Jochem van Dieten Must Be Relieve of His Moderator Status (Mark II)

[Fr__Watson]

The first thread on this matter seems to have been deleted, presumeably by Mr. van Dieten

It is my assertion that Jochem van Dieten has abused his moderator's priveledges by innappropriately deleting threads and posts with which he does not agree. He has been rude not only to some of the more 'curmudgeonly' forum members, but also to those whom are not troublesome (Claudio, 'GreenJumpyOne' are two that spring to mind). He has been arbitrary-seeming in many of his decisions as moderator; he has shown himself hostile, uncooperative and on occasion childish. He has not, seemingly, been held to account for his reprehensible, unprofessional conduct, and is (IMO) a disgrace to Adobe Corp. He has no 'people skills' and is thus an exceptionally bad choice for the position of moderator.

If you agree, please say so. If possible, give some examples of Mr. van Dieten's behaviour which illustrate my assertions above.

I am posting this partly to give people who wish to have a venue to complain about censorship (and other) issues may do so without taking up more space in another thread.

[Guest]

Why would it be important that somebody is human?

[Jochem van Dieten]

Ozzwoman9 wrote on 9/16/2009 9:22 PM:

Again, it just because someone has an issue with your moderating or disagrees with the way you do things does not mean that their post should be deleted.

I think this forum contains hundreds of examples that show I really

don't have a problem with people expressing their disagreement. The

imperative words being "this forum".

If you have an issue with navigation and 'content-free' pages on the

Adobe.com website, you post in the Adobe.com feedback forum. If you have

an issue with i18n settings not carrying across between the forum and

the site, it is about both and you get to pick where you want to post.

If you have an issue with moderation, you post in the Forum comments forum.

It really is that simple.

[Fr__Watson]

That first thread you mention, would that be 

Yes. I looked for it, but did not see it, for whatever reason; had I seen it I should certainly have bumped it rather than having created a new thread.

[Harbs.]

I disagree.

I do believe that Jochem has made a few mistakes in his moderation,

but only a few. If you refer back to the first posts on the subject,

as soon as there was moderation OF ANY KIND, everyone came down VERY

HARD, on anything Jochem did. The comments on this forum were getting

out of hand and moderation was needed without question. Jochem

responded at first to question why people came down so hard on his

moderation, and no-one gave him an intelligible answer.

In Jochem's position, I don't believe I would have done any better

than him -- probably much worse.

I have been subscribing to the Forum Comments since the forums

switched over, and have every post ever made here saved in email. The

only deletion I can think of which I don't agree with is the recent

issue with Ozzwoman. If anyone wants to question any deletions, I'll

be happy to refer back to the originals!

There's always going to be issues with clashing personalities, but I

believe it's unreasonable to expect a moderator to not be human. Why

should a moderator have to be subjected to constant ridicule, and not

be allowed to make any mistakes of his own? I think that all

considering, Jochem has exhibited tremendous self restraint in how he

responded to issues.

Harbs

[Fr__Watson]

I think that all  considering, Jochem has exhibited tremendous self restraint in how he responded to issues.

I disagree.

If, by "self restraint", you mean that JVD has not launched any great verbal tirades, from what I have seen, I would agree. I do not consider this, however, as self restraint on JVD's part; he comes across to me as emotionally shallow, and, IMO, you have to have a certain amount of emotional 'oomph' in you to flame someone.

But that aside, it is, IMO, Mr. van Dieten's tremendous lack of self restraint in the application of his powers of moderator which has, IMO, contributed greatly to the acrimony and hostility which now exist in this forum. Locking threads, or deleting posts was, in times before, used by the moderators very rarely, and usually to stop a conflict which was occurring. Mr. van Dieten, on the other hand, locks threads (it seems) if he perceives that they are "off topic", as in this thread: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2244541#2244541

Discussing the acts (real or imaginary) of Congress to make laws that

violate the first amendment here is off topic so I am locking this thread.

I think that is a pretty trivial reason to lock a thread, don't you? Mr. van Dieten seems to have some strange feeling that the forum will collapse, or something, if a thread or post he deems "off-topic" exists!

Now, you would have Mr. van Dieten to be made out as a victim here, but I would like to remark on how he has responded, on occasion, by attempts of forum members to be positive and helpful.

JayJhabrix

1,174 posts since
May 14, 2003

Currently Being Moderated

Aug 4, 2009 1:00 AM

The happy camper...

Who says Adobe customer support is all bad? Here's a happy camper:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2152196#2152196

Jochem van Dieten

751 posts since
Apr 8, 2001

Currently Being Moderated

1. Aug 4, 2009 1:02 AM in response to: JayJhabrix

Re: The happy camper...

Discussions about customer support do not belong here.

And Mr. van Dieten locked the thread.

Is that not remarkable and wondrous? That someone should attempt to lighten the mood with a post about a happy customer. In response, the moderator curtly says such things do not belong & locks the thread. Does this strike you as helpful? I hope not. Does it strike you as likely to cause hurt feelings/resentment? I commented on this at the time. My post was deleted.

Again, using the moderator's powers for trivial reasons. People get resentful when people in positions of power or authority use those powers trivially.

Imagine for a moment I were a moderator. Suppose I said "The topic of this thread is "JVD must be relieved etc." Your post was off topic so I am removing it. Please start your own thread called "JVD is doing a great job etc". How would you feel, I wonder?

One last example....

I did already quote how Mr. van Dieten, in response to a constructive suggestion from a forum member, said instead he would not,  and would continue to not do so. In addition to being childish (one of the few human traits Mr. van Dieten exhibits), it also shows bad judgement, hostility, and it escalates conflict.

I have wasted enough time.

You think Mr. van Dieten has showed restraint? I disagree.

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

The Forum Hosts come from the Adobe Community Experts program.

Most of these so-called "Experts" are so far removed from anything resembling being an "Expert" that the title is meaningless.

Allowing these people to become Forum Moderators was almost as bad an error as adopting Jive; and Jochem van Dieten is a prime example and is a major reason why I no longer contribute to these Forums.

He has driven away virtually every erstwhile worthwhile contributor to these Forums and the discussions are now so lacking in substance (as a result of losing the REAL Experts) that I very seldom even look at them any longer.

I whole-heartedly support the request to relieve Jochem van Dieten of his Moderator Status.

[Guest]

It's a pity a few more of the really helpful and knowledgeable people like Ann don't pop in and voice their disgust.

(Maybe not in this thread though.)

I avoid the use of the term "expert" since it has become tainted for me.

[Guest]

SIGNED in agreement to the OP.

jochemd wrote:

Harbs. wrote on 9/16/2009 9:51 AM:

I don't think there were any posts from Ozzwoman deleted. She tried to

post three times at the same time that this thread was being locked.

They were posted. The repeated posts were actually the trigger for me to

lock the thread: I had no idea of when Ozzwoman was going to stop

repeating the same message over and over again. Apparently it stopped

sometime between my lock and kanguyen's unlock.

To continue the discussion of 'moderation issues' started in another thread in a more appropriate place, this makes no sense.  Why would Ozzwoman post the same thing over and over again unless the original was being deleted?  Are you accusing Ozzwoman of spamming identical posts intentionally?   Why would someone even do that?  And if a second was somehow posted accidentally due to JiveBugs© or other issues, why delete both?

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

It's a pity a few more of the really helpful and knowledgeable people like Ann don't pop in and voice their disgust.

Unfortunately, you have probably lost many of them permanently.

Jochem actually had one of the most knowledgeable and prolific contributors permanently BANNED from all of the Adobe Forums — and that was after that person had given freely of his own time here for more than ten years.

Jochem's behaviour has been not only out of control but utterly outrageous; and it seems that JC has had the rug pulled from under him and no longer has much influence on how these Forums are run.

[~graffiti]

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

Jochem's behaviour has been not only out of control but utterly outrageous; and it seems that JC has had the rug pulled from under him and no longer has much influence on how these Forums are run.

Reminds me of a kid that just got his first job supervising other people. He hasn't learned how to do it yet (so goes way overboard) and has no idea how to relate to his employees.

[Jochem van Dieten]

Ann Shelbourne wrote on 9/17/2009 2:46 AM:

Jochem actually had one of the most knowledgeable and prolific contributors permanently BANNED from all of the Adobe Forums

So who did I get banned this time?

[Kath-H]

Are there so many that you've forgotten?

@ Ann - I don't think this was down to just one mod, to be fair.

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

Are there so many that you've forgotten?

@ Ann - I don't think this was down to just one mod, to be fair.

Who ever was responsible (and I understand that Jochem was indeed one of them, if not the prime one) what was done was reprehensible and is a perfect illustration of the nasty, spiteful and thoroughly unprofessional atmosphere which now prevails in the Adobe Forums and underlines my choice to participate in Forums other than Adobe's these days.

If a company values its customers (and the individual to which I am referring has been an Adobe Customer for more than 20 years!) you do NOT treat them in that way.

The former Adobe Forums did a great deal to boost sales of Adobe's software.

How interesting that their current financials reflect a huge downturn in their bottom line and a major shortfall in CS4 sales.

Is it just co-incidence that this co-incides with the Micromedia-izing of these Forums; outsourcing Adobe Customer Service; replacing highly revered Adobe personnel with less competent Macromedia imports; and generally infuriating Adobe's long-term, and formerly extremely loyal, Customer base?

Add to that, the totally unfair pricing of their software in Europe (and the rest of the world beyond the USA) which has driven hoards of erstwhile loyal users of Adobe products in those countries to either boycott the CS4 Upgrade or to actively seek alternatives.

And now what do Adobe do but pay the earth for yet another Corporate Acquisition that is likely to be even more a drain on the company than was the ill-advised Macromedia "merger".

These Forums just reflect the general sickness that now envelops the once-great Adobe enterprise.

[Jochem van Dieten]

Ann Shelbourne wrote on 9/17/2009 7:37 PM:

Who ever was responsible (and I understand that Jochem was indeed one of them, if not the prime one)

So I am allowed to know who I am accused of getting permanently banned?

[Guest]

jochemd wrote:

So I am allowed to know who I am accused of getting permanently banned?

You know perfectly well!

Don't come with the injured innocence!

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

If you had taken the slightest trouble to glean any knowledge of the history and customs of these Forums before you came on the scene, you would know that I am referring to Ramón Castañeda.

The loss of his input in the Photoshop (Mac) and ACR forums leaves a huge void and the loss of his participation — and that of others of similar stature who have left in disgust with the sort of "Moderation" which we now have to endure since you and some of the so-called "Community Experts" were given free-reign to create havoc in these Forums — makes visits to these Forums a complete waste of time.

Formerly we had real "Experts" as Moderators/Forum Hosts (people who actually have real-life experience in the professional Graphic Arts industry) such as Neil Keller.

People of that calibre just decided that they had "work commitments elsewhere" when these Forums were changed from a Professional Meeting place into a Kiddies Playground — with all of the small-minded viciousness that your idea of "Moderation" encapsulates.

[Jochem van Dieten]

Ann Shelbourne wrote on 9/17/2009 8:04 PM:

I am referring to Ramón Castañeda.

I figured you were talking about him, but unlike some I don't like to

make accusations based on assumptions. And no, I was not involved in

getting him banned.

[S_D_A_]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:04:56PM -0600, Ann Shelbourne uttered:

If you had taken the slightest trouble to glean any knowledge of the history and customs of these Forums before you came on the scene, you would know that I am referring to Ramón Castañeda.

The loss of his input in the Photshop (Mac) and ACR forums leaves a huge void and the loss of his participation — and that of others of similar stature who have left in disgust with the sort of "Moderation" which we now have to endure since you and some of the so-called "Community Experts" were given free-reign to create havoc in these Forums — makes visits to these Forums a complete waste of time.

Formerly we had real "Experts" as Moderators/Forum Hosts (people who actually have real-life experience in the professional Graphic Arts industry) such as Neil Keller.

People of that calibre just decided that they had "work commitments elsewhere" when these Forums were changed from a Professional Meeting place into a Kiddies Playground — with all of the small-minded viciousness that your idea of "Moderation" encapsulates.

Adobe doesn't need his kind of help on these forums. He was insulting and

derogatory and too quick to jump on people's backs. Doesn't matter how

knowledgeable a person is; There is always someone else just as knowledgeable

to replace him/her. Adobe needs newbie friendly people helping out with

their customer service. Ramon was not one of those types of individuals.

Good riddance is all I'll say. And why do you care Ann? You said you were

done with these forums, quite a well ago. So why are you and Ansury still

here?

end

[Fr__Watson]

Adobe needs newbie friendly people helping out with their customer service.

Like Mr. Van Dieten was in the posts I quoted, I presume?

[Guest]

Fr. Watson wrote:

Adobe needs newbie friendly people helping out with their customer service.

Like Mr. Van Dieten was in the posts I quoted, I presume?

Are there any concrete examples of cases where the booted out "old school" users were nasty and mean to "newbies"?  Hmmm...

[Captiv8r]

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

Who ever was responsible (and I understand that Jochem was indeed one of them, if not the prime one) what was done was reprehensible and is a perfect illustration of the nasty, spiteful and thoroughly unprofessional atmosphere which now prevails in the Adobe Forums and underlines my choice to participate in Forums other than Adobe's these days.

If a company values its customers (and the individual to which I am referring has been an Adobe Customer for more than 20 years!) you do NOT treat them in that way.

Sorry, unclear as to the meaning of that. What are you referring to? Was someone publicly flogged? I must have missed that.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

The former Adobe Forums did a great deal to boost sales of Adobe's software.

I might assume that any forum that assists users with ticklish issues may help boost sales. But I'm curious how that would really happen. Because the folks that visit the forums are usually the folks having issues with the software they have already purchased. So I'm not sure how that would work to boost sales exactly. Unless perhaps you mean repeat business with upgrades because folks know that there are good and knowledgeable folks in the forums to help. So they feel a bit more confident in upgrading.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

How interesting that their current financials reflect a huge downturn in their bottom line and a major shortfall in CS4 sales.

I don't personally find it all that interesting. But maybe that's just me. It's also interesting that Adobe's financials reflect nearly every other company that is suffering. It's called an economic disaster that's occurring in real time on a global scale.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

Is it just co-incidence that this co-incides with the Micromedia-izing of these Forums; outsourcing Adobe Customer Service; replacing highly revered Adobe personnel with less competent Macromedia imports; and generally infuriating Adobe's long-term, and formerly extremely loyal, Customer base?

Add to that, the totally unfair pricing of their software in Europe (and the rest of the world beyond the USA) which has driven hoards of erstwhile loyal users of Adobe products in those countries to either boycott the CS4 Upgrade or to actively seek alternatives.

And now what do Adobe do but pay the earth for yet another Corporate Acquisition that is likely to be even more a drain on the company than was the ill-advised Macromedia "merger".

These Forums just reflect the general sickness that now envelops the once-great Adobe enterprise.

Your post would seem to infer that your issues are a bit unfairly directed solely at the forums. It would seem that you are just infuriated at Adobe's business practices. Like it or not, the Adobe family now also includes former Macromedia (and many other companies) former employees and followers.

I speak only for myself here, but I find it a bit unsettling that your view of anyone that didn't originate with Adobe and the core Adobe products is somehow less qualified by virtue of association. Seems a bit elitist and terribly unfair if you ask me. Sort of judging someone by how they look and not how they act or what other qualities they may exhibit.

Sincerely... Rick

[Guest]

Captiv8r wrote:

I might assume that any forum that assists users with ticklish issues may help boost sales. But I'm curious how that would really happen. Because the folks that visit the forums are usually the folks having issues with the software they have already purchased. So I'm not sure how that would work to boost sales exactly. Unless perhaps you mean repeat business with upgrades because folks know that there are good and knowledgeable folks in the forums to help. So they feel a bit more confident in upgrading.

I can point out one reason on this topic-- before I make a major software purchase, one of the first things I check (after making sure it meets my requirements) is how active and decent the forum/help community is.  And yes, it has influenced my decision in the past.

Actually, what am I saying, I even check this when looking for OSS or OSS libraries!  It's one of the most important things to me.

[Fr__Watson]

Seems a bit elitist and terribly unfair if you ask me.

The very existence of titles such as "Community Expert" seems a little elitist (and kind of stupid and meaningless) if you ask me. Why not ditch your title, since you have professed that you are here only to help others? You can do that without a title, if I am not mistaken.

Sort of judging someone by how they look and not how they act or what other qualities they may exhibit.

You may or may not have noticed, but I offered some commentary on Mr. van Dieten's behaviour above, and I illustrated my assertions with quotes and examples of how he has acted. I hope that doesn't seem terribly unfair to you. No one has offered any objections to what I said (and illustrated with examples and quotes), so I must assume that we are in agreement that Mr. van Dieten's behaviour has been childish, unprofessional, hostile, and unhelpful, has helped to escalate the conflicts and feelings of hostility here, and so on.

Cheers.

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

so I must assume that we are in agreement that Mr. van Dieten's behaviour has been childish, unprofessional, hostile, and unhelpful, has helped to escalate the conflicts and feelings of hostility here, and so on.

I am in total agreement with your statement.

I also find the input of the other so-called Community "Experts" to be a major cause of the resentment and hostility that has been engendered in these Forums since they made their appearances here.

It might also help to lessen the hostility which I feel towards them if they would drop their preaching tone and if they would wipe the smirks off their collective faces by removing those obnoxious mug-shots from their avatars!

[Guest]

Well, at least it says cats and not something offensive! 

Do we really need to be herded that badly? (honest question)