Banned Participants Question

[LRK_2]

I keep getting wind of different longtime faithful participants who have been banned. I can't help but think that many of these are a mistake. So many who are gone were among the most helpful when users needed help.

Can someone who is in authority please offer an explanation? And can you please reassess this situation?

Thank you for your time…

Linda

[Guest]

I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I think Captiv8r's analysis in his first post above is accurate, BUT I disagree with the harshness and finality of the response to the TOS violations.  If Adobe wasn't enforcing the rules and allowed things to get out of hand then part of the blame is with the administrative policy; it's unfair to suddenly start enforcing the rules more strictly without a warning, pulling the rug out from underneath everyone who may not have realized they were crossing the line Adobe has drawn for user behavior.

IMO all recently implemented bans should be lifted on a probationary status perhaps, and if after this very clear warning, TOS violations still continue, go ahead and re-ban.

Permanently banning someone from user support for software they have purchased and support other users with isn't very wise or fair.

[Jochem van Dieten]

Ansury wrote on 12/8/2009 11:26 PM:

If Adobe wasn't enforcing the rules and allowed things to get out of hand, it's unfair to suddenly start enforcing them without a warning, pulling the rug out from underneath everyone who may not have realized they were crossing the line Adobe has drawn for user behavior.

Only the 5 people who were banned on November 3th and are still banned

might be able to claim they didn't know the rules would be enforced. If

we remove from that list the people who got real warnings (at least the

ones I know about, there might be more, I am not aware of all the

private communications from Adobe), we are left with three people.

IMO all recently implemented bans should be lifted on a probationary status perhaps

I think the first step should be that those three people send Adobe some

clear "message understood" email. No point in lifting a ban when the

message has not landed.

[Guest]

jochemd wrote:

I think the first step should be that those three people send Adobe some

clear "message understood" email. No point in lifting a ban when the

message has not landed.

My point is, if a ban doesn't send a message by now, nothing does.  I'm not sure that expecting Adobe customers who were banned to come back with a groveling email response is entirely necessary (or fair, since some may have been a little blindsided at the sudden enforcement), that's all.

[Jochem van Dieten]

Ansury wrote on 12/10/2009 7:50 PM:

I'm not sure that expecting Adobe customers who were banned to come back with a groveling email response is entirely necessary

It isn't about groveling or even apologizing for past behavior. It is

about establishing expectations for future behavior.

[Guest]

None of the powers that be at Adobe seem interested in making a full time commitment of moderating the forums and dealing with behaviour problems.Their forums, their call. The fact is, Adobe devotes little in the way of employee resources to the forums, so it's up to the hosts, and to an extent, John, in managing them.

The fact is that a few people have big problems with the forums and they choose to express them as loudly and as often as they can manage, and enlist others in their efforts... and don't bother to retain a realistic perspective. Since some of those people have decided to make me and others enemies, I no longer attempt to invest my volunteer efforts out here.

For the record, tho, this is one request I made fairly early on, and have restated at least a couple times in backroom topics:

Nov 2, 2009 6:42 PM

in response to: JimAtAdobeLR

Jim... can you please encourage everyone in getting away from the mindset of banning/punishing and, instead, work with the (problem?) people behind the scenes to learn their perspective.. what they think the problems are and what they think would help to make it better. There is a strong community that does care a lot about the forums there. It's going to become a case of the harder we push, the harder they will push back. We need to work on getting everyone to pull together, else it's going to end in total frustration for everyone.

Ansury wrote:

I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I think Captiv8r's analysis in his first post above is accurate, BUT I disagree with the harshness and finality of the response to the TOS violations.  If Adobe wasn't enforcing the rules and allowed things to get out of hand then part of the blame is with the administrative policy; it's unfair to suddenly start enforcing the rules more strictly without a warning, pulling the rug out from underneath everyone who may not have realized they were crossing the line Adobe has drawn for user behavior.

IMO all recently implemented bans should be lifted on a probationary status perhaps, and if after this very clear warning, TOS violations still continue, go ahead and re-ban.

Permanently banning someone from user support for software they have purchased and support other users with isn't very wise or fair.

[Captiv8r]

Hi Dorothy

Very well said and I like your perspective!

Cheers... Rick

[Guest]

Captiv8r wrote:

Hi Dorothy

Very well said and I like your perspective!

Cheers... Rick

Ya, but you're one of 'those' evil ones too... so your thoughts don't count either.

Anyway, one other I thought I'd drag out so people know how much I badmouth everyone...

Nov 3, 2009 1:36 PM

in response to:JimAtAdobeLR

Jim, I think that even most of those can be given another chance, but they have to be worked with privately to see how their chicken little behaviour impacts people's perception of the forums. They can turn it off, but you're right... it's so long standing that they may well need a 12 step program to do it. We (I'm including John, and the hosts, along with the peer user group out there) allowed them to grow their attitudes, believing that others would see through the nonsense at some point and call them on it... and some have... but their voices and their beliefs have been loud enough for long enough to override that. They need to understand that they are an extreme negative influence and promise to turn that attitude around, and maintain that promise, if they want to be allowed to remain. To have a go-to person behind the scenes will be a big factor in whether it will work or not. It will take time and energy, but could be well worth it.

[shunithD]

"Good Grief!" – Charlie Brown

[Guest]

No kidding. The statement is a prime example of baiting. 

[Guest]

a 12 step program?

How about one for the moderators who take such a hard stand, where a softer one would do the trick?  The heavy handed moderation is an abomination to the reputation of Adobe, IMHO.  Folks have been banned, without warning or explanation, even when asking for the explanation.  And now moderators want the <s>users</s> paying customers to humble themselves like little children and say "we got the message".

I know that tempers have flaired, words were said in anger etc, but that's life in general as well.  You have to learn to get past that sort of thing, cool it down and move on.  Instead, the mods ban, suspend etc and have the effect of inflamming the situation, instead of diffusing it.

It's a real shame to see what this forum has become.

[Guest]

But you forgot that we are just a bunch of "chicken littles" running around the confines of the forum walls yelling the sky is falling.  

[_Paz_]

Oh.  I see.

Anyone who believes these forums could ever be good again...

Anyone who believes these forums used to be GREAT!

Had better take a 12 step course and <s>goose step</s>

turn their attitude around.

Thank you for that insight, Dorothy.

[Captiv8r]

Hi Paz

I think the perception of the forums is likely divided. It seems to me that we fall into two groups.

Former "old school Adobe" forum users, who I will refer to as group one.

Former "Macromedia Inductees" forum users who I will refer to as group two.

Note that I mean no disrespect by saying "old school Adobe", I just couldn't think of a better way to express a representation of the users that have been with Adobe all along and were accustomed to the former incarnation of the forums.

I could be wrong here, but it seems to me that the largest and loudest outcry is emanating from the group one user base. The fora where I participate and help with moderation are primarily group two users. These users seem to have the attitude of meh, things changed. Let's move on.

From what I'm seeing, the group one users believed the former forum software to offer the best possible environment to work with. And because it has changed, some of them seem inconsolable. These users seem to feel that the new Jive software is an abomination. Some of them seem to hold the belief that if they stomp, scream, rant and rave loudly and longly enough that Adobe will hear their cries and revert the software back to what it was. But I have serious doubts that will happen.

Adobe made a decision to change the software. It was surely a huge investment on many fronts. (Software, Time, Personnel) Now we have our standard choices. We may provide constructive feedback about what works and what doesn't. Basically accepting that is what we have and learning how best to deal with it. Or we can "vote with our feet" and move on to something that appears to be a better fit. It's really a shame that experienced and helpful folks have left. But that was their choice to do so and any of us may stop participating for any reason whatsoever.

As I see it what really needs to happen is that we need to come to terms with the fact that regardless of how much we scream and shout, Adobe is not going to revert back to the former software. Obviously they felt a change was needed and they made that change. We just need to face it and accept that little fact. If we can at least accept that all we can really change here is how we deal with what has been presented to us, I think that will be a major step forward. And once we can reach that point, perhaps we can then begin to see ways that we can make the Jive (or whatever software is in place) work better for all of us.

As for moderation, no banning has occurred in the fora where I participate. There has never been a need. If someone becomes abusive, sheer peer pressure alone usually quells that and no moderation is really needed. Primarily, as a co-moderator in these fora, we brainstorm to think of ways to make the forum experience better for all. Sticky areas and lists of Frequently Encountered Issues. Helpful links to other resources. Things such as that.

Cheers... Rick

[Cindy-]

I think the perception of the forums is likely divided. It seems to me that we fall into two groups.

Former "old school Adobe" forum users, who I will refer to as group one.

Former "Macromedia Inductees" forum users who I will refer to as group two

Finally!! This sums it up for me. It is obvious who has been running these forums.

[Captiv8r]

Hi Cindy

Not sure I follow. Adobe runs the forums.

Your comment seems to infer the current state of the forums is a direct result of those that were formerly on the Macromedia side.

Certainly the influx of additional users likely precipitated the forums change, as Adobe had to search for software that would allow scaling to what they needed. If what they were using before would have accommodated that, it would seem bad from a business perspective to abandon that in favor of something new. So I'm sure they made the best compromise they could.

After all, each of us (Adobe included) make the best decisions we can given the current wisdom we have at the time. No? At least I'd like to beleive that's the case. I do suppose some make bad decisions knowing the decision is a bad one. But I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Cheers... Rick

[Cindy-]

I would like to know just how many "moderators" are from the Macromedia side and how many came from the "old school" Adobe users.

[LRK_2]

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember Macromedia users in the DW Forum also complaining during the changeover. Many were used to using another forum format (Web Forum Reader? Not sure), which they also had to give up. From what I understand, we may have lost some of those users/contributors, as they did not want to have to make the change either.

[Daverms]

From what I'm seeing, the group one users believed the former forum software to offer the best possible environment to work with. And because it has changed, some of them seem inconsolable. These users seem to feel that the new Jive software is an abomination.

JIVE doesn't even support simple operation like, Ctrl+Z (or) Ctrl+Y...  Isn't that frustrating for you?.

[Captiv8r]

Hi there

Nope, sorry.

LOL, I actually, I had to look up Ctrl+Y as I don't normally use that shortcut. Ctrl+Z, sure. But not Ctrl+Y. I can't really think of why I might want to undo/redo something when typing replies and helping folks. Copy/Paste I certainly use a lot. That seems to work.

However, this doesn't mean I feel it couldn't stand improvement in many areas. For example, dealing with attachments and inserting images.

Maybe I'm just an odd duck and too forgiving of software. I don't even mind that I have to actually log in to post. That seems to be present in all the other forums software that other companies use. I see folks grousing about the logging in and the software automatically logging them out after a period of time. Seems to make sense to me that if you didn't use it in a while, you would be logged out. I have some sites that log me out after perhaps three minutes. Sure, it's financial information and it's sensitive, but I don't see a problem with a forum logging you out after a period of time.

Cheers... Rick

[Phillip_M_Jones]

Its not so much that we want to go back. It's  that, if we have to stay with this software it should work correctly.

We don't need to use a special style sheet just to get the window to expand to the width of the computer screen not just some preset width and length. Preset widths and height in web pages are dumb and old school to make a decent site they should float and size according to screen.

We also don't have to put up with typing and line breaking at random.

There are still people having problems with automatic login and automatic log out at no particualr time.

The points system is unnecessary. The abuse button is unnecessary and its ripe for abuse itself.

There is an atmosphere in  these jive type forums, that no one really wanted and any that stays  simply because the Moderators can put up with them

The Community Experts is a waste of time.  It makes new and old alike feel they are being lectured to at a university or elementary school.

And despite the scoffing at the idea. the old forum (not the software that runs it) we were a community. In this forum (not software) it cold and analytical and a sense of Community is despised and rediculed.

And finally we stay on only at the descretion of the moderators.

And you wonder why the old guard, left in droves. Yes the number may not be much different. But look around and see if you can remember when you saw certain old regulars that were here for years and years, and now gone.

[Guest]

We are drifting off the topic of good charitable people, donating free time and resources over the span of many years, being banned for life as a result of a first time offense.

[Guest]

It pretty much proves my point when people pick apart what someone is saying in order to choose the bits they want to focus on to turn it into whatever they want it to be.

Did anyone catch the real point that I was making? It was that the Adobe employees making the decisions should communicate with those affected. In addition it was saying that it's a long standing problem which is not going to be easy to solve.

If said employees decide to just ban (after very many notices in the forums about expected behaviour, btw) that is their choice. That they got banned should be no surprise to those that were. Unless, of course, they choose to ignore the warnings... assuming perhaps that it couldn't apply to them. Surprise! It did. And, it does.

[Guest]

No the point was not clear. What was clear was the blatant mocking of forum participants to a point of baiting them with the chicken little theory and the silly proposal of the 12 point rehab system.

[Guest]

dec9 wrote:

No the point was not clear. What was clear was the blatant mocking of forum participants to a point of baiting them with the chicken little theory and the silly proposal of the 12 point rehab system.

So you are saying that people have not blown the facts about the current software out of proportion, that they accurately remember the complaints about the WebX software in addition to what they liked about it, and share a balanced opinion based on facts, and that complaining for the sake of complaining is not a long standing problem that will probably require some therapy style communications to resolve? Some of the people that were banned were exhibiting similar behaviours while we were still in WebX. They simply got more ammunition when the changeover did not go well... and used that to full advantage. Some of them do have a problem, and others follow their lead... which makes it our problem.

[Guest]

My reply was totally focused on what was said, how it was said and the agenda behind it.