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OK, here goes.
For a long time there has been little or no evidence of any hosts, moderators or Adobe employees in here. John C and kanguyen make very welcome appearances from time to time, and both show an immaculate attitude, but little happens to improve things - although thanks to those who made a proper sticky about the use of this forum.
We have been relieved of a host who was allegedly a Community Expert in 'Creative Suite', but had apparently fulfilled none of the criteria for a Community Expert - such as being an expert in something. Nor did this person have more than a very wobbly grasp of how the forums actually work. With zero credibility, said person annoyed people by moralising and lecturing at them.
So now we have a pretty bolshy group of people who are sitting about, kicking their heels, hoping against hope that someone will sort out this buggy, defective software. Many have made very detailed, constructive suggestions and requests, others have gone to the trouble of making work-arounds. In the meantime they are chatting amongst themselves, which is normal behaviour for bored people in a waiting room who are still hoping for something to happen.
There are people who have used the WebX forums for years and years and appreciated them, even with their faults. These people are still grumpy about being shifted onto something they see as much worse. So there are bad moods around.
In my personal opinion, there have been quite a lot of posts, probably some of them mine, that are unnecessarily off-topic, sarcastic and hostile. A bit of a tug on the reins would be no bad thing in my view.
However, moderating a group such as the one gathered here is not easy. To be successful, it is necessary to show good humour, a sense of humour, a willingness to explain actions, and a degree of courtesy and respect, even to those who are not behaving particularly well at the time. Oz was a shining example, and brought a considerable degree of order to the Lounge (an even wilder corner of the West ) without antagonising anyone - well, maybe just the one serial reprobate who is unreachable anyway.
The proverbial 'firm but fair' - and a very nice bloke.
To suddenly begin mass deletions, without showing any of these qualities, may well be counter-productive.
For me, Jochem has a head start, since I believe he is the possessor of a minor-planet-sized brain and the skills to sort this mess out in minutes if he were given the chance. Good start. Now we need a better balance between discouragement of excessive pointless and snarky posts, information about what progress is being made / might be made / won't be made on forum fixes and improvements, individual help like JC has always provided for people who have weird stuff going on with their account, and a degree of visible humanity - please - to gain the consent of those being moderated.
I still can't get past the idea that "discussion" was invited and yet at the same time not needed.
Jochem,
I don't understand how you can be so hard-headed and stubborn! I do understand that when we, any of us, do something, we generally feel we are correct in our actions. BUT that does NOT mean we cannot learn from others and see that perhaps what we *thought* was correct, is just possibly slightly off-center from being correct. One must be willing to see that there *are* other ways to look at
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Ramón G Castañeda wrote:
John Joslin wrote:
The new moderator's style may well eliminate the idle chit-chat but it will also extinguish the community spirit.
JJ,
That's like saying that the nuclear bomb "extinguished the community spirit" in Hiroshima. Heck, there's no community left any more!
If you believe that then you have a very narrow viewpoint. Most of the forums here maintain a friendly, helpful attitude which attracts community (even if the participants dont like the new jive version of the fora). But there are a few forums here that maintain a very unfriendly attitude where customers new and old dare not ask questions. I dont think I need to point out which ones they are. Left unchecked; new customers will be driven away; not by the rules or the hosts, but by a few people who routinely dispresect others.
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Curt Wrigley wrote:
…If you believe that…
Of course I believe that, why else would I have typed it? Duh!
There's no community left because the heavy-caliber users have left. The questions being asked now are at an unconscionably low level, being asked by folks who've never even opened the application's user guide. Teaching others how to use the application is beyond the scope of this forum or any other forum.
Curt Wrigley wrote:
…then you have a very narrow viewpoint.
Just as easily, I could accuse you of being narrow minded.
My viewpoint is not narrow, it is focused, which is a very different thing. But I'm not surprised you don't grasp the difference, tuxedo boy.
Regardless of how you or others may view the forum users, the naked fact remains that it is a hassle to get in here, stayed logged in and navigate the site—for nothing. This has become a cemetery with a few zombies plodding around.
This is a remarkable show of incompetence by Adobe and its minions.
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Thank you Ramon for re-enforcing my point before you leave.
Goodbye.
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You see, tuxedo boy, your post #83 is a perfect example of some of you people not grasping the fact that, as Adobe representatives or delegates of such, you are not permitted to post in that tone.
If Adobe was a functioning, well-oiled enterprise like IBM, Microsoft or Ford, reporting the behavior of several of the host/moderators here would result in their immediate removal and possibly—likely—the firing of their Adobe supervisor who tolerates them. Unfortunately, Adobe is far from that. It is a decaying, elephantine, unresponsive, gargantuan and disorganized bureaucracy that is slowly but inexorably crumbling. That decay affects software development as well, not just customer service.
It's not just the forums going to pot, it's the entire gamut of customer service, customer support and it's reflecting in the applications too.
You have zero moral authority now. Go preach to someone who respects you. Your efforts are wasted here.
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There's no community left because the heavy-caliber users have left. The questions being asked now are at an unconscionably low level, being asked by folks who've never even opened the application's user guide. Teaching others how to use the application is beyond the scope of this forum or any other forum.
This is absolutely spot on. Where are the serious industry users, giving sound practical advice about real life problems in the publishing business? Or the top professional photographers giving freely of their talent and experience.
Gone!
Most of the questions in the Photoshop forums are so elementary that a 10 year-old with a copy of the help files could answer them.
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David_Powers wrote:
It's perfectly clear that a lot of people don't like the new system, and I'll be quite frank: there is a lot not to like. The fact is that this is the system we have got. I have no idea whether there's any chance of going back to the previous separate Macromedia and Adobe forums, but I doubt it very much.
Which is a very sad thought.
David_Powers wrote:
Adobe is a huge organization; and huge organizations are slow, bureaucratic creatures.
and they seemed to have turned a blind eye to the problems with the Jive forums. They probably *did* shell out a lot of money for this and for that very reason, this mess should have been cleaned up MUCH FASTER.
David_Powers wrote:
It's perfectly clear that a lot of people don't like the new system, and I'll be quite frank: there is a lot not to like. The fact is that this is the system we have got. I have no idea whether there's any chance of going back to the previous separate Macromedia and Adobe forums, but I doubt it very much.
I don't think folks necessarily think that the forums should be broken back up, but they don't want a broken forum either.
David_Powers wrote:
We've lost a lot of good friends and helpful people in the Dreamweaver forums, but the volume of posting hasn't diminished;
and what of the *quality* of the answers?
David_Powers wrote:
In spite of the problems with the forum software, many product forums are vibrant. We've lost a lot of good friends and helpful people in the Dreamweaver forums, but the volume of posting hasn't diminished; and new people have emerged as useful contributors.
and the really sad, disheartening thing about this is that the loss of the helpful, insightful, highly knowledgeable contributors seems to have been seen as collateral damage. Many of those people literally helped make Adobe who they are today by way of these forums. And Adobe just doesn't seem to care.
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Hi all
I think David makes some very valid points. I don't understand why it's a sad thought that you can't return to the days of MM and Adobe forums. After all, how often do you climb into your car and drive to a new destination while constantly watching where you have been? You can't. You have to look ahead and deal with what you have, no?
So far, all the chatter I've witnessed since deciding to subscribe to this forum has been about the perception of a heavy handed moderator. I've seen name calling and other very bad behavior from a variety of individuals. It seems foreign to me. I so seldom see this in the forums I monitor day to day. Sure, tempers flare from time to time, but nothing on the scale of this. It's quite shocking. Kind of like watching an episode of COPS.
My observation thus far has been to conclude that by and large the activity occurring in this particular forum has an unusually high noise to signal ratio. If what I've seen so far is indicative of the past activity, it strikes me that Adobe may have intentionally turned a bit of a deaf ear on the commentary occurring here.
It's my firm belief that all of us (customers, participants, moderators, Adobe) are doing the best we know how to do with what we are given. There is always a learning curve involved with anything. So if we all take a breath and exercise a bit of patience and understanding with one another, things will hopefully improve.
My thought is that if the unneccessary chatter and rudeness calms a bit, perhaps Adobe will take more of an interest in what's going on. And speaking as one who participates in forums all day every day helping others, the more specific we can be the better off we will be. For example, it's not helpful whatsoever to Adobe to stomp in here and scream the forums suck. We need to tell them in specific terms what we don't like.
And here's something to think about. What if we also listed what we DO like about them? Personally, I think it's been infinitely more helpful to be able to post some attachments and screen captures. Sometimes you can see something immediately that would have been totally lost in translation from a pure verbiage standpoint and would have required several back and forth posts. So that aspect has been one of my favorites.
Sincerely... Rick
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greenjumpyone wrote:
and what of the *quality* of the answers?
As always, you get a mixture of answers. Some excellent, some not so good.
But if you're concerned about the quality of answers, spend more time in the product forums helping raise the standard. Just gathering here complaining about everything going downhill isn't going to improve it.
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And if anyone doesn't want to attract negative comments, marching in and throwing their weight about is not a productive course of action.
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Kath-H wrote:
…if anyone doesn't want to attract negative comments, marching in and throwing their weight about is not a productive course of action.
Very well said, Kath.
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I'm not posting, or replying, to any one in particular. Just my thoughts on various things that have been said. First of all, I do feel as if those that keep repeating the same complaints get tiresome for everyone reading them. On the other hand these complaints have been going on for month after month and still little improvement in these forums. Still slow, still can't log in at times, still getting logged out when trying to make a post or reply.
To all moderators and experts: First off, a thank you. And that is a sincere thank you. But at the same time, it seems to us that this has become a take it or leave it situation for the users of the forums. At least it appears that is what you are saying.
You express this concern about attracting new people to the forums. Well, what about the long term users? Have we out lived our usefulness so no longer count? All of us want new members here. Do you not see how the majority here try to be helpful to them?
Someone replied to "greenjumpyone" that if she wants the forums to be better SHE should make an effort to come here and help more often. I thought that was a pretty bold request considering how much harder it is now just to log in and make a reply.
One moderator said he will make decisions, in some cases, based upon if it is a new member or a long time member. And how exactly is that to be determined. By the user profile? How reliable is that. Profile IDs get changed for no reason. Names get changed. According to my profile I got here in Apr. of '09. Better add a few years to be accurate.
It has been brought up that instead of being critical just say what you like or dislike. Those things have been stated over and over AND OVER by many of us, to no avail. NOBODY LISTENS.
When I see the likes of John Joslin and Dave Milbut being criticized here I lose all hope. Those two, and many others, that now are gone, have contributed so much to these forums that Adobe should be paying them.
This was a truly great forum. We, the users, did not make this change. Adobe did. Some say blame Jive. If Adobe picked Jive then the fault still lies with Adobe. One thing is for sure, we did not ruin this forum. We loved it too much.
Q
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I t hink Q deserves the points for this thread!
hopper
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Q Photo wrote:
When I see the likes of John Joslin and Dave Milbut being criticized here I lose all hope. Those two, and many others, that now are gone, have contributed so much to these forums that Adobe should be paying them.
This was a truly great forum. We, the users, did not make this change. Adobe did. Some say blame Jive. If Adobe picked Jive then the fault still lies with Adobe. One thing is for sure, we did not ruin this forum. We loved it too much.
Q
Beautifully put Q. Not just the para i've quoted in my reply but the whole post.
However, over and above all else, the bit i'm quoting from Q is the crux of the issue. Adobe (and / or their extensions) are blaming us for the noise to signal ratios and all sorts of other garbage. The point as Q says is:
1/ Pre April 2009.... all hunky dory and everyone coexisting... web users as well as NNTP users. I never saw any hassles there as some people claim. For DW and PS it was NNTP. For Illustrator it was Web. Why? <shrug> It worked for me... the WebX was fast and you were taken to the first unread post in a thread. For DW and PS, the sheer volume of posts made NNTP easier and more relevant.
2/ Post April 2009. 'Nuff said.
The fault clearly is not with the users... Therefore... it must lie elsewhere... no?
Cheers...
(The other) JJ
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Crossed my mind - but I wasn't ready to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Me neither; he eschewed the winkie after all!
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I wrote "If you believe my moderation is not fair, I welcome discussion." Obviously I believe my moderation is fair and not in need of discussion.
Wow. dave, I hope you are right in that it's an attempt at dry humor, because if it's not ... whoa.
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Q Photo wrote:
What I believe to be legitimate reasons for deleting posts or locking threads are Spam & Profanity. Name calling is not really reason to lock a thread.
Depends on the circumstances. For many things I tend to give newbies a pass while I hold people who have been here longer to a higher standard. If somebody with a DreamWeaver problem posts his first post ever here instead of the DreamWeaver forum, I move it. When somebody who knows better does so, I lock it. When somebody tries a subtle (or not) dig at me in this thread, I am far less likely to do something about it then if it is about somebody else or if it is in a thread about a different subject.
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than
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jochemd wrote:
I hold people who have been here longer to a higher standard.
Then if people that have been here longer have a problem with you, it is valid. You should pay attention, and learn not delete their constructive criticism even if it includes a jab at you of some other host for acting badly. Like I said before this Jived Up forum has run off all the good hosts who everyone respected. Nobody respects you.
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And while I do realize the inflammatory nature of that question, I still consider the conclusion I reached valid.
You don't know dave. Your conclusion is literally impossible in his case. It's a misuse of your powers to insult people but delete any breath of criticism towards yourself.
To say you welcome discussion, then reject it because you don't think any discussion of your moderating style can possibly be entertained is horrendously arrogant.
You don't get hosting powers to be one of an elite who may not be criticised.
Your considerable skills do not seem to include personal interaction. I would very much like to see you exercise them in beneficial ways, like the redesign of the FAQ forum. Your confrontational hosting style is and will be counter productive. Control-freakery has its place, but please exercise it on improving these defective forums, human beings won't wear it.
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jochemd wrote:
5. I deleted a thread in which the originator of thread 4 started name-calling.
There was no name calling... If the person in question had a name not easily rememberable – by me – i fail to see how it is name calling... Perhaps, i should have checked the fora for his real name... but <shrug>.
In any event, you could well have remedied the situation by spelling out the name and asking me to kindly use the correct name in future. That is 'Moderation'. A behaviour that is meant to be practised by a 'Moderator'. Your high-handed actions are definitely not those of a Moderator. They are high-handed and your tone is pompous. Definitely not conducive to be respected as a Moderator.
If you wish to delete this post kindly go ahead. You have my full permission.
PS: Captiv8r shows, far more, the qualities of a good moderator.
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JayJhabrix wrote:
In any event, you could well have remedied the situation by spelling out the name and asking me to kindly use the correct name in future.
I could have. I didn't. I will continue not to do so in the future. I am after all a poor, heavy handed host.
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jochemd wrote:
I could have. I didn't. I will continue not to do so in the future. I am after all a poor, heavy handed host.
You say that as if you are proud of it!
I will make no further comment.
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I could have. I didn't. I will continue not to do so in the future. I am after all a poor, heavy handed host.
Now, sir,in another post (in the Lounge), you said:
If you believe my moderation is not fair, I welcome discussion. Just start a new thread in the Forum comments forum and explain what I should do differently.
You have been given a suggestion as to how you could do things differently, and in response, you say you will not. I must say that this is not terribly impressive.
To my list of things that (IMO) make you a poor moderator, I will now add that you are childish (IMO), and that you jump to conclusions (about Dave, about the misspelling of a name). I am sure other things will occur to me as time goes on and you alienate more and more people.
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Fr. Watson wrote:
I will now add that you are childish (IMO)
You left out pompous – i feel... so would that be 'childishly pompous' or 'pompously childish'? The latter me thinks....
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Fr. Watson wrote:
You have been given a suggestion as to how you could do things differently, and in response, you say you will not. I must say that this is not terribly impressive.
I haven't heard any terribly impressive arguments either.
If you check back on the different invitations I sent out for a discussion on moderation, I said we could discuss moderation policies or moderation decisions, and I welcome a discussion on moderation fairness, Which arguments on these subjects have been presented that shoud impress me? Has any argument been presented at all that I should allow discussions on moderation to take over other threads? According to which compelling argument should I allow name-calling?
Instead, there have been plenty of messages in this thread on style and respect. I hadn't really intended to discuss that just yet, but considering the lack of arguments on the rest we kind of went that direction anyway. Though for input on moderation style I am primarily looking at the hints and nudges I get from other hosts (plenty of who are quietly reading this forum / thread).