we have no contact with that stuff.

But that kind of gets back to the discussion of Apple making its own microprocessors for pro-level Macs.

There was an interesting (sort of humorous) article I saw on the number of A9 processors needed to equal a Mac Pro 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache or a HP Z 8 Workstation with 44 cores. It was one of those things where there was a football field-sized analogies.

That said, would Intel license Apple to take their top tier technology and create something which would out perform anything Intel could make?

There some thinking that it wouldn't harm Intel financially but it would kill their street-cred.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 25, 2018

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"Apple vs. HP" is the Apple way of thinking.The off-the-shelf pre-packaged product, all wrapped up. You're not even supposed to know what's inside, you just hand it over to the guys in white lab coats if something doesn't work.

Most high-end Windows users build their own systems to their own particular needs. It's not about money, it's about getting a machine to your precise specs. Components are so well specified to work together today, that anyone can do it with a little research and care.

95% of all problems people have in the Photoshop forum can be traced back to the video card, and drivers optimized for games. This seems to hit both platforms equally (although updating the driver or rolling back is a lot easier on Windows).

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Advocate ,
Apr 26, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

"Apple vs. HP" is the Apple way of thinking.The off-the-shelf pre-packaged product, all wrapped up. You're not even supposed to know what's inside, you just hand it over to the guys in white lab coats if something doesn't work.

For the sake of forums like these, we have to keep in mind that a big chuck of Adobe's subscriber base is enterprise users. This includes big corporations (along with big media companies), educational institutions, governments, non-profits, etc, etc.) Their IT people want their users to have something very specific. For many of them, the focus is Apple and HP. Sometimes they are franchise operators where Apple and/or HP is all they are allowed to have.

Then there are the enterprise users who buy whatever is the most dirt cheap, minimally specced Dell or Lenovo thing they can find.

(We need to make more money so we can hire a white lab coat guy!!!!)

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 27, 2018

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Brian you seem to be picking information out of the air to suit your argument.  You started getting weird when you narrowed the PC side of the Apple vs Windows options to HP, and you are now trying to support that with your enterprise user base argument.   It's a non sequitur if ever I heard one.

One of the strengths of a Windows system is the flexibility it offers when choosing the hardware.  You can tailor a system to best match the work you will be doing.  That does not mean every user has a unique Frankenstein monster of a system.  Power users, like television studios, design centres, and science laboratories, use companies like Puget Systems who go to extreme lengths to best match hardware to end use, and build systems that best serve their clients.   

Looking though Puget Systems long list of ongoing testing, we see software ranging from Adobe applications, DaVinci Resolve, Solidworks, Pix4D, Cinema 4D, V-Ray, Octane Render, various Autodesk titles, and on and  on.  Those articles are a godsend for serious system builders, but it  is not just Puget Systems that provides this sort of high end hardware.  Film and television have companies like ADK and Videoguys, and I am sure there will be other companies that specialise in CAD, CAE, etc. systems.

As I never tire of saying, the highest placed Mac in Harm and Bill's PPBM5 results table  was way down in the 661st place out of 1351 entries.  It was too much work to keep updating the results table, so there is no table for Premiere Pro CS6 and CC, but if you spend some time on the Premiere Pro Hardware forum, you won't see many Mac systems being discussed.

Benchmark Results

Do you have any idea at all of the likely spec of the next Mac Pro, and its likely cost?   If not, what is the spec and cost of the current Mac Pro.  Argument and opinion is not a substitute for hard data.  The numbers don't lie. 

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Advocate ,
Apr 27, 2018

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Trevor.Dennis  wrote

Brian you seem to be picking information out of the air to suit your argument.

I have no argument to make against the use of custom towers. It's a viable option which fits the needs of specific users.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 27, 2018

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I have no argument to make against the use of custom towers. It's a viable option which fits the needs of specific users.

Actually not "specific" users, but high-end users in general. That's just the way they all do it nowadays.

And this is such an effective strategy that the MacPro's main problem today, is that there's no longer any real market for it. Unless they adopt the same strategy - which of course goes against everything Apple has ever stood for. The MacPro painted itself into a corner.

The iMac will still have its loyal user base, and it's a fine machine at what it does. But that's as high up as the "Apple way" will take you before you need to start custom building.

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Advocate ,
Apr 27, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse  wrote

Actually not "specific" users, but high-end users in general. That's just the way they all do it nowadays.

I was thinking about some of the suppliers who are solutions providers for specific needs. By way of example, there was a time when broadcast was adapting to digital storage. As that grew the NAB shows sold massive exhibit floor space to companies which customized solutions based upon some core storage concepts and did things on a MTO (made to order) basis.

Those kind of markets are not driven by the latest and greatest from Apple/HP.

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Engaged ,
Apr 24, 2018

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So, what are all you Apple heads gonna do while your waiting for the orchard to decide what it's going to do. The whole report reads like "One Big Cluster Freak" happening. Eurika! I've got it; why not we all switch over to the evil empire!

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Advocate ,
Apr 25, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Cactus+Cowboy  wrote

I've got it; why not we all switch over to the evil empire!

You speak of Windows 10?

I kind of like that OS but I know it would require me to invest a ton of time to have expertise with it.

However, if I bought a HP tower, it has the same microprocessor as the Mac Pro, so what have I gained?

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Engaged ,
Apr 25, 2018

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From all that I've read, You'd gain a big savings over remaining with Apple in money alone. Is it not the main argument that Apple is not providing a system with chipsets that allow a monsterous size memory advantage to be able to run demanding apps and projects, and that this new deal that they are putting together is going to do just that...supposedly at an enormous cost for such a system.

You could probably build a laptop or desktop to your specs right now for half of what an Apple's new system deal will costs and run as much memory as you can afford and whatever OS you need or even dual operating systems. An aftermarket custom rig is by far the way to go. Why HP, why Apple, why Dell hell, why Window's...why not you pick al-la-carte what you want or need in a wishlist shopping cart fashion and that way you know exactly what you have to compare with. A lot people of have been doing this all ready. Apple is still to damn proprietary with everything. You would have thought that with the death of Jobs that would have been the first thing they would have changed. It would have been for the better of it customers.

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