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Joke...

Engaged ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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I just love the way we're all diddling around in here hoping against hope that things will improve. Posting messages, complaining, hoping... It's quite clear. Adobe doesn't give a rat's rear end. Any marginal improvements are purely a result of usage and becoming used to the present depressing, dismal and defunct scenario. No major changes have happened or are likely to happen. The forums are vitiated. The newbies and casual visitors don't care or know the difference.

In other words the joke is really on us... the old timers... the ones who have a yardstick, albeit fastly evaporating, of what once was...

Well,

Cheers...

JJ

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Guru ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Like I wrote before: The lower standard has now become the norm.

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Mentor ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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For all general purposes I've really cut back on helping. I see lots of bad help and newbie question mostly from shear laziness of not reading the manuals. I'm going to let the blind lead the blind for a while. Soon it will get out that the Adobe forum is a Joke now and that the caliber of help that you could get is no longer available.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Like Buko and David said, the standard of questions and answers – at least in the Photoshop group of forums – is appalling.


Adobe has really become a joke.


And those forums seem to be dying.

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Contributor ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Quite frankly, I'm surprised that more of the old timers haven't left, or that they (read: those of you still hanging round complaining, and trying to help fix things here??) still post as much as you do.


I'm no fairweather friend...I stuck with this place through previous rough patches, and was glad and proud for having done so.


But it's become clear to me that there has been a MAJOR shift in the trickle down attitude at Adobe...from products, to service and right down to these forums, and the faithful have been shat upon. We, who provided feedback from the trenches, who read every post in every forum we frequented, we who have helped countless numbers of our peers, we were the people that built up such a tremendous amount of goodwill.


It's ALL gone.


I have to wonder what it is that keeps you (Buko, Kath, Jay Jhabrix, Joslin, Milbut, to name just a very few) coming back, and why you continue to beat your heads against the wall? Big among the complaints is the lack of feedback, and progress. Adobe no longer gives a fraction of a crap about any of us. All they care about are numbers. Why give them any help? THEY DON'T CARE HOW WE FEEL!


I'll still pop in, and make a rare post, but Adobe—and I mean everyone responsible for this mess—is going to have to show me a MAJOR shift back to the core ideals for me to become a regular participant again.


Me and my yardstick, we have better things to measure these days.


[edited for content]

Message was edited by: Jochem van Dieten

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Advocate ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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So we both get deleted but 'shat upon' survives Enough time this side of the looking glass for me.

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Advocate ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Tell me, Jochem, do you know the term 'Pyrrhic victory' ?

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Engaged ,
Aug 16, 2009 Aug 16, 2009

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Phos±four dots wrote:

Me and my yardstick, we have better things to measure these days.


[edited for content]

Message was edited by: Jochem van Dieten

Like?

And i just wish these moderators would stop editing content for the sake of editing content... This isn't '1984'.

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Contributor ,
Aug 16, 2009 Aug 16, 2009

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wow.

I've not read anything in this thread that was deserving of moderation of any kind.

amazing.  Is this what this forum board has been reduced to?

edit:  I was not aware of Phos' multiple posts to irritate Jochem.  Those I can see getting deleted, others...???

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Enthusiast ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Agreed!  I have been in Europe for about 3 weeks with a horrible internet connection.  Consequently, I didn't even try to connect.

So, I hoped that upon my return home SOMETHING would have been improved/fixed/upgraded.  Alas, nothing that I see has changed.  I have also yet to see a single request from the beta period get implemented.

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New Here ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Speaking of funny, the forum listing shows 20 replies, yet I only see seven; does that mean 13 posts have been removed? Wow!

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Mentor ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Two of them were mine.

Now its three what a joke!

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Contributor ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Someone recently quoted me (David Powers perhaps?) and asked me why I thought it was "sad" that the forums were like they are now.

Someone else (SDA perhaps?)  mentioned why community matters?

I certainly am confident enough in my real life that I don't need/require validation from an online forum.  That said, however, a large portion of the reasons I came to this forum (since 1999, regardless of what my profile says) was to learn from experts in the field and in the process, I came to "know" them.  I enjoyed the learning process so much more because I felt I was part of the helping/learning community.

I have made friends on this board ... friends who can help me in things other than Photoshop.  It was because of these friends and their enthusiasm that I continued to truly *want* to upgrade to the latest and greatest in the Adobe line of products.  And now, most of those friends are gone.  Gone because of the TOS, gone because of the slowness of this forum, gone because their thought/opinions are no longer valued by the very company they helped keep in business.

and more are leaving.

That is why it is sad.  And that is why community matters.

hopper

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LEGEND ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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I have just logged in after about a couple of weeks, just to check if the joke is still on us. I think it is.


1. Although I notice some cosmetic changes, none of the major problems has been solved.


2. I see we now have new moderators who do not seem to understand what old frequent users still around are complaining about, and who do not seem to care if the number of faithful collaborators continues decreasing. Deleting and censoring posts, or closing threads, is not the best way to retain those still posting, or encouraging those who have left to come back.


3. I explained in here http://forums.adobe.com/message/2105030#2105030 why I was abandoning the forums. This is part of what I wrote:


So, then, what has been my battle, why did I fight it for so long, and why am I surrendering now? Well, I stumbled upon the forums in Spanish almost by accident, probably in late 2003 or early 2004, and was horrified by the mixture in their fixed text of a very few phrases in more or less correct Spanish, too many in horrible Spanglish, and high number directly in English. I was also very worried by the extremely low number of participants. So, being a born mill treader (sorry if I invented this expression), I have been struggling all these years to correct both things.

I was very successful in the early beginnings, when with a very willing and efficient JC,  we changed a not negligible amount of the fixed text to a more decent Spanish (my own) without telling anyone. Sadly, this process ended with the takeover of the Spanish forums by "Adobe Fenwick", a hit of a name we owe to you. Then came this shadow committee that never worked (and I think never existed) from which I was vetoed after several months, and then... nothing, nothing at all for months that turned to years.

Until the present debacle. As I explained above, we ended with "all the cats in the same bag" (please give me a hand with this idiom, Ramón), and with an impossible labyrinth for newcomers to pass through to get into this one and only Spanish forum.

I am aware that the same thing happened at least in the forums in French (by the way, Pierre shows no recent activity whatsoever), and I know that, with the recently implemented new forums (I wonder if anyone foresaw what a chaos this was going to turn into), there were at first much more pressing matters than worrying about this mouse that never roared. And when the magnitude of the chaos could be more accurately gauged, such a small matter must have been dropped.

So why am I surrendering? Simply because, even with my inherited optimism, I cannot see the slightest hope of any positive change in the forum in Spanish until the forums in English work as they should. And, even in my more optimistic moods, I cannot foresee any effective measures to achieve the later and therefore none at all of achieving the former.

Waiting four years for some improvement when there was a very slight glimmer of hope is one thing; waiting another four years when there is none at all is quite a different matter. In any case, I will miss you all, and very much, although I am not locking the doors for ever. Coming back several times per month, at least to the "Discussions..." forum, will be unavoidable; I'm simply not the type to discard an old love as an old shoe.

I'm sad to see there have been no further posts in that thread.


4. However, I think the most cruel joke by far is this:

Cruel.jpg

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LEGEND ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Claudio


They remind me of a quotation I learned a long time ago:


... they use the snaffle and the curb all right;
But where's the bloody horse?

Roy Campbell (1902-1957), South African poet.

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Guru ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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The horse is still around but is now deaf and wanders around aimlessly because someone superglued the blinders over its eyes.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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I forgot to mention that I have read some completely unfounded insulting personal comments that I have found really disgusting. Like suggesting that Hopper should spend more time helping in the products forums than here, or that Ramón was not really quiting these forums for he would soon reappear under a new identity. (I'm citing from memory so the words may not be the same, but the ideas were clear enough). Hopper has been for years a most helpful participant, and Ramón has always posted under his own true name, and anyone who thinks otherwise is very ill informed.

There is a special forum where some people may enjoy reading such comments, but they should be completely out of place here. Or should I say "they used to be" instead?

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Contributor ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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Claudio González wrote:

I forgot to mention that I have read some completely unfounded insulting personal comments that I have found really disgusting. Like suggesting that Hopper should spend more time helping in the products forums than here,

Claudio,

THANKS for your support.   I will say, I was, indeed, surprised to see the comment, but, well, as the kids say, "what can I say"?  The mods are not used to seeing many of us, so they must think we are brand new users.  10 years in age is indeed young, 10 years in an online forum is old! 

I'm sorry that the Spanish forums are just as messed up as the English ones are.  Wonder where Pierre went?  Has anyone seen Mathias?

<sigh>  there are those of us who care, and seemingly those who run these boards that don't. 

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LEGEND ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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greenjumpyone wrote:

Claudio,

THANKS for your support.   I will say, I was, indeed, surprised to see the comment, but, well, as the kids say, "what can I say"?  The mods are not used to seeing many of us, so they must think we are brand new users.  10 years in age is indeed young, 10 years in an online forum is old! 

I'm sorry that the Spanish forums are just as messed up as the English ones are.  Wonder where Pierre went?  Has anyone seen Mathias?

<sigh>  there are those of us who care, and seemingly those who run these boards that don't. 

You have nothing to thank me for, although I am surprised to see that such diatribes did not receive the firm and solidary rebuke they deserved.

Those who wrote the two examples I quote certainly did not know whom they were writing about. Shame that they didn't care to find out first.

And I wish the Spanish forum (not forums now, just all products in the same bag) were just as messed up as the English ones, or even remotely as messed up...

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LEGEND ,
Aug 15, 2009 Aug 15, 2009

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There is a recurring theme in many, many messages.


Where are the good helpers?


They have been put off, firstly by the awful forum software and secondly by the cold, unhappy atmosphere which the present generation of moderation policing has created

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LEGEND ,
Aug 16, 2009 Aug 16, 2009

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I am posting again because I haven't been kicked out yet.


JJ, I was never a good helper, just a mediocre one because I am an amateur in the use of Adobe products, so I never expected to be missed, but yes, I am one of those who have left, although I do come in occassionaly, still hoping to see some progress. But I don't.


Getting into a 32 message thread to find that it ends in message number 18 is disconcerting. And discouraging. Maybe those who were following the thread when those missing messages vanished know what happened, and hopefully they learned some positive lesson, although I doubt it. For the rest, this discrepancy in the number of messages leaves us puzzling: is this a new bug in the software (today I got 404 errors after four attempts!)? Or maybe a bug in the new moderators, who perhaps think that a private and hidden use of a guillotine serves some useful purpose? To their pride, may be. We have this wise saying in Spanish: vence quien convence, to win, you need to convince (in a free translation). With it's variant vences pero no convences, you may be dominating but you are not convincing. And this other one: la pluma es más fuerte que la espada, the pen is stronger than the sword.

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Mentor ,
Aug 16, 2009 Aug 16, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

There is a recurring theme in many, many messages.


Where are the good helpers?


They have been put off, firstly by the awful forum software and secondly by the cold, unhappy atmosphere which the present generation of moderation policing has created

According to S.D.A no forum of any type should have any warmth and feeling, what so ever. Forums are not  a place for feeling community. Forums are only for information purposes.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 16, 2009 Aug 16, 2009

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Phillip, you forgot to add that the quality of the information provided is of no importance whatsoever.

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Mentor ,
Aug 16, 2009 Aug 16, 2009

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Claudio González wrote:

Phillip, you forgot to add that the quality of the information provided is of no importance whatsoever.

I wasn't particularly addressing that. Of course what S.D.A.  said I don't believe in. That Forums get more information across and more people learn more things when ther is a sense of Community

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LEGEND ,
Aug 16, 2009 Aug 16, 2009

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Probably my last post before being kicked out, and until next time I come back and log in again.


Phillip, because of my limited knowledge of the English language, I nearly always find it difficult to follow you but, are you seriously saying that a sense of community does not help in getting more (high quality?) information to come across, and in getting more people to learn more (valuable?) things? If you are, you have fallen quite a lot down in my scale of friends. Out of it, as a matter of fact.


On the same line: I had the largest respect for Jochem and the valuable work he was doing to repair these forums within his limited powers. Unfortunately, his new powers have changed the situation completely, and I now think he is doing the forums much more harm than any good. Pity, and such a waste, because he is a most talented man, but it would seem that feeling like a cop has been too much for him. Although I shouldn't be so ungrateful: he hasn't censored me ... yet.

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