I would not equate all young folks to that view either. My daughter is 30 and is still trying to figure out what all the teenagers see in text messaging. I guess it was not there when she was a teen and that may be the issue, the new whiz kids as you put it where there. I don't know how to classify John (his avatar does not look like a youngster at this point. ... View more

I had looked for some topics that were the same and could not find any (well, I did not waste a lot of time on it). Do you have one of the topics that can be found in both the old and new formats? ... View more

It would be interesting if a few forums (if not already done) where ported over to the test site. I wonder how long it would have taken my to scan this topic in the new format. It was a matter of simply turning the thumbwheel here with an easy read. My finger would probably be tired on the new layout (have to use page down). So far my experience in the new forum setup is that I have to wait for everything. I thought that the Adobe forums were slow at times, but the new forums crawl by comparison. The editing on my machine is even slow. It takes extra time for the cursor to move. I wonder if the software requires a lot more memory and that is an issue or what? Too bad my Win 98 machine is not up so I could try it there. ... View more

To me the things to fix would be the speed issue and second to include options so that those of us that don't want all the waste can get rid of things in the display. That means more preferences than simply 2 layout formats (flat and threaded). What is wrong with an additional layout like we have here as an option. Of course, the software may be the limitation here - to bad. At this point, my experience in the new forums have been one of wait, wait, wait. It is much slower than this forum. The page load takes about 15 seconds. Many of the page loads are taking this long. That is getting a bit long to wait when browsing. I have not quite figured out the thread format. Also, the topics are listed in terms of the last one to be accessed, rather than a flag to show I have been there. I might get used to this, but I like the little flags. ... View more

I followed Claudio's path and was able to login using the Account button on SeaMonkey. The login button at the top of the forum list does not work in SeaMonkey. I found it did work in IE and FireFox 3.01. ... View more

After looking at the new forum test, I can agree that at this point speed is the major issue. It is SLOW! I have given up for now just because of the slow speed. Even the editing and such is slow. The edit page takes about 14 seconds to load. Going to another discussion, or just back to the past discussion using the BACK button takes a lot of time. Probably a minimum of 5 seconds, probably more. The new forums are not a good reason for me to hang around, I have other things to do with the wasted time (unless I could figure out how to work as I wait, but time management was never my thing!). ... View more

In John's examples, the main problem I see is the space use when including avatars and extra stuff about a poster. For me, the first example had a 1 line post that took 10 lines because of the stuff on the left and in other cases there was a lot of blank space under the avatar as Bob mentioned. Dorothy has a reasonable argument also. The simplest way to resolve this issue (if the software permits it) is to allow the user to select in the preferences what they prefer to have viewed. It might actually be interesting to have a choice and folks be able to tailer the presentation to their one liking. Some sites allow threaded versus other views, it would be nice to be able to add the avatar issue to the preferences. Then we would have no need to keep "yelling" about it here. Hopefully the test site will be available soon so we can all look at it. Maybe it will have selections, let's wait and see. Yes, I have my doubts, but I have also said my bit and figure I just need to wait to see. I am hearing a lot of broken records (OK, I guess this has become an age thing, I still have lots of LPs). ... View more

I may be old and opinionated, but all the new fangled forums that we keep being referred to are pretty and that is it in my opinion. They may have better search functions, but the readability is poor. There is just too much waste on the screen to scan through and get a quick view of what is there. I often want to browse, but do not have time to read it all (nor do I want to). I did find the NNTP option to be interesting and I might actually find that I like it, but that is to be gone with the new forums (based on comments from MacroMedia users who seem to prefer the NNTP form to the actual forum structure that many have said is poor). Thus, are the majority looking for fluff - are they really trying to retrieve any kind of information or just enjoy pretty pages? It is just like the folks that insist on putting graphics and such in their e-mail and that I filter out - no information content. That means that for ease of information flow, simple is often the most efficient. Sometimes a picture is a valued way to pass information and enabling some added features light pictures (without having to find web storage) would be nice. Said my bit for a while. Have a good weekend folks! ... View more

I finally gave up and went to look at the NNTP format for Dreamweaver (just a sample). It was kind of interesting. I do not know much about newsreaders, but it looks like a useful format. It is interesting when we hear from MacroMedia forum users that say they use the NNTP format. I can now see what they are talking about. The form is simple and fast to go through. It would take me a while to get used to, but I think it would work fine for my needs. I guess that a lot of you are having that heartburn with NNTP being dropped and I can see why. Hopefully the new interface retains a lot of the simplicity that folks have requested, but experience from the past suggests we should not expect such a simple form. Thanks for the comment. ... View more

That link to message 13 was very interesting. It is interesting that the changes not only started on the 13th, but the detailed list of items was message #13. I hope John's desire for 13 to be lucky holds up. He mentioned that he did not like avatars at first, but they are growing on him a bit. His comments at least gave a neat view of the forum desires from his perspective. Thanks for the link. ... View more

On the 85k, I was just commenting on what Phil reported. I realize that is large for most avatars, but feeding back what he reported. Even at 250kB, that is a lot of waste for me. I am just asking the option to turn off downloads of avatars (leave them for the folks that want them). That way we are all happy. Many of the forums, that have been pointed to, have various display options, including threads. Thus the question comes up of what is the big deal about providing an option that displays in the current Adobe forum style, as well as all of the other styles. If the display options were provided, then all of the arguments about avatars, labels on folks, history of folks, etc, would be unnecessary. My question: Are such display options being considered? If so, then maybe we can turn to more useful comments. I do not know much about the NNTP form getting information, but it sure sounds like such a format should be considered in the design of the forums - even if I might not use it. ... View more

If you read some of John's comments about the last time around, it is clear he felt he was fighting a brick wall. A lot of what he was trying to do would probably have been a success, but he was battling the powers that be that wanted something different. At least that is my take on what he mentioned. He has tried to be informative, posting a sample screen shot of a page as it might look. That example is the basis for many of the concerns over space and such. Giving the option for setting the display to allow avatars or not, a simply format as here or a fancy layout, and many other display options. They would be simple to set in the preferences as are threaded messages and such in the sample forums that have been pointed to. There might be more constructive input (less ranting) if a sample forum with the new style and options was setup, rather than everyone guessing based on past history and the tidbits that have come out. Adobe might actually find some useful suggestions in such a case. ... View more

Whoa! 85k is not a large image, but I have the forums set to display 50 topics and messages. With 85k per avatar, that would be a download of 4.25MB. On my old 56k modem that would have been 15 mins just to see the avatars and no useful content. I consider that to be a lot of extra wasted download time and waste of bandwidth. If I have an option to turn off avatars as I have suggested, then I have no problem for those that want them. A lot of the arguments are coming down to preferences and I have already expressed mine. However, the best approach to the problem is to provide display options for some of the viewing. Why not allow a page to be viewed without the left and right columns and in the current format if that is desired (by others like myself), and with all of the pictures and extra download time and space for those that like that format. Actually, setting up a sample forum with the new structure is a great idea. We could look and comment (hopefully constructively). It really does not matter who would design the page layout, some will be happy and others will be disgusted. Options provide the simplest solution to it all, though some extra programming. In the meantime, I recognize what has been said about the need to move to new software due to problems that are arising on the Adobe forums. I have not noticed a lot of problems, but understand there are some that make it difficult to maintain. I thank John and others who have tried to keep us informed. ... View more

To print the data select document & markup in the print box. ... View more

A lot of the point on titles, avatars, and other items can easily be handled by preferences if the software has such options (would be nice). The concern is that the preferences will not provide such options and the forums will look just like the last time they made the change - ugly and time consuming. If options for different layouts are available in many of these forums, including reply buttons and threaded messages, it is surprising that all of the other requests can not be made into preferences. That way everyone is happy with the layout and look they like. Speed may be a different issue if a lot of preferences are available. However, avatars and other items will slow down the forum at least some, though possibly only a little. For folks like me, I don't want to see avatars and a lot of the other stuff that wastes space. Give me the options and I am happy. ... View more

The load time is bad enough on DSL, particularly with the state of the forums that John is trying to fix (we hope). I can only imaging if I was still on my 56k modem (and a few still are!). ... View more

Based on the last time the change was made, do not expect a test forum. Expect to check in one night (or day) and get surprised (pleasantly or with irritation). That is why I had asked John to post a view or link to a sample of the look. That look started the round again, since it had all the wasted space folks discussed. A few want fancy forums (I don't remember such comments from any regulars). If at all possible, setting up options so that folks can turn off things would be the best option. In fact, if two different layout options (this one and a fancy one) were available, a lot of the complaints would go away. All of the preliminary views have been with avatars and all. I have already voiced my opinion and am waiting for a test forum as others have requested. Even test forums on the MM side have been requested since it seems that might reduce the flack based on the current expected view. A test site would be a great idea. In fact this forum could even go there as a test! ... View more

As was mentioned, setting a character width is not that great in a web design form, but rather use % of width. The point I have been trying to make in these forums is that I like as it is, but would find a preference setting to leave it alone or add in avatars as desired should be an easy aspect to add (unless you are getting locked into something because of a stupid piece of software). ... View more

DorothyK, you may have to change the screen resolution. On the LCD display I am running here at 1280 X 1040, the view only takes about 5/8ths of the screen width. It just about fills my notebook at 1040 X 768. On my 24" desktop monitor at work, the forum only takes about 1/2 the screen. Thus it appears to be a fixed width display. For a fixed with, changing the resolution will do the job. In fact, looking at the source the width seems to be that of a table at "width=680". That is consistent with the screen resolution I have on this system. It may be that making the width floating may not be that easy (depends on the software that generates the forum - one of the issues of changing!). ... View more

I suggested the preference option about a week ago. Turning off avatars and signatures (and allowing the column to shrink to 0 as a result) would satisfy me and leave them as an option for those that love those things. If I have to deal with all the wasted space, I will likely quit visiting the forums. I just don't have the time to waste scanning things that have always been visible in one screen, but are headed to 2 or 3 screens because of the space waste. ... View more

In #95 I simply tried to summarize the basic points that have been the center of our debates. The screen shot John posted provided a good view that many have said we do not want. I would guess that many of those that want to keep the current look are the long time users that find it efficient for scanning and helping others. Those that seem to want a new form I might guess are not as regular. I would agree that the current format is probably not the reason for decline, but the aspect of need for information and such. It might even be that the Adobe link is not as obvious to new users as it used to be. Waiting for it to get up and running is saying we should wait until the the posting just like the last fiasco. If we have major concerns, they should be fed into the system now (my opinion). If the new look becomes the norm, I will likely reduce my checking substantially. I look for efficiency, particularly since I primarily spend my time trying to help others. I do find useful info from others, but not to the extent that I try to help. Scanning for problems I see a very inefficient in the proposed format. If it is at all possible, I recommend the format be a preference option. I like the current look and would use it immediately. Others have the other issues that I listed in #95. If we had some preference options, then the arguments about the proper format would go away. ... View more

Thank you John. However, it looks like the post confirms the fears of many of us. I understand the need to update the software due to load and such, but the look and related space issues has come out as a negative from all the posts since you put in the link. A lot of these issues were major items with the last revision a year or two ago, that was taken off. I guess the other two issues that others have discussed are the log in issue and the search. I have not had problems with those, but it seems to summarize the concerns of many to list them as 1. wasted space 2. log in issues (being worked on I guess) 3. search issues I don't remember of many other comments off hand that are not part of one of these. If the selection of borders and avatars (i.e., the layout) was a preference, then many of us would select a layout like this topic has. I am sure there are others that will select the space wasting layout also because they have large monitors, good eyes, or lots of time - but if it is at all possible to make it a preference, both camps would be happy. (maybe?) ... View more

John, Maybe a post of what the look might be would either stop a lot of the chatter, or get you early feedback from folks before another fiasco like the last one. Folks are running scared due to the change history and are just projecting what they think might be coming, particularly based on some of the comments going around. Giving a preview of the look (or look options) might resolve some of the issues. There is a lot to be said of Fear of the Unknown. In this case we know it is coming, the fear is in not knowing what. ... View more

Ann's point is evident in the sun reference she gave. Why does a user need to know when some one started checking the forums and such. It does not take long on a forum to see who the regulars are that have good answers. They are also available to answer your questions when asked. Many are professionals in their own right and do a great job with answers. However, for me at least, it is a lot easier to scan the messages without all the irrelevant information. Being able to select an individual to get more information would be fine. In modern times, a pass over could also be used - but that would slow the loading of the page. Many of the things that are being requested can likely be done with preferences for those who want the avatars and other trivia versus those that do not want the author box, but just a header line as currently being used. ... View more

Thanks John. Now I know that I am not going crazy. It was probably associated with a plug-in also, since others with SeaMonkey and FireFox were not seeing the issue. It works now as expected. Thanks again. I am still concerned about the extra box that seems to in the works on the left to put in the author info. That is a big waste of space that is not needed. I guess I should not complain since the current forums have a fixed width and to not always make the best use of the space in that sense. Bill ... View more

There was about an inch of wasted space all the way down the left side of the page on my monitor for the "sun" link. It was the block reserved for avatars and such. I could care less what someone looks like or such as I page through the forums. That is wasted space and keeps being part of the proposed look. If the poster was listed in 1 line before the post, as on this forum, it would be much easier to go through. The fact that it allows full width is useful. The current forums here have a fixed width and I have 60% of the right side of the screen blank. In a sense, this width issue is just as bad. ... View more

I looked at the link in post 14 and the messages had the same wasted avatar space and such that many have been saying to leave out. I clicked on one of the topics and there were only 3 messages on the first screen with tons of dead space. That is the waste that is not acceptable. Leave the avatar format with a left box for the poster info as an option. Otherwise, post a 1 line bit about the poster as currently used in this forum with a link (the name) to more info if desired. In reading the other posts about the new look (like expect the change in April 2009), I am not hopeful. I think that the comments about simple, no background, and leaving the avatar and signature blocks as an option will likely all be ignored. Be prepared to have some spare time in April. Bill ... View more

What might be useful is to archive the older FAQs someplace that is linked to each forum. For example, the forms creation FAQ in Acrobat has to be recreated with each new version since the old FAQs are deleted. As a result, we keep answering the same questions again until the old FAQs are basically replaced with minor change for the new version. As for the topics themselves, I can live with the 12 month aspect. ... View more

I support Steve's comments. Let the extra flair, avatars and such, but a user preference and let us keep this display format like this one if desired. I would keep it. Every forum that I have seen referenced as better, I have found annoying due to the wasted space. Make the waste a user option. ... View more

Leave the signature information as a short 1-line at the top of the message as it now is (or given an option). The avatar and other info in a block at the side, wastes a lot of space that provides little or no information on the topic to be discussed. If you want the avatar and related information, let that come up if the user name is clicked (or maybe a scroll over). The major thing I like about the Adobe forums is the use of space compared to the others. I checked out the Nike site. The entry was a pain to have to chose a language, but I assume that can be gotten around. The big one for me was the user box at the left of each message that ends up wasting a lot of space. For short messages, it double or triples the vertical space. For long messages it leaves lots of white space on the left. Leave it as 1 line as currently done with the poster, date, time, and post number. If the avatars and such are to be used, leave that as a user preference. One little comment follows John's statement about a change a few weeks back. That is when I started having trouble with the back button in my browser taking my to the top of the previous page. Somehow, it got fixed last night! I thank John for his feedback that he has been giving. ... View more