NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.

[ilssac]

COPTIED FROM A REPLY, but after I posted I decided I wanted this to be a thread of its own.

As a 'News Group User' of the older forum, I find the e-mail feature to not be sufficient to make up the removal of the NTTP feature.

I, and several like me, answered a lot more questions then we asked.  To do this, we don't hang around the web interface all day.  Rather we connected with our handy news readers to the NNTP feeds.  Thus we could pruse all the new topics since the last time we had a few moments.  See any that we could help with and fire off a reply, then go on to the next message.  No back buttons, multiple web forms or any other huey that slows down serial responders.

We NNTP users may have been a small group, but we where very vocal, at least on the ColdFusion forums where I share much of my knowledge.

I can tell you, if today is the indication that this is the best that these new forums has to offer, I will not be a frequent contributor to these discussions.  And I am not alone.

I don't care if the technology uses E-mail, NNTP or RSS feeds, but it must use it correctly.  The messages must be threaded, they must be complete and understandable and we must be able to read and reply with tools other then a web browser.

I am not going to be able to help with messages like this.  It does not make sense without context to the other messages of this thread!

[Advanced Techniques] New message: "Re: post data" [1i9rpv-1np-7Qx9]

Ian Skinner,

A new message was posted in the thread "post data":

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1870239#1870239

Author  : dchard
Profile : http://forums.adobe.com/people/dchard

Message:
--------------------------------------------------------------
that I don't know...that's why I'm asking if it's possible and how. But I'm thinking is it possible to store the data on a session variable thru onclick? So that when a user pick a choice on the drop down then it will store in the session.

[ChivertonT]

Indeed. It's impossible to monitor a web forum with the same ease as scanning a list of threads in a news or email client.

[RoboWizard]

Hi there

That's exactly how I operate. I have subscribed via E-Mail to the forums I want to monitor. Threads arrive and are sorted into folders and I scan them in my E-Mail client. If I want to reply I'm free to reply via my E-Mail client or if I choose I may visit the thread in question and reply via the browser.

Cheers... Rick

[ChivertonT]

Rick: You can't be replying over email because that doesn't work (see new top level post in this room). You also probably noticed that the emails aren't threaded, because their missing the right headers (again, see other posts).

[ilssac]

ChivertonT wrote:

Rick: You can't be replying over email because that doesn't work (see new top level post in this room). You also probably noticed that the emails aren't threaded, because their missing the right headers (again, see other posts).

He can be replying over e-mail at least sometimes.  I have sucessfully done it but not 100% of the time.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it fails just producing a blank box for a respone.  I have no clear idea why.

[Adam Cameron.]

>He can be replying over e-mail at least sometimes. I have sucessfully done

it but not

100% of the time. Sometimes it works and sometimes it fails just

producing a blank box

for a respone. I have no clear idea why.

What do we get when I send this reply?

--

Adam

[RoboWizard]

Hi all

I monitor what arrives by E-Mail but head to the web to reply.

As Ian has correctly pointed out, sometimes replying by E-Mail works (I've successfully replied using E-mail) and sometimes it doesn't. (I have seen undeliverable messages).

Cheers... 

[ChivertonT]

Well, I'm hardly going to try and hope it works, then go back and hour later through the bounces and cut and paste them all it.

I don't value these forums that much, geez, I'll just go to houseoffusion.com, and encourage everyone else to do the same !

[Guest]

I have almost never used the Web/HTTP access to the forums. NNTP is so much easier, more direct, and for me it just sits there along with my personal and professional email accounts, various other vendor newsgroups and forums such as Microsoft's and Corel's, and even Usenet. I can just click to move among them and check for new postings.

I didn't even know that NNTP had been discontinued - there was no notice posted in the individual forums at all. I only came here to note that I could no longer connect to adobeforums.com, and found this thread.  Threads ... that's another thing that NNTP does better than the website. On the website it's impossible to see which messages are replies to which in a message tree.

I hope that I'm considered one of the 'helpful people' - but whether I am or not count me among the missing, because I will most definitely NOT come and check a website to see if there's any activity in given forum. I DID and would continue to simply look at my list of NNTP newsgroups, which is always open and immediately displays whether there are any new messages, and how many.

   - Herb V B

[ilssac]

On the website it's impossible to see which messages are replies to which in a message tree.

Not impossible, there is an option in one's profile to configure the view to a 'threaded' rather then 'flat' view.  It is not a very good implementation of a threaded discussion IMHO.  And it does not make up for the lack of NNTP.  But I do not want arguments based on misinformation clouding the issue.

I have now been working hard for three days to find some way I can continue to work with these forums.  So far the RSS feeds are the only thing I can bearly tollerate.  But there are 6 frigging (apparently the preceding word which rhymes with "rigging" is not acceptable) RSS feeds for every forum and absolutely NO documentation that I can find on why one would choose a 'Thread' over a 'Discussion' or an 'All Content' RSS feed.  I've just un-subscribed and re-subscribed to all the ColdFusion forums for the third time because I still have not found the one that gives me all the threads, messages, replies and updates.

Even with the RSS feeds, I have to open up a browser to reply to anything I want to help with and that REALLY slows down my work.  I have to wait for the browser to open a tab, fetch the content, render all the HTML and JavaScript, click on a reply button, WAIT again for another page to download and render, and then wait for the AJAX - DHTML WYSIWYG form to render itself  I tried the plain HTML form, but the system does not work well with that if you want any white space in your content, then better code in the expected HTML.  And then I can start to type some 20 to 30 seconds later.

I could sometimes fire off two or three quick replies in NNTP in the time it takes me to type my first letter in this new system.  I'm sorry I do not see myself sticking this out very much longer, and I think many of my fellow NNTP users may have already gone on to greener pastures.

Good Luck Adobe Forums.

Message was edited by: Ian Skinner

[Guest]

Re: Threading -

   Thank you Ian for the correction, and you're right - this discussion shouldn't be muddied by untruths! (Nor should ANY discussion)

  So it is not "impossible" to display threads. I changed my preference but then had to really look closely at the screen to see the light gray connections and very slightly indented heirarchies of messages ... As you say, it's not the greatest implementation ...  Even some other web forums display a clear tree structure, displaying the message subject/topic and author and (rarely) the first line or two of text.

It took me at least ten times as long to get to this reply (after getting an email of your msg) as it would have WITH nntp. I didn't reply via email because I'm not yet sure just how that works - I'll find out soon enough ... maybe.

- Herb

[ChivertonT]

The arrows in the thread view are near-invisible. God help you if you are vision inpaired.

[JolieKatana]

well I was not a contributor to this forum for a long while, I posted at other unofficial PS groups on my newsreader for many years. I know I was helpful to some and somewhat interesting to others. I certainly helped more than asked things for myself.

I quit the unofficial forums due to poor behavior of posters in such unmoderated environment but this forum is way too over-moderated and seems to encourage answers by only Adobe approved officials, trying to credential and formalize by ratings etc. And now another snub to all those of us who participated by newsreader.  I hate the email from threads, I prefer to scan the topic headers as I always have and be able to see all the replies inline. I liked the more lively open boards that had fewer subtopics, and less "look at this thread" and just direct posts between users helping one another as equals. Seems it is becoming more of an "ask the Adobe-employed experts" a question, not a user share group anyway.

So I am inviting you all to come back to USENET unofficial forums, maybe we can make that a new home for those of us who feel disrespected by this decision.

CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL  Adobe is trying to make everyone use FLASH a platform that is not on many public computers.

The exchange was for many years a pure share, easy to search and navigate and now ruined by an unweildly FLASH based UI, not as useful but of course promotes the company they merged with and selling stuff. FORCING FLASH UI on us once again.

.

There's an old adage "if ain't broke don't fix it" -Draconian activation procedures that only piss off purchasers and do nothing to prevent warez users from stealing- both the website changes and the suites and CS4 are like NEW COKE--newer? yes! better? not really

[Captiv8r]

Flash? Noooo Flash! Where see Flash?

[Guest]

there's no flash here. i think it's just the general perception that POS website == flash website that's confusing him.

[Guest]

I think it's the way elements grind into view, rather than just popping up like the olden days.

[Guest]

it seems like there is flash loading up in the message windows ...

[Guest]

and I might add, trying to upload that image into the previous post was downright annoying. 

First it errored, saying an unknown error occured, then it wouldn't take the html for the image ... what a pain 

[JolieKatana]

FWIW I am not a HIM but a HER

I found a free service: freenews.netfront.net

and have re-joined alt.graphics.photoshop

If most of you NNTP readers will join I know we can make it better..

Happy Easter Christian Friends

[Captiv8r]

Hi Jolie

Adobe operates the user forums. The user forums are where most of the average users head if they need help. Now the average user will care less whether the forums run on NNTP, Java, Flash, Ajax, SPAM or Turkey as long as they can see where to post and get help with their issues. Agree?

Most of the dissatisfaction expressed in this thread has been voiced by an elite minority of the overall user base. Thinking about the atypical 80/20 rule that seems to be predominant in many discussions, let's say 20% of the users are answering 80% of the questions. (Personally, I think that ratio is skewed, and possibly closer to 97/3, but just for the sake of discussion here we will assume it's totally accurate.) So let's further assume that those same 20% worked exclusively via NNTP.

What you seem to be suggesting is that everyone that operated via NNTP (that elite 20%) all move on over to the freebie NNTP service you found. And that's fine if that's where you and others feel more comfortable.

I would suggest there is a fundamental flaw in your thinking. Assuming I've stated the issue properly, this would mean that the 20% user base (those answering 80% of the questions) would simply vanish from the Adobe forums. And I'm sure everyone that is angry about the loss of NNTP would probably be thinking something like: (darn straight! How Dare you take away our NNTP! You get what you deserve if we all leave in droves!).

Sure, you and others are totally free to abandon these forums and move on elsewhere. I might even suggest that on Adobe's side that they might be thinking something like (Fine! Move on if you like. After all, we are tired of hearing your complaints. If you will be happier elsewhere, that's where you should go. So please go, and be well in your pursuits.)

Let's assume you are 100% successful in coaxing the entire 20% of the expert user base to abandon ship here and move to the freebie NNTP. What would that really accomplish? I'm thinking you would find the new NNTP home eerily quiet, because you would end up with nothing but a group of Experts. The average users would be heading here to these forums and asking questions and looking for help. But the experts would be in their own quiet community with nobody to talk to but one another.

To me, there is a much larger question here that remains unanswered: Do you participate and answer questions only because in your workflow NNTP makes it easy? Or do you participate because you enjoy helping your fellow humans with software you are passionate about?  Based on the outcry, I'm sensing the former applies to those most peeved about it.

Cheers... Rick

[Mark_A__Boyd]

Captiv8r wrote:

To me, there is a much larger question here that remains unanswered: Do you participate and answer questions only because in your workflow NNTP makes it easy? Or do you participate because you enjoy helping your fellow humans with software you are passionate about?  Based on the outcry, I'm sensing the former applies to those most peeved about it.

Speaking for myself, I participate(d) because (in no particular order):

• I learn quite a lot while helping others
• NNTP makes it easy
• I enjoy helping others

NNTP makes it easy to "Lurk" in newsgroups where I don't contribute, too. I learn quite a bit by reading messages every day in newsgroups - even when I don't have a particular question in mind.

I was going to abandon this forum, but I am seeing some real effort going toward improving the email system (THANKS JC!). If they can get that up to par, I may be able to find an acceptable compromise between NNTP and this Web interface. If they can't get the email system up to par - and they don't add the NNTP service that Jive supports, then I can't see myself spending much time here.

There is a gargantuan difference between NNTP and Jive Forums in the time required to read/post to 100s of messages.

[Guest]

Captiv8r -

I think it's both more complicated and more of a problem than you posit.

I agree that almost 100% of the questions from people who need

assistance have come in, and will continue to come in, via the

website; and it doesn't really matter how well or poorly designed the

forum website is for the purpose of asking questions, as long as

someone unfamiliar with it can figure out how to get their question

asked.

The world at large does not use usenet newsgroups except occasionally

via google groups, and I think you're also correct in guessing that

usenet based NNTP-only alt. or comp. groups would end up being a bunch

of experts talking to each other - when they can get past the spam.

DEDICATED news servers, such as those run by Corel and Microsoft, and

once upon a time by Adobe, can and do get heavy traffic by all people,

because they're pointed to by the sponsers along with usually decent

instructions how to access them. See

http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx

for an example.

Of course, MS ALSO has a web-based newsreader that's far superior to

the POS that Adobe has selected, and the MS groups are very easily

accessed - no registration or Logon is required. The MS newsgroups are

propagated to Usenet, Corel's are not. There are advantages and

disadvantages either way.

ANSWERING questions and providing support requires a completely

different approach than is needed for ASKING questions. The support

community, including both Adobe personnel and outsiders like myself,

shouldn't have to root around like pigs in slop to find topics that

are appropriate to our individual expertises. With NNTP access, all I

need to do is glance at my newsreader/email application, which is

always open, to see which forums of the limited list I support have

activity. A single click then lists all the new messages by subject,

and another click reads the message, with a reply being easy to make.

The email 'system' (which I'm using right now) is better than the

website for responders, but is awkward to set up and use. Because it's

email, separating out the adobe material just adds to more folders to

whateve personal email folders exist - whether all Adobe forum mail

goes into the same folder or a set of separate sub-folders.

- Herb

[JayJhabrix]

Captiv8r...

You're getting the wrong end of the stick.... It's not about ego, it's about productivity.

Most of the experts who reply to Adobe forums are professionals involved in their own work and with their own workflows. NNTP is much faster and much clearer. (If you've ever used NNTP, you'ld realise that yourself.)

So, in effect, with the web forums only approach, they're having the same time to post less answers, plus they're having to break their workflow just to check for new topics plus the whole thing is taking much longer plus...

I know the difference very well because i basically frequest two forums:

1/ Dreamweaver - used to access by NNTP. A lot of activity. Web access very slow and unwieldy.

2/ Illustrator - used to access by Web. Much less activity and so not a problem

The Dreamweaver forum has far more activity than the Illustrator - accessing it by web is much slower... and more inefficient for a host of reasons. You can't mark threads you're interested in, you can't mark thread as read if you're not interested in them... etc., etc., etc.

So, when these guys say that they won't be here unless they can access by NNTP, they have a very valid reason.

Cheers...

JJ

[Captiv8r]

Hi JJ

I totally understand there is a perceived loss of productivity. I really don't feel I've got the wrong end of the stick.

I have used NNTP before. All of you will probably laugh when I say that my use of it was from inside Microsoft Outlook Express. I used to view the Microsoft Newsgroups there. And I've used my Thunderbird to view some of my Adobe forums that way. In both cases, I was having essentially the same viewing experience as I had with E-Mail. So long ago I switched to a method of working very similar to what the forums are now offering.

I suppose I could say that you have the wrong end of the stick because you seem to be under the belief that the only way participation may occur now is by the web.

jhabrix wrote:

So, in effect, with the web forums only approach...

I've subscribed to my forums of choice by E-Mail. I'm sure many of you disagree with me on this point. But to me a message is a message. If I'm reading newsgroups or E-Mail messages they look about the same. Sure there is that "loss of threading" bit that everyone is talking about. But I have to tell you that I personally don't see that as a real hardship. My messages flow into my E-Mail client. They are sorted into folders I've created to match the forum categories I am choosing to follow. I've worked that way for years. So immediately upon glancing at my E-Mail (which I'm already doing like 5 billion times a day anyway) I can tell if a post arrived and which forum category it was in. I glance at the message and can pretty much tell immediately whether it's a new post or a reply.

I know that there are a couple of hickeys to be worked out with replying by E-Mail. But once those are resolved there is no reason a person couldn't totally participate via E-Mail messages and never have to visit the web forums other than to initially set it all up.

Cheers... Rick

[JayJhabrix]

Rick...

Some of what you say makes sense... but not all...

Using NGs (NNTP) is a completely different scene to using email. In the former, all subjects come down and you can select the ones you want to follow or browse through. Everything is compact and in one place...

Additionally, your mail box doesn't get clogged nor is your email id compromised.

There are a lot of other issues as well... BTW, i too use(d) OE

JJ

[Captiv8r]

Hi JJ

I'm not understanding some of what you said.

jhabrix wrote:

In the former, all subjects come down and you can select the ones you want to follow or browse through. Everything is compact and in one place...

Okay, but after Thunderbird does its sorting, all my posts are in one place. The folders I created for them to sort into. The messages aren't part of my general mail messages.

jhabrix wrote:

Additionally, your mail box doesn't get clogged nor is your email id compromised.

There are a lot of other issues as well... BTW, i too use(d) OE

JJ

I'm not sure why you feel mail is "clogged". Are you possibly really tight on disk space or something? I also have defined rules for each of these folders so they only retain a specific amount of data and don't eventually grow beyond capacity.

And the really confusing part here is how my E-Mail ID would be compromised. To my knowledge it isn't listed or known anywhere other than the Adobe server that sent it, no?

Cheers... Rick