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Moderation and Thread Moving

Contributor ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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I expressed a concern about moving thread from the Forum Comments (this thread:  http://forums.adobe.com/message/2223352#2223352 ) to another area of the forums.  The link still resides in the Forum Comments list.  I suggested that IF such a move were going to be made, folks should be aware that they are being taken AWAY from the Forum Comments area.  I don't feel this is an unreasonable consideration.  Yet, my entire post was summarily deleted without any mention that I had even existed.

Will someone please tell me why alerting the viewer that they are going to another area of the forum is such a heinous crime as to be fully deleted without comment?

hopper

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Mentor ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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Don't want to be bothered with the effort or no time to do so.

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Enthusiast ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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where is my post stating unacceptable moderation of the thread where jochem (spelling?) abused a lost poster? or is evedence of such abuse being summarily hidden? must be nice to have that kind of power.

A customer is the most important visitor on our premises, he is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption in our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider in our business. He is part of it. We are not doing him a favor by serving him. He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so.
Mahatma Gandhi

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Enthusiast ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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it was in this thread:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2220022#2220022

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Enthusiast ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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and why does an unexpected error occur when i try to report jochem's post to that lost poster as abuse with the following comment:

a moderator should not be allowed to abuse a lost poster in this manner. that same moderator should not be allowed to delete posts pointing out improper behavior. this kind of moderation, where adobe removes posts critical to it's customer service looks very VERY bad to the industry and will reflect poorly on adobe.

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Advocate ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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dave milbut wrote on 9/3/2009 3:39 PM:

and why does an unexpected error occur when i try to report jochem's post to that lost poster as abuse with the following comment:

a moderator should not be allowed to abuse a lost poster in this manner. that same moderator should not be allowed to delete posts pointing out improper behavior. this kind of moderation, where adobe removes posts critical to it's customer service looks very VERY bad to the industry and will reflect poorly on adobe.

Your comment is longer then 255 characters.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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... longer than!

Don't worry, you're not the only expert making this mistake. 

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Advocate ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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greenjumpyone wrote on 9/3/2009 3:07 PM:

I expressed a concern about moving thread from the Forum Comments (this thread: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2223352#2223352 ) to another area of the forums. The link still resides in the Forum Comments list. I suggested that IF such a move were going to be made, folks should be aware that they are being taken AWAY from the Forum Comments area.

That notification is in the second place in the thread.

Will someone please tell me why alerting the viewer that they are going to another area of the forum is such a heinous crime as to be fully deleted without comment?

Notifying users isn't, that is why the notification is still in the

second place in that thread.

Discussing moderation in threads about other subjects instead of

starting a dedicated thread in the Forum comments forum is.

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Mentor ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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But some access the forums through a web browser  such as Firefox , or opera, iCab, OmniWeb, Safari. Not an al in one such as Seamonkey and there fore don't get the email notifications.

And if they are not aware of the email notices,  the notices may go in their mail/news clients Junk mail file.  And they would never see them.

The proper thing to to do is to give notice the thread is being  moved. a Perfect exmaple was just posted eith last night or this morning in the Acrobat forum. an Adobe employee a a woman, moved a thread but stated she was moving thread to another forum because the question was beyond the scope of the forum the poster was currentl in. I'm sure others that frequent here and there as well can identify the post I m speaking to and give the message indetifier for everyone to read.

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Contributor ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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Then why are you NOT telling folks they are going to another area of the forum?

"You posted to an old thread that is about a different issue that was also in the wrong forum. Therefore I split your message off to the correct forum and gave it a name fitting the subject."


This is not telling folks where they went.  I thought it was still in the Forum Comments area.  I am not an idiot.  I can find my way around boards, but can you truthfully say that you did not cause confusion with this move of yours?  For all I knew, you had moved the thread to another location, AND had left it in the forum comments.  God forbid that a viewer might expect to see it where they FIRST saw it and follow along.

Jochem,  this power does seem to have gone to your head.  My post was EXACTLY where it should have been.  I was directed to a thread OUTSIDE of the list from which I clicked.  I was confused as to why I was in a very different place in the forum.  That WAS the place for that question.  Because you and your powerful delete button felt it wasn't doesn't mean you are RIGHT.  I have resisted complaining loudly about deletions, thread moving etc.  What I asked was why wasn't the viewer TOLD THEY WERE GOING SOMEWHERE ELSE.  And you saw fit to delete it WITHOUT comment.

And then you have the gall to suggest *I* did something wrong!

Yeah, I am ticked off.  I have NOT been a major irritant to you or this forum and a little bit of grace, decency, tolerance etc should be granted.  Not to mention, what about the new user, who would have NO IDEA where they went and how they got there.

geesh ....

edited by hopper for a typo

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Advocate ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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greenjumpyone wrote on 9/3/2009 4:17 PM:

Then why are you NOT telling folks they are going to another area of the forum?

"I split your message off to the correct forum" is telling people the

message went to a new forum. Or do you mean it should have mentioned

which area?

This is not telling folks where they went. I thought it was still in the Forum Comments area. I am not an idiot. I can find my way around boards, but can you truthfully say that you did not cause confusion with is move of yours? For all I knew, you had moved the thread to another location, AND had left it in the forum comments.

Then I would have written "copied".

If you have suggestions for another text shoot.

Jochem, this power does seem to have gone to your head. My post was EXACTLY where it should have been. I was directed to a thread OUTSIDE of the list from which I clicked. I was confused as to why I was in a very different place in the forum. That WAS the place for that question. Because you and your powerful delete button felt it wasn't doesn't mean you are RIGHT.

What is right is not some objective, moral truth (if morals could ever

be objective). What is right is determined by a consensus of hosts /

moderators / experts / forum related employees.

I have resisted complaining loudly about deletions, thread moving etc. What I asked was why wasn't the viewer TOLD THEY WERE GOING SOMEWHERE ELSE. And you saw fit to delete it WITHOUT comment.

The only place appropriate for discussing moderation issues is in

dedicated threads in the Forum comments forum. Not in other forums, not

in threads about other problems.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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What is right is not some objective, moral truth (if morals could ever be objective). What is right is determined by a consensus of hosts / moderators / experts / forum related employees.

Erm, don't the humble users have a say?

It appears we really are in a dictatorship here.

Remember the Gandhi quote?   No?   I thought not!

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Valorous Hero ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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Hi John

John Joslin wrote:

Erm, don't the humble users have a say?

But that's the issue here, no? You and a few others are making assumptions on the affected users' behalf. I don't believe I've seen a user yet that posted here by mistake come back to report they were lost and how awful it was that their post was moved.

Remember, they are about as lost as they can be to begin with because they posted in the wrong forum from the start.

Cheers... Rick

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Contributor ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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RoboWizard wrote:

Hi John

John Joslin wrote:

Erm, don't the humble users have a say?

But that's the issue here, no? You and a few others are making assumptions on the affected users' behalf. I don't believe I've seen a user yet that posted here by mistake come back to report they were lost and how awful it was that their post was moved.

Remember, they are about as lost as they can be to begin with because they posted in the wrong forum from the start.

Cheers... Rick

OMG!  Rick,  are you kidding me?  Look, even if they OP doesn't come back, what about the REST of us?  What, we don't count?  I *am* one of the affected users!  MY POST was deleted.  *I* was sent to another area of the forum WITHOUT knowing I would be leaving the Forum Comments area.  I did NOT abuse anyone, I did NOT use foul language, I simply asked why was I in a different area without being made aware I was LEAVING the Forum Comments area.

god, gimme a break you guys.  Get over yourselves!  I did NOTHING wrong and now I am being questioned about "moral truth" etc.  It was a freggin post that didn't cause any harm or pain to anyone, except me when it got deleted!

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Valorous Hero ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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Hi there

As far as the "rest of us", I see your name less often than four or five others here, but geez! Most of the folks complaining about this are already aware of what forums to post in. I'm not pointing out any single individuals here, but the appearance seems to come off as most of the posts are made only to incite Jochem to moderate, lock and delete the threads.

According to your user status, you have posted 1,050 times and have been participating since April 21, 2005. Certainly that's long enough to know what forum category befits a specific question. It's also long enough and enough posts that you, as a regular forum user, should have been able to easily determine that your post had been moved if someone moved it.

I never questioned anyone WRT moral truth. The only comment I made was in reference to moving posts made by lost users. Mostly I just observe the train wreck that is the Forum Comments forum. Largely it's amusing to see the different personalities and behaviors. I only moderate and deal with two of Adobe's many different forums.

Cheers... Rick

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Advocate ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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greenjumpyone wrote on 9/3/2009 5:45 PM:

I am one of the affected users! MY POST was deleted.

Because it was in the wrong place. This one is in the right place so it

isn't deleted.

I was sent to another area of the forum WITHOUT knowing I would be leaving the Forum Comments area. I did NOT abuse anyone, I did NOT use foul language, I simply asked why was I in a different area without being made aware I was LEAVING the Forum Comments area.

And if you had asked that in a new thread instead of posting it in the

thread from the OP about another topic, you would have received an

answer and that is it. (Or preferably, if you had just used the search.)

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Advocate ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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RoboWizard wrote:

Hi John

John Joslin wrote:

Erm, don't the humble users have a say?

But that's the issue here, no? You and a few others are making assumptions on the affected users' behalf. I don't believe I've seen a user yet that posted here by mistake come back to report they were lost and how awful it was that their post was moved.

Remember, they are about as lost as they can be to begin with because they posted in the wrong forum from the start.

Cheers... Rick

lol Maybe they haven't come back for a good reason--think about what the definition of "lost" implies.

But also, I think you're wrong.  I remember new users other than the regulars here saying how they were confused by the actions of mods.  I'm sure I put up an "I told you so" but I'm also sure it would have been deleted or ignored...

Obey the forum thought police.  Violators will be locked, deleted and banned.

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Advocate ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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Ansury wrote:

But also, I think you're wrong.  I remember new users other than the regulars here saying how they were confused by the actions of mods. 

Your argument would be a lot more convincing if it went somewhat like this:

  1. I searched for every message that contained thw word "moving".
  2. Then I refined it to messages from Jochem van Dieten.
  3. Then I refined it to search in all forums except the "Forum comments" forum.
  4. Of the resulting threads, in X the OP expresed thanks and in Y the OP expressed confsion.
  5. Therefore in Z percent of the cases the move added to the confusion.

That is the kind of argument that people would pay attention to. (It is also the statistic I used to monitor myelf before adding code to unsubscribe automatically from threads I moved, so I don't expect the value of Z to help your case.)

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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Advocate ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

Ansury wrote:

But also, I think you're wrong.  I remember new users other than the regulars here saying how they were confused by the actions of mods. 

Your argument would be a lot more convincing if it went somewhat like this:

  1. I searched for every message that contained thw word "moving".
  2. Then I refined it to messages from Jochem van Dieten.
  3. Then I refined it to search in all forums except the "Forum comments" forum.
  4. Of the resulting threads, in X the OP expresed thanks and in Y the OP expressed confsion.
  5. Therefore in Z percent of the cases the move added to the confusion.

That is the kind of argument that people would pay attention to. (It is also the statistic I used to monitor myelf before adding code to unsubscribe automatically from threads I moved, so I don't expect the value of Z to help your case.)

We're talking about Jiveware here, what you're asking is either virtually impossible or would take hours to do correctly.

I still suspect Z will add to my case, because if even one person is confused by this, you're wrong.  Because you can avoid ALL confusion by simply posting a link to the correct forum with a polite message.

For every person that complains, 10 more don't say anything.  Given that we have probably 5 to 10 people in this forum alone complaining about this, that translates to between 50 and 100 people who hate it. lol

Obey the forum thought police.  Violators will be locked, deleted and banned.

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Advocate ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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Ansury wrote:

jochemd wrote:

Your argument would be a lot more convincing if it went somewhat like this:
  1. I searched for every message that contained thw word "moving".
  2. Then I refined it to messages from Jochem van Dieten.
  3. Then I refined it to search in all forums except the "Forum comments" forum.
  4. Of the resulting threads, in X the OP expresed thanks and in Y the OP expressed confsion.
  5. Therefore in Z percent of the cases the move added to the confusion.

That is the kind of argument that people would pay attention to.

We're talking about Jiveware here, what you're asking is either virtually impossible or would take hours to do correctly.

It takes less then 2 minutes. Although I left out step 3 because step 2 already reduced the number of hits so much that I filtered the rest by hand.

But you are providing an excellent example of why people have such a hard time convincing moderators to change policy. Handwaving is not an argument.

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Advocate ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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Curt it may be standard operating procedure in any forum you've seen, but most forum software at least implements it correctly, doesn't have bugs, and most of the other major cons I listed in the pros vs cons thread don't apply.  It only applies to this crap buggy forum software.

jochemd wrote:

It takes less then 2 minutes. Although I left out step 3 because step 2 already reduced the number of hits so much that I filtered the rest by hand.

But you are providing an excellent example of why people have such a hard time convincing moderators to change policy. Handwaving is not an argument.

Oh I get it now, you're just joking.  You must be, because doing what you said gives 307 results and skimming those none that I saw seemed to have anything to do with "moving" the thread.  You must be a robot if you checked all 307 of those results in 2 minutes... 

I don't think the search even works right doing this, so I don't know what special software you're using to search this mess.

I give up, do what you want, ignore the rest of us here... we're all just stupid and totally wrong about this anyway.  What do users who have been here for years know that new ones don't? Pfft!

Obey the forum thought police.  Violators will be locked, deleted and banned.

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Advisor ,
Sep 03, 2009 Sep 03, 2009

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Ansury wrote:

Curt it may be standard operating procedure in any forum you've seen, but most forum software at least implements it correctly, doesn't have bugs, and most of the other major cons I listed in the pros vs cons thread don't apply.  It only applies to this crap buggy forum software.

OK, I agree with you there for the most part.   But I personally offset most of those issues with a note to the OP telling them I moved the post with a link. The OP has always been grateful and the fora dont pile up off topic posts.   In the land I host; it works well and as far as i can tell everyone is cool with it. 

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Mentor ,
Sep 04, 2009 Sep 04, 2009

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Curt Wrigley wrote:   OK, I agree with you there for the most part.  But I personally offset most of those issues with a note to the OP telling them I moved the post with a link. The OP has always been grateful and the fora don't pile up off topic posts.   In the land I host; it works well and as far as i can tell everyone is cool with it.

Okay now educate Jockem of that it is good form to notify at least the OP that a thread is being moved.

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Advocate ,
Sep 04, 2009 Sep 04, 2009

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If they notice the PM, fine, but you do realize how non-obvious those things are right?  You could easily overlook them.  The whole thread-moving thing is just implemented terribly, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

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