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Moderation in this forum

Advocate ,
Aug 06, 2009 Aug 06, 2009

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OK, here goes.


For a long time there has been little or no evidence of any hosts, moderators or Adobe employees in here. John C and kanguyen make very welcome appearances from time to time, and both show an immaculate attitude, but little happens to improve things - although thanks to those who made a proper sticky about the use of this forum.


We have been relieved of a host who was allegedly a Community Expert in 'Creative Suite', but had apparently fulfilled none of the criteria for a Community Expert - such as being an expert in something. Nor did this person have more than a very wobbly grasp of how the forums actually work. With zero credibility, said person annoyed people by moralising and lecturing at them.


So now we have a pretty bolshy group of people who are sitting about, kicking their heels, hoping against hope that someone will sort out this buggy, defective software. Many have made very detailed, constructive suggestions and requests, others have gone to the trouble of making work-arounds. In the meantime they are chatting amongst themselves, which is normal behaviour for bored people in a waiting room who are still hoping for something to happen.


There are people who have used the WebX forums for years and years and appreciated them, even with their faults. These people are still grumpy about being shifted onto something they see as much worse. So there are bad moods around.


In my personal opinion, there have been quite a lot of posts, probably some of them mine, that are unnecessarily off-topic, sarcastic and hostile. A bit of a tug on the reins would be no bad thing in my view.


However, moderating a group such as the one gathered here is not easy. To be successful, it is necessary to show good humour, a sense of humour, a willingness to explain actions, and a degree of courtesy and respect, even to those who are not behaving particularly well at the time. Oz was a shining example, and brought a considerable degree of order to the Lounge (an even wilder corner of the West ) without antagonising anyone - well, maybe just the one serial reprobate who is unreachable anyway.


The proverbial 'firm but fair' - and a very nice bloke.


To suddenly begin mass deletions, without showing any of these qualities, may well be counter-productive.


For me, Jochem has a head start, since I believe he is the possessor of a minor-planet-sized brain and the skills to sort this mess out in minutes if he were given the chance. Good start. Now we need a better balance between discouragement of excessive pointless and snarky posts, information about what progress is being made / might be made / won't be made on forum fixes and improvements, individual help like JC has always provided for people who have weird stuff going on with their account, and a degree of visible humanity - please - to gain the consent of those being moderated.

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Deleted User
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

I still can't get past the idea that "discussion" was invited and yet at the same time not needed.

Jochem,

I don't understand how you can be so hard-headed and stubborn!  I do understand that when we, any of us, do something, we generally feel we are correct in our actions.  BUT that does NOT mean we cannot learn from others and see that perhaps what we *thought* was correct, is just possibly slightly off-center from being correct.  One must be willing to see that there *are* other ways to look at

...

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Egotism. Count the uses of the word "I".


It's all about you isn't it?


You counter any critical remarks with the telling argument that if you think it's the way to go, everyone else can belt up.


This is a waste of time.

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New Here ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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I haven't heard any terribly impressive arguments either.

I read no further: I have no time for you - you seem unreachable.

<plonk!>

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Engaged ,
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

I could have. I didn't. I will continue not to do so in the future. I am after all a poor, heavy handed host.

Understatement of the year!

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Guest
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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A good moderator will earn the respect of the forum.


He needs to show judgement and maturity, not just blatant censorship.


Anyone can run around with a big stick!

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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Seriously, I don't understand what the big deal is.

That's one of the reasons why (IMO) you are unsuitable for the position of Moderator.

You have an amazing ability to ignore specific criticisms - such as Kath's comment regarding Dave & YOUR assumption that Dave was wilfully misleading people - I agree with her that that was breathtakingly insulting, and an apology is called for. Your penchant for deleting posts for trivial reasons is another thing which makes you (IMO) a poor Moderator. Your lack of respect for participants is another. Your lack of humour is another. Your pettiness is another. Your moralizing is another. Your seeming lack of any sort of "warmth" is another.

Go ahead: delete my post!

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Guest
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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A customer is the most  important visitor on our premises.

He is not dependent on us.

We are dependent  on him.

He is not an interruption in our work.

He is the purpose of it.

He is not  an outsider in our business.

He is part of it.

We are not doing him a favor by  serving him.

He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so.

- Gandhi

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Guest
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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[personal attacks edited out]  is just another reason I find myself less interested in coming to these forums and helping out.

A host needs skin thicker than an onion.

This place is getting worse everyday.

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Advisor ,
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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This forum has a purpose.  It is not a lounge. 

When posts are made that have nothing to do with its purpose, they will be removed, edited or locked.   Behavior contrary to the general forum guidelines will result in same.

Most Hosts refuse to even come here (to this forum ) any more, since there is little to no real content anymore.   Distorting a forum where you have a voice for forum bugs/improvements to a playground is not wise.

All the posts that have been moderated here have been for legitimate reasons aligned with the forum guidelines.  The Hosts are doing their job (the ones who still come here).

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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All the posts that have been moderated here have been for legitimate reasons aligned with the forum guidelines.  The Hosts are doing their job (the ones who still come here).

Oh, so deleting a harmless remark about lion tamers was that important?

Have you no comment on the fact that Mr. Van Dieten asked for suggestions as how to do things differently, yet, when given a suggestion, said

I could have. I didn't. I will continue not to do so in the future. I am after all a poor, heavy handed host.

Do you think that is acceptable behaviour from a moderator? I don't. Do you not think that in order to be an effective forum Moderator that one should treat users with respect? Do you have no response at all to any of the criticisms of the way in which the moderation is being done? Or are you just here to lecture?

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Guest
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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Start reporting the bad host for abuse.

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 07, 2009 Aug 07, 2009

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Start reporting the bad host for abuse.

You know, that idea had occurred to me!

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 09, 2009 Aug 09, 2009

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>Start reporting the bad host for abuse.

I did, for closing the "John C., Please..." thread. Although he gave an answer to my question, which I found reasonable, there was no reason to lock the thread afterwards: I was done replying in there, once the question was answered, anyway. I'm sure Steve and I would have continued our discussion/drivel elsewhere.

>I don't want to believe it but it really does seem as if adobe intends to let the user to user forums wither and die.

Why not? It would save them a TON of money by not having to maintain the place, and spend $0 for technical support (since you can't seem to get it from them any other way...)

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Thank you for the invite. I have already posted what was on my mind thus I feel no need to post anything else about the subject. Some thoughts (not all), posted by others, echo my thoughts. The respones given to their posts provide my answers. 

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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I still can't get past the idea that "discussion" was invited and yet at the same time not needed.

Jochem,

I don't understand how you can be so hard-headed and stubborn!  I do understand that when we, any of us, do something, we generally feel we are correct in our actions.  BUT that does NOT mean we cannot learn from others and see that perhaps what we *thought* was correct, is just possibly slightly off-center from being correct.  One must be willing to see that there *are* other ways to look at things and that our way is not the only way.

I liken being a forum moderator to being a manager over staff that are from different cultural, socioeconomic and educational backgrounds.  You want them to work for you right?  If your goal is to have them work *with* you and not *against* you, then you can't take the approach you're taking in these forums right now.  In real life, you would have a full mutiny on your hands with the "my way or the highway approach".  It takes patience, sensitivity and a strong sense of fairness.  Believe me, it's not an easy task!  I am speaking from my own personal real life situation here, so I really do know where of I speak.

Please, take the positive, meant in the best way comments from here and allow yourself to grow.  It shouldn't hurt too much!

edited for grammar

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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star.jpg

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Guest
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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WOW!  I got some points! 

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Advocate ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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I really think it is quite obvious, but that may be because this is not the first time I have set up shop somewhere as a moderator to enforce rules that were not being enforced. When you have seen/done that a few times it all falls down to a predictable pattern.

In terms of actual moderation, this all got started by the following 4 instances where I used my awesome powers of moderation:

  1. Moved a thread to the correct forum with an explanation. (Mon 19:28 UTC)
  2. Locked an off topic thread start with explanation and link to the correct place. (Tue 08:02 UTC)
  3. Locked an off topic thread with an explanation and a link to the correct place. (Wed 20:43 UTC)
  4. Locked a thread that was going downhill while removing some post about smelly cat food. (Wed 22:19 UTC)

I really don't think there is anything wrong with what I did.  But if anybody considers those actions unfair I want to hear arguments as to why.

Instead of somebody standing up and providing some sort of argument as to what there was wrong with the moderation, what quite predictably happened was that people started swooping in to test the new limits. Initially blatantly by opening new threads like "Hey Lock this thread too!!!!" (Thu 01:44 UTC) and "New thread locker strikes! Again and again!" (Thu 03:32 UTC), which obviously got deleted. Later on people got more subtle with posting messages in existing threads, then a few lines in a message that was somewhat relevant to the topic, then just a byline etc .Eventually that reached an equilibrium and now everybody knows (hopefully) what is acceptable.

Now there are two parts as to why I do not think it is necessary to discuss this moderation.

  1. I still don't see what is wrong with my moderation in the 4 cases linked above. In fact, I would turn it around and say there is something seriously wrong with some of the people participating in the events that they would see those 4 actions as a cause for starting the threads they did. But even though I don't see anything wrong, I still want to hear it if people think I acted unfair in the 4 threads linked above.
  2. After those 4 cases, people started swooping in asking, through their actions, for me to establish the new limits. So I established them. Again I see no reason for discussion, it is a given that this is how the show goes down when a moderator moves in and starts enforcing the rules.

"All this has happened before. All this will happen again."

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Guide ,
Aug 08, 2009 Aug 08, 2009

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Here goes post #42 all over again.

Two things to remember:

• some folks forget that they cease to be "one of us" when they become hosts; and

• they've never read the Gandhi quote.  It is time, therefore, to repeat it:

This is a genuine, well-known quote by Mahatma Ghandi, the Indian spiritual leader and activist:

• A customer is the most important visitor on our premises, he is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him.


• He is not an interruption in our work. He is the purpose of it.


• He is not an outsider in our business. He is part of it.


• We are not doing him a favor by serving him.     He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so.

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:QU-_-MGLrrqQhM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Gandhi_costume.jpg

Employees of any entity, whether in government or in private business, will do well to keep it in mind and at heart.

The recent post by Kim A. Nguyen, universally well received here, shows that she knows this principle and puts it into practice.

However, a few Adobe staff and associates seem somehow to think that Adobe's customers are lowly adversaries in some sort of Internet game or in a newsgroup.  Those who manifest that misguided and poisonous attitude in this forum and in their blogs are showing their incompetence and their ignorance of basic business principles.  To them I say:  you're dead wrong!  You are far from being our superiors, you are our servants.

They should know well who they are—and we certainly do.

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Guide ,
Aug 09, 2009 Aug 09, 2009

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It's amusing, interesting and ironic that a fervent NTTP advocate, van Dieten, has now been brought down to the janitorial level of a forum bouncer.

Just think:  if we had NTTP, which he champions, he would be utterly powerless at censoring individual posts. 

He could prbably block and ban posters after the fact, but anyone could just create additional new accounts (like LT) and their sent posts would be irretrievably all over the net. 

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Advocate ,
Aug 09, 2009 Aug 09, 2009

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I have no iterest in suppressing certain messages everywhere, I am perfecly happy to just suppress then here. Everything you posted as a duplicate to the Lounge is still there. I just wish you would take the hint.

Besides, NNTP is so last year:

ForumClient.PNG

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Guide ,
Aug 09, 2009 Aug 09, 2009

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All posts of mine deleted by van Dieten, including the original text of this message and in one below no longer visible on the web interface, have been sent out by email anyway.

Additionally, they're already cached in Google groups.

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Engaged ,
Aug 09, 2009 Aug 09, 2009

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Besides, NNTP is so last year:

http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/8971/ForumClient.PNG

That's looking good, Jochem. Any idea when it might be ready to test? I'm willing to give it a whirl anytime.

Noel

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Advocate ,
Aug 09, 2009 Aug 09, 2009

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I have no idea.

There are two more issues where I need input from Jive. And even despite JC submitting these issues to Jive under Adobe's SLA there is very little movement. And historically every time I found a problem in the webservices, submitted it to Jive, Jive registering it as bug and suggesting a workaround, there is a 75% chance there is another bug in the workaround.

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Engaged ,
Aug 09, 2009 Aug 09, 2009

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Sounds frustrating. Perhaps someone should invoke a penalty clause under the SLA.

Noel

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Advocate ,
Aug 09, 2009 Aug 09, 2009

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The other amusing, interesting and ironic fact is that I pass by the computer, see that lots of new messages have arrived, and read all the ones deleted recently from this forum. There are probably only a few people reading regularly in here now, most having given up on seeing any constructive response to their complaints/suggestions/requests. So the only people who would have seen those posts - see them anyway

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