Just in case...

Mentor ,
Oct 01, 2009 Oct 01, 2009

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Just in case anyone from Adobe thinks these forums are getting better, are more accepted now that all the knowledgeable regulars have been driven off and the community that existed has been destroyed. This Forum still su

cks, its slow ugly and a huge space waster. The dialog in the forums has turned into a bunch of lazy people who can't be bothered to read the manual. All discussion about anything technical or advanced just doesn't exist. thanks Adobe.

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Advocate ,
Oct 02, 2009 Oct 02, 2009

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forums has turned into a bunch of lazy people

I'm not going to say that any post in this thread is right or wrong and I am NOT trying to offend anyone here (so don't turn this into any kind of argument or bashing against any of those in this topic).

But this is a good example of how the correspondence from each individual on here has went downhill (not in just this particular thread, but others):

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/500877?tstart=0

Now the response to try google was very plain and simple. But the OP did not have to go back saying that person was snobby, etc. for suggesting that.

It seems to me that we are getting more and more users on here with questions that are very simple and can indeed be answered with a google search and a few clicks of the mouse.

Perhaps it's the cartoony design that leads people to think that this forum is for totally new users who have no knowledge whatsoever on the computer art side of things. I can remember not so long ago when users would post questions asking simple questions (like how to open a photo in photoshop) and them being told to search google for tutorials and it was never ever blown out of proportion like it has been in many posts recently, it as usually responded to with a 'thank you'.

Perhaps newer forum members have been dealing with Customer Service and then sent here when they can't resolve their problem. And then that user (who is already ticked at Adobe) comes on here right off the bat with a bad attitude.

Again, no offense to anyone...this is just my general perception on what I have been noticing lately.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 02, 2009 Oct 02, 2009

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Hi Ozzwoman

On 10/1 a post appeared in the Forum Comments forum asking about an Order approval. Jochem replied to this by advising the user they were in the wrong forum and he even helpfully provided a link to the forum where he felt the question was a better fit. Ten minutes after Jochem replied, Ann chastises him and claims he was abrupt and unfriendly.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the link you pointed us to shows (what is to me anyway) a genuine unfriendly and abrupt response. What seems odd is that you apparently felt the OP shouldn't have come back and said the reply to simply "Google it" came off to them as being snobby. After looking at the thread I have to agree with the OP. It felt like a brush off. Like the respondent felt the OP was disrupting things and wasting everyone's time by asking a question. In my opinion, everyone should be entitled to ask a question and receive a helpful reply without fear of being pointed out or chastised.

In my own limited view of the forums I participate in, there have always been (and I suspect there will always be) the constant flow of seemingly inane and simple questions from new users. We all know the forums search is awful. Google is much better. It seems to me that too many of those here are losing sight of the fact that we were all new to the assorted products once. Some of us here talk of "elitism" and suddenly shift gears if a newbee asks what appears to the seasoned user to be a silly question.

I might suggest an alternate explanation for an uptick of "silly questions". In other threads a loss of "true experts" is being bemoaned. Maybe the uptick of "silly questions" is simply a result of an absence of elitist forum members that would otherwise intimidate new users. After all, if a new user is lurking and sees another  user ask what seems to some to be a silly question, then watch as they are publicly chastised, they aren't likely to ask whatever question they had, no?

Of course I can't speak for everyone, but as a seasoned forum user that has repeatedly and patiently answered the same "inane newbee questions" over and over and over, once in a while I make my own discoveries while providing answers to the same questions. So sure, the question may seem banal and not worthwhile, but if it actually helps a fellow human, have the forums been a success? To that person they have. Perhaps the answer to that silly question totally made their day. Their week or their month!

We all have to begin as a newbee. Who knows what experts and professionals will result (or not) totally based on something as simple as a courteous (or rude) reply in a silly forum. Like a rock tossed into still waters, you have no way of knowing where the ripples will travel and what may be affected as a result.

Food for thought... Rick

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Advocate ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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So what should Adobe do? Apart from changing the forum software.

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New Here ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

So what should Adobe do? Apart from changing the forum software.

Get rid of moderators such as you?

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Advocate ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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So who should moderate here? Can you give me some usernames?

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Advocate ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Ozpeter. May be too human for your taste.

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Advocate ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Jochem's status should be increased to the point where he can achieve the fixes he is able to create and get listened to by Adobe/Jive. I've said before (oh, forgot, got logged out while posting and couldn't be bothered) - I value Jochem's knowledge and ability in the technical realm hugely but he is temperamentally unsuited to being in charge of people. Give him the tools and incentives to fix whatever he can, which is probably most of it, but let's have a host with proven people-skills. I'd also like to see more of John C, who is unfailingly polite and courteous as well as having a sense of humour, plus he has (or used to have) some useful 'powers' and influence.


Two birds, one stone. A much improved atmosphere in here - if Oz could do that in the Lounge he can do it anywhere - and nonsenses like the 404 error, logging out while posting, whatever is wrong with email headers (don't use it, don't know) and other sillinesses zapped.

No more unqualified 'experts' with no powers and not the faintest clue how things work, ferrying notes 'round back' and wagging fingers. Let's put the round pegs in the round holes for once.

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Enthusiast ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

So who should moderate here? Can you give me some usernames?

Well, i'm not khaziranga, but the first question is, now that you're headhunting... what's the fee?

Nevermind... why don't you start a thread and see who the users would like? There have been some names – of past moderators who commanded a great deal of respect – mentioned in some threads... At least they seem far more together and balanced than the present lot of moderators who, i doubt, even know what the name / title means or implies. Nice post here on that, kind of drifted away though:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2278672#2278672

Anyway, you'll do as you see fit... Whether it fits or not!

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LEGEND ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Jochem, the way I interpreted the post from Khazi, the suggestion was to eliminate forums moderation completely.

I don't believe that's likely to happen or should really even be considered, but that's how I interpreted it.

Cheers... Rick

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LEGEND ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

Jochem, the way I interpreted the post from Khazi, the suggestion was to eliminate forums moderation completely.

From here it looks like he said, "Get rid of moderators such as you?"


Not what you twisted it to!

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LEGEND ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Hi John

Indeed he did say:

Get rid of moderators such as you.

That is a general statement and can mean a few different things.

  • It may mean that all moderators should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators with the name Jochem should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators that practice certain behaviors such as moderating should be discarded

I did preface what I said with  the way I interpreted the post. Only Khazi can say whether you were more correct or I was in our interpretations. Of course, as I bear a Community Expert badge near my name I might expect that the only interpretation by some here would be that I intentionally twisted the meaning. Geez

You know, the more I participate here the more I begin to wonder if I may have the whole reasoning behind forums and their usage wrong. I always felt they are intended to be a gathering place where different viewpoints could be discussed and shared. However, it seems that for some reason, in this particular forum, everything is interpreted as being combative and full of back handed insults. At least by some. I'm not sure why that is. It doesn't seem to be that way in any of the other forums.

I guess on some level it's quite simply because Adobe has a Community Expert badge near my name. LOL, perhaps that's why Dorothy has a target as her avatar! After all, it was my reply to Ann that you stated was a "long and rambling homily". Uh, excuse me, but it was a long post from her I was replying to. Yet you never mentioned her initial post as being a long and rambling homily. Then again, perhaps you didn't wish to have her sights aimed at you, and I fully understand that. She seems to be quite bitter and in all my encounters with her, she makes every effort to belittle and insult.

Guess I turned it into a homily, eh? Sorry 'bout that.

Rick

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LEGEND ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

You know, the more I participate here the more I begin to wonder if I may have the whole reasoning behind forums and their usage wrong. I always felt they are intended to be a gathering place where different viewpoints could be discussed and shared.

Most people only come in here to complain about the forums so naturally it is not all sweetness and light.


Like I said, you need to get into some of the forums I post in before you jump to conclusions.

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New Here ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

Most people only come in here to complain about the forums so naturally it is not all sweetness and light.

And, i believe that when they say something positive, their threads get locked as being irrelevant? Or some such? Or am i wrong?

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Participant ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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However, it seems that for some reason, in this particular forum, everything is interpreted as being combative and full of back handed insults. At least by some. I'm not sure why that is. It doesn't seem to be that way in any of the other forums.

There is something about the smug, sanctimonious, preachy style which you (and several other of your "Community Expert" pals) have adopted that is simply infuriating.

We never had to suffer from this nonsense in the former ADOBE Forums until you lot arrived and frankly, the input from the lot of you (combined with the ridiculously heavy-handed "Moderating" that has been going on here) is what triggers the response that you are getting to your posts.

And not only from me.

When highly esteemed , experienced and knowledgeable contributors (with a history of helping unstintingly in these Forums since their inception) is banned because he has the temerity to defend himself against the attacks by the spiteful and ignorant and you condone that sort of "Moderating" you have taken your new-found power too far.

None of you are any help here whatsoever and your badges should be redesigned to fit what you really are:

"Community Demolition Experts"

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Mentor ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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its interesting, in the old forum they were referred to as hosts.

now all of a sudden with the new software we have moderators.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Hi Buko

I realize I'm on dangerous ground today with offering how *I* might understand and perceive things, but here goes anyway.

If I see the word "Host", I'm likely to consider that the person being referred to is an actual Adobe employee. After all, you aren't likely to "Host" a party in a neighbor's home, no?

If I see the word "Moderator", it's more likely that I will interpret that as meaning the person being referred to may be an actual employee or a volunteer that has been appointed.

Okay, I have my quadruple layers of Nomex on today. Feel free to flame away!

Cheers... Rick

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Advocate ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Those with long experience of the WebX forums are used to the term 'host' as someone who may be an employee, but usually isn't. No-one had the title 'Moderator'. I understand that the MM forums had neither - they were obviously immaculately behaved Nevertheless I heard a lot of complaints about those forums, with very many people preferring to use a newsreader.


And 'hosts such as you' couldn't be clearer - it means hosts who either are you or resemble you.

On the other hand 'hosts, such as you' would mean all hosts, 'you' being an example.

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Participant ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Looks as if this bunch are now trying to ban me!

I tried to edit  my previous message and got a "Not Authorized to Post" message!

Wonderful — after I have been helping in these Forums since their inception and am a Photoshop and Bridge Beta Tester!

Adobe simply has to get rid of these "Moderators" before they destroy the Forums completely and, with no Customer Service anymore, purchasing totally unsupported software will become a doubtful proposition.

This is all so reminiscent of what happened at Quark XPress … they also tried to muzzle all criticism and dissent in their Forums and look where that got them?!!

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LEGEND ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Thanks for amusing me!

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

There is something about the smug, sanctimonious, preachy style which you (and several other of your "Community Expert" pals) have adopted that is simply infuriating.

I suppose that by simply acknowedging what cannot be changed and having a positive outlook on things it could be considered smug. If life hands me lemons, I'm gonna say wow! Lemons! Cool! Where's the sugar? Let's make some lemonade! Now, who's bringing the vodka?

I think really that's perhaps the root of the issue here. See, one of the tenants of the Community Experts program is to be helpful and courteous to the forum participants. We tend to view that everyone who posts is genuine and in need of help. Then we try to provide it. Sure, some are angry and some complain about bugs in the software. That's fine but not where we prefer to focus. We provide workarounds. It's unfortunate that a positive attitude infuriates you. But I'm not planning on changing that anytime soon.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

We never had to suffer from this nonsense in the former ADOBE Forums until you lot arrived and frankly, the input from the lot of you (combined with the ridiculously heavy-handed "Moderating" that has been going on here) is what triggers the response that you are getting to your posts.

Only in this forum. Where we discuss forum issues. You have made it very clear that one of the "issues" with the new Adobe forums is that you have Community Experts participating. So here's an eye opener for you. Sit down and prepare yourself because it will likely be quite a shocker! There have likely been Community Experts among you all along. Likely in the former forums software there was no way to identify that and perhaps now it's in your face a bit because of the badging involved. I suppose you might call it your dirty little secret.

I know you feel the moderating in this, the forum comments forum has been heavy handed. Has it also been occurring in the forums where you hang out? I suspect it has or you wouldn't be complaining. So if that's the case and you feel it is too strict, why aren't you addressing it with the moderator there? Or is the moderator there also Jochem as well so you are dealing with him here?

See, you speak of things gallng you and of elitism. Then you turn around and speak in generalizations that ALL Community Experts are inept and destroying things. The "real experts" have all left the building. You act as if only the Photoshop forum (only one of Adobe's 80+ products) was ever worth visiting. And that, my friend, is what *I* consider being elitist.

Quite simply it galls ME that you appear to like to lump people into general categories that aren't worth your time. Everyone holds equal value. I've had an "inane" question from a newbee teach me things I'd never have learned about the Adobe software I use. Simply because of the way they asked the question that made me think in a new way about it. Things that an expert user would likely scoff at and claim was impossible because they never elected to think of it in that way. I've seen it happen myself.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

When highly esteemed , experienced and knowledgeable contributors (with a history of helping unstintingly in these Forums since their inception) is banned because he has the temerity to defend himself against the attacks by the spiteful and ignorant and you condone that sort of "Moderating" you have taken your new-found power too far.

Once again you speak in broad generalities. I personally have never banned anyone! Once again you seem incapable of differentiating between a volunteer recognized by Adobe and Adobe Employees themselves.

Sure, we may recommend to Adobe that they review someone we think worthy of banning. But the decision to ban ultiimately is made by Adobe themselves. Only after reviewing things. Based on what I've seen from Adobe, they don't take it lightly and there has to be some serious things done to warrant banning.

I'm guessing here that you are referring once again to Ramón? (do I get extra credit for finding the diacriticals?)

Cheers... Rick

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Participant ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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I really canot be bothered to answer your latest diatribe which, as always with everything that you write, is so sanctimonious and smug that it just makes me sick!

You are so incredibly self-satisfied that you seem unable to understand that it is possibly your attitude, your postings and indeed your very presence here that is engendering the fury which is being expressed.

We neither need, nor want, your input.

Yes, you have succeeded very well in DEMOLISHING the wonderful Community which existed in the former ADOBE Forums before your arrival on the scene.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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LOL

tmp2.gif

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

We neither need, nor want, your input.

My input is only in the forum comments area. I've never posted in the forums you are claiming have been destroyed.

Looks like you weren't banned either. You just don't understand that once someone has replied to your post you can't edit it.

Have a happy day... Rick

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Participant ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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You just don't understand that once someone has replied to your post you can't edit it.

Oh yes, I understand that perfectly well but no new post had yet appeared while I was trying to edit.

Just that slow, incompetent Jive software I suppose.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Yeah, but with Computers, even though a reply might not be present at the moment you look, one may appear but a nanosecond later.

I hear they are quite speedy these days.

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New Here ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

Hi John

Indeed he did say:

Get rid of moderators such as you.

That is a general statement and can mean a few different things.

  • It may mean that all moderators should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators with the name Jochem should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators that practice certain behaviors such as moderating should be discarded

I did preface what I said with  the way I interpreted the post. Only Khazi can say whether you were more correct or I was in our interpretations. Of course, as I bear a Community Expert badge near my name I might expect that the only interpretation by some here would be that I intentionally twisted the meaning. Geez

You know, the more I participate here the more I begin to wonder if I may have the whole reasoning behind forums and their usage wrong. I always felt they are intended to be a gathering place where different viewpoints could be discussed and shared. However, it seems that for some reason, in this particular forum, everything is interpreted as being combative and full of back handed insults. At least by some. I'm not sure why that is. It doesn't seem to be that way in any of the other forums.

I guess on some level it's quite simply because Adobe has a Community Expert badge near my name. LOL, perhaps that's why Dorothy has a target as her avatar! After all, it was my reply to Ann that you stated was a "long and rambling homily". Uh, excuse me, but it was a long post from her I was replying to. Yet you never mentioned her initial post as being a long and rambling homily. Then again, perhaps you didn't wish to have her sights aimed at you, and I fully understand that. She seems to be quite bitter and in all my encounters with her, she makes every effort to belittle and insult.

Guess I turned it into a homily, eh? Sorry 'bout that.

Rick

You're a great one for twisting things... Interpreting, implying and inferring what was never said.

I did say, "Get rid of moderators such as you?" And that means exactly what it says. It does not mean:

  • It may mean that all moderators should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators with the name Jochem should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators that practice certain behaviors such as moderating should be discarded

So kindly stop twisting statements to your convenience by interpreting, implying and inferring statements and meanings that were never intended.

To quote you, "Geez".

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New Here ,
Oct 03, 2009 Oct 03, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

Captiv8r wrote:

Jochem, the way I interpreted the post from Khazi, the suggestion was to eliminate forums moderation completely.

From here it looks like he said, "Get rid of moderators such as you?"


Not what you twisted it to!

Too right John! No wonder there are such hassles in this forum... When Community Experts start twisting things and implying statements that were never meant nor intended!

Sheesh!!

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