A Death of the Family

Explorer ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Once upon a Time the Adobe Photoshop Forum was a community.  A lot like a family.  There were members who participated daily for a decade or more. Friends. Friends who are now gone, thanks to Jive ware.

A great many of us met one another face-to-face.  Even more have talked on the phone.  We celebrated births of children, new houses, new jobs.  We commiserated over lost jobs, broken marriages, deaths.  We kept up with one another's birthdays.  We had a round robin Christmas card exchange.  Our community, though online, was a real community with daily exchanges, dear friends, like family.  Now gone.  Like a death of the family.

We shared vibrant, energized discussions of how to improve one’s skills using Photoshop.  What one person does not know, another does.  Or did.  The knowledge shared on the Photoshop forum of this day is dismal in comparison.

I personally have owned Dreamweaver about as long as I have owned Photoshop, 11 years or so.  In the beginning I tried visiting the Dreamweaver (Macromedia) forums.  They were cold, devoid of friendship, and uninviting.  No reason to go back there.  I'm not surprised a spirit of community never developed there.  I learned how to use Dreamweaver via the Adobe Photoshop forum.

Now, we old-timers, faithful Adobe customers, are being told that we should put on a happy face and learn to love Jive ware.  We are being told our discontent is the only problem. That this is the only forum that HAS a problem. This forum,  Forum Comments,  where complaints / suggestions on how to improve things  are supposed to be lodged.

We know better.  Jive ware sucks.  It has killed our community and we are supposed to learn to love it.

Also, we are being told there were numerous complaints voiced about recently banned members.

Funny thing about that.  Where are all those numerous complaints?  Perhaps that means there is another forum where these complaints were lodged?  One we, Adobe's customers are not allowed access to?  Or perhaps these complainers managed to e-mail Adobe employees?  Those same employees whose e-mail addresses are not available?

Somehow that does not have a ring of truth.

Or perhaps all these numerous complaints were lodged by one moderator?  That might make sense, if any of this makes sense.

We are told we should ask members why they were banned.  Of course since they are banned, that won't be easy will it?  That is, of course, assuming they have been told.

I must admit that while I am sorely disappointed, I am not surprised with the way Adobe has in the past and now continues to handle one member's complaints about another.

The Adobe way is to take one for a member's complaint about another and ban the accused, without so much as making the effort to contact the accused to find out their side of things.  No matter how serious the charges or how serious the repercussions to the person who has been banned.  No matter if there is not a single word of truth in the accusations.

That sucks even more than Jive ware.

Clearly our former community is of no importance to Adobe. Sorry, I cannot put on a Happy Face.

Paz

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A Death of the Family

Explorer ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Once upon a Time the Adobe Photoshop Forum was a community.  A lot like a family.  There were members who participated daily for a decade or more. Friends. Friends who are now gone, thanks to Jive ware.

A great many of us met one another face-to-face.  Even more have talked on the phone.  We celebrated births of children, new houses, new jobs.  We commiserated over lost jobs, broken marriages, deaths.  We kept up with one another's birthdays.  We had a round robin Christmas card exchange.  Our community, though online, was a real community with daily exchanges, dear friends, like family.  Now gone.  Like a death of the family.

We shared vibrant, energized discussions of how to improve one’s skills using Photoshop.  What one person does not know, another does.  Or did.  The knowledge shared on the Photoshop forum of this day is dismal in comparison.

I personally have owned Dreamweaver about as long as I have owned Photoshop, 11 years or so.  In the beginning I tried visiting the Dreamweaver (Macromedia) forums.  They were cold, devoid of friendship, and uninviting.  No reason to go back there.  I'm not surprised a spirit of community never developed there.  I learned how to use Dreamweaver via the Adobe Photoshop forum.

Now, we old-timers, faithful Adobe customers, are being told that we should put on a happy face and learn to love Jive ware.  We are being told our discontent is the only problem. That this is the only forum that HAS a problem. This forum,  Forum Comments,  where complaints / suggestions on how to improve things  are supposed to be lodged.

We know better.  Jive ware sucks.  It has killed our community and we are supposed to learn to love it.

Also, we are being told there were numerous complaints voiced about recently banned members.

Funny thing about that.  Where are all those numerous complaints?  Perhaps that means there is another forum where these complaints were lodged?  One we, Adobe's customers are not allowed access to?  Or perhaps these complainers managed to e-mail Adobe employees?  Those same employees whose e-mail addresses are not available?

Somehow that does not have a ring of truth.

Or perhaps all these numerous complaints were lodged by one moderator?  That might make sense, if any of this makes sense.

We are told we should ask members why they were banned.  Of course since they are banned, that won't be easy will it?  That is, of course, assuming they have been told.

I must admit that while I am sorely disappointed, I am not surprised with the way Adobe has in the past and now continues to handle one member's complaints about another.

The Adobe way is to take one for a member's complaint about another and ban the accused, without so much as making the effort to contact the accused to find out their side of things.  No matter how serious the charges or how serious the repercussions to the person who has been banned.  No matter if there is not a single word of truth in the accusations.

That sucks even more than Jive ware.

Clearly our former community is of no importance to Adobe. Sorry, I cannot put on a Happy Face.

Paz

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 06, 2009

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As of this time, I see three reported replies that are nowhere in sight... I wonder if this one will stay.

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Explorer ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Looks to be a trend. Hmmm. I think we may be heavily censored. They better figure out how to get rid of the response count so they won't look so silly.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 06, 2009

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The count does eventually get sorted out, but it takes some time. This is not precisely a fast software... And no, it's not censorship. It's just keeping the place clean.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 06, 2009

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As of now... it's showing six replies when there are three... mine will make it the fourth

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 07, 2009

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Still the same three messages missing. Could it just have been LT laughing on everybody's face?

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Mentor ,
Nov 07, 2009

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Who is MonteCristo640??

That is who's post are being deep-sixed. and I show 11 post  that have been deleted, from him just this morning.

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Contributor ,
Nov 07, 2009

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PjonesCET wrote:

Who is MonteCristo640??

That is who's post are being deep-sixed. and I show 11 post  that have been deleted, from him just this morning.

I believe that would be LT.

I have asked the banned members what they were told about being banned and it's the basic line of <please note that I am only paraphrasing here> "we want to run a nice forum without personal attacks etc".  They were not told what they said or did that caused the banning in the first place.

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New Here ,
Nov 07, 2009

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I have asked the banned members what they were told about being banned and it's the basic line of <please note that I am only paraphrasing here> "we want to run a nice forum without personal attacks etc".  They were not told what they said or did that caused the banning in the first place.

That is correct: the notice that "Fr. Watson" (who has not been mentioned thus far, but is also amongst those banned") recieved read:

Hello Fr. Watson.

Your Adobe Forums account has been suspended for violating our adobe.com Terms of Use and Adobe Community Guidelines.

We are seeking to foster a positive environment where individuals respect each other. Criticism is welcomed when framed in a constructive manner.

Let us know if you have questions.

Regards,

The Adobe Community Team


Fr. Watson did not receive any sort of advance warning, nor did he recieve any notice that (according to posts in the 'Why are you banning all these people?" thread) there were complaints from other forum users. The message quoted verbatim above does not reference any specific post that was felt to violate the Terms of Use, nor was there any mention of complaints from other users.

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Advocate ,
Nov 07, 2009

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Kami Bambiraptor wrote:

Fr. Watson did not receive any sort of advance warning

I don't know how Adobe ended up with the list they did, but perhaps banning just one identity of an individual is the warning.

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Contributor ,
Nov 07, 2009

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So then perhaps they can explain those others like John Joslin etc?  Banning with a copy/paste of the terms of use is lame, at best.

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Advocate ,
Nov 07, 2009

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Don't hold your breath. Even if they wanted to, it would take at least as long to get permission from Adobe Legal to discuss the actions of individuals in public as it did to get permission for the abuse escalation procedure in place. And I think I saw the first signs of them working on that in May.

On second though, the answer from Adobe Legal would probably be very fast: "No".

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Mentor ,
Nov 07, 2009

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I suppose they are  basing the bans on the actual number of abuse reports than actually looking at the supposed item that is subject of the abuse and seeing if it was legit or not.

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Contributor ,
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I have a question:  if emails are sent out to tell an individual that a post of theirs was submitted for abuse, but deemed not to be abusive, is there also an email sent out if a post is reported for abuse and *is* deemed to be abusive?  I would think it should work both ways.

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Advocate ,
Nov 07, 2009

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greenjumpyone wrote on 11/7/2009 11:14 PM:

I have a question: if emails are sent out to tell an individual that a post of theirs was submitted for abuse, but deemed not to be abusive, is there also an email sent out if a post is reported for abuse and is deemed to be abusive?

Post in the test forum and we can try.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 07, 2009

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I don't suppose anything, and I don't know what the "No" in Jochem's message means. I only know that, to this humble person, it seems that something is awfully wrong in all this. Something to do with an almost forgotten concept called "manners". And perhaps related with hiding the dirt under the carpet...

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Contributor ,
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jochemd wrote:

greenjumpyone wrote on 11/7/2009 11:14 PM:

I have a question:  if emails are sent out to tell an individual that a post of theirs was submitted for abuse, but deemed not to be abusive, is there also an email sent out if a post is reported for abuse and is deemed to be abusive?

Post in the test forum and we can try.

and what will that prove?  You could report the post as abusive, but it won't really be abusive and will be deemed as being okay by the tribunal.  Unless of course you *do* make decisions on whether a post is considered abusive?

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Advocate ,
Nov 07, 2009

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Do you want to know or not?

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 07, 2009

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Well, here is a test message as per your request:

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/520150

Please everyone fell free to report it as abusive, as its title asks. Although this does not address my comments in a previous message (#15 at the time of posting this one; these things are changing rather fast around here).

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Advocate ,
Nov 07, 2009

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So do you have a valid email address in your profile and did you get an email?

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 07, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

So do you have a valid email address in your profile and did you get an email?

Of course I have a valid email address: my own. And I did not receive an email but two identical ones, sent with a one second difference. This is their text:

Hello,
>
>This is an automatic, system-generated  message.
>
>The content you posted below was reported for 
>abuse and removed by our moderators:
>
>Subject: Please  report this message as abusive
>
>This is posted in answer to a  request by Jochem.
>Please report this post as  abusive.
>
>
>Posted: 11/7/09 3:43  PM
>
>
>Please review the Adobe.com Terms of Use 
>agreement at
>http://www.adobe.com/go/gftray_foot_terms and 
>the Adobe Online Forums Etiquette and Best
>Practices at 
>http://forums.adobe.com/thread/414764.

And my message was removed. Very justly, it would seem.

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Contributor ,
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Yes, but now will the message go through the test and be considered abusive by the "tribunal" and will they send you a second email stating same?

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 08, 2009

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Sorry for the delay, but last night I was logged out immediately after posting my message above, and the login page was not available before I went to bed.


Hopper, as I understand the message I received and quoted, my test message was removed as soon as it was reported as abusive, with no revision:

"The content you posted ... was reported for abuse and removed..." (emphasis added now by me).

It does not say it was considered abusive. And this was no warning: my message had been completely removed by the time I received those emails.

Addition: Please note that there is nothing in my deleted message, quoted in the email, that can be considered in the least ofensive, or against any of the rules.

Message was edited by: Claudio González. Reason: addition

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Mentor ,
Nov 08, 2009

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The login in server official died 5:31pm EST and remained off as of 12:45 am

Seems like it sign in server had a major melt down.

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Community Beginner ,
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>but it won't really be abusive and will be deemed as being okay by the tribunal.

I think I could help out here. I have a SLEW of text documents on my desktop, that have made it into the message box, only for me to decide NOT to hit the "Post" button. All I need is a good Full Moon Monday Night!

I'm not done in here, (yet!)

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Contributor ,
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Claudio González wrote:

Sorry for the delay, but last night I was logged out immediately after posting my message above, and the login page was not available before I went to bed.


Hopper, as I understand the message I received and quoted, my test message was removed as soon as it was reported as abusive, with no revision:

"The content you posted ... was reported for abuse and removed..." (emphasis added now by me).

It does not say it was considered abusive. And this was no warning: my message had been completely removed by the time I received those emails.

Addition: Please note that there is nothing in my deleted message, quoted in the email, that can be considered in the least ofensive, or against any of the rules.

Message was edited by: Claudio González. Reason: addition

Claudio,  the entire purpose of the test was three fold.

1) IF a message is reported for abuse, does the originator get an email stating it was reported for abuse?  In your case, yes  you did, in my case, no I did not.

2) IF the reported message is found not to be abusive, is an email sent to the originator stating it was not abusive and is the post returned to the thread.  In my case, yes.

3) IF the reported message is found to be abusive by the tribunal, is the originator sent a message stating that the tribunal found it abusive?  We don't know the answer to this.


I had a message that had been reported as abusive but I only got the email after it was deemed to not be abusive.  I never received one that stated my message had been submitted.

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Advocate ,
Nov 08, 2009

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You don't get a message when it is reported. You get a message when a moderator approves or rejects the message. Rejection means that it will immediately become invisible to users, though not to moderators.

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jochemd wrote:

You don't get a message when it is reported. You get a message when a moderator approves or rejects the message. Rejection means that it will immediately become invisible to users, though not to moderators.

Please define "moderator approves or rejects the message" ... does that mean that the mod makes the decision on whether or not something is abusive?  I thought you said you guys didn't make those decisions??

and what if it's considered abusive ... is an email then sent?

I think the originator should receive a message stating one of their messages have been reported for abuse so they can track what goes on with their messages.

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Guru ,
Nov 09, 2009

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The abuse button should be turned to the OFF mode. Naming names was not a good thing as all it did was generate hurt feelings and a lot more animosity. Ann and Kath are not here to defend themselves or dispute the allegations declaired against them. 

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Explorer ,
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I find it appalling that several basic Tenants of Justice, granted by the 6th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, appear to have little or no value to the people running the forums of the Adobe Corporation.

Among these rights are:

The right to a Speedy Trial.

A person cannot be incarcerated for a lengthy period without having been found guilty.  (Or banished)

A Public Trial, by a Jury of their Peers

The accused cannot be tried in secret, by an all powerful, unknown tribunal.

A Notice of Accusation.

The accused has a right to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation against him/her.

Confrontation of Opposing Witnesses.

The accused has the right to be present at his/her trial.  The accused has the right to know what charges have been made against them and by whom.  The accused has the right to cross examine his/her accusers at trial.

Compulsory Process for Obtaining Favorable Witnesses.

The accused is allowed to testify on his/her own behalf and is entitled to subpoena witnesses in his/her favor.

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Explorer ,
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I received an email from a friend who has only recently become aware of what's going on here THIS TIME.

They said:

     "I did see that  some things just don't change: Adobe continues on the path of total world  domination by way of customer insults. Kicking people out of the forums, along  with insults to their character, something you're all too familiar with.  A corporation can do that if there's no  competition, eh? So welcome to the toilet paper line, comrade. The day will  come when the Adobe monopoly is busted up. Until then I will avoid  supporting them whenever and wherever I can."

I couldn't agree more.

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Mentor ,
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If this site was Public held (say Government run. Then everything you say would be  true.

Problem Is .... This is held by a privately held company. and everything such as free speech is out the door. Its only free to the extent the company allow. For example say everyone at Adobe is not allowed to wear Blue Suites and you know it. But if as a way to insult them. You say "You look good in them Blue Suits". You could be banned just for saying such. And there is nothing that can be done about it. Because its  a Forum Provided by a Private Company. In other words as long its done under the guise of a Privately held Company you can do anything you want.

Unlike Companies Like Apple that considers support forums are a necessary part of Support and also good PR. Adobe doesn't care about about either. It just an necessary irritant to be put up with.

If they thought otherwise, The forums would be better, and they would hire people that could speak proper language.  I am not saying I am aginst Foriegn People having such jobs, I just mean, if they do, they should be taught to speak in a manner the customer can understand.

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Guru ,
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.

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Nice to see that someone is answering questions around here...all I wanted was some clarification but I guess that's not possible. Leads me to believe that Jochem knows he is wrong on this one.

Message was edited by Jochem van Dieten to make hidden content visible

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Guru ,
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Sometimes it just makes a person wonder what the real deal is.

Message was edited by Jochem van Dieten to make hidden content visible

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Mentor ,
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.

Message was edited by Jochem van Dieten to make hidden content visible

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Guys, guys, fret not ( unless you are playing guitar ) - All of the Photoshop regulars have moved to a newly established community on Facebook. It's only a fledgling beginning but has attracted a swarm of misplaced familiar family members. Get thou over there and sign on. It is one way that we can survive and keep our relished history together red hot and rollin'.

Just sign on and search for Photoshop Lounge

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Mentor ,
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Do they have points?

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nope, no points....no bannings....no deletion of posts....heck no moderation at all...well worth it.

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Nov 10, 2009 0
Guru ,
Nov 10, 2009

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They do offer free laundry and dry cleaning services.

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Nov 10, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Nov 10, 2009

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And you can always poke someone.

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Nov 10, 2009 0
Engaged ,
Nov 11, 2009

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Signup on Facebook?

Man, that is a scary concept - I might end up finding out what my son has really been up too...

   TLL

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Nov 11, 2009

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Wonder if there is one for Acrobat as well.

I'm not all that sure about Facebook anyway. After the article I read from a ZDnet news item yesterday.  You have set security in sveral different place before you really secure.

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Nov 11, 2009

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I don't see why FB should be such a security problem for you. You have practically posted your whole family tree on here before...

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Guru ,
Nov 11, 2009

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I know were off topic. But Facebook is not all that bad Phillip. As long as you don't post anything that you feel that the company you work for will fire you about then it is safe. Same with personal information. Just like in here you don't post your home phone number and address. some posters on here use their same sign-on name for all their web place forums and such.

There are several people that post here that if you google their posting name you can find their real name, address, phone number, e-mail address and where they work, their work phone number and e-mail address. That is not a very smart thing to do. Just stay safe. 

(Polo)

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Nov 11, 2009

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Not hardly.

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Participant ,
Nov 11, 2009

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PjonesCET wrote:

Wonder if there is one for Acrobat as well.

I'm not all that sure about Facebook anyway. After the article I read from a ZDnet news item yesterday.  You have set security in sveral different place before you really secure.

How is it I can tell form that comment that you are running windows?

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Participant ,
Nov 11, 2009

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Ozzwoman9 wrote:

I don't see why FB should be such a security problem for you. You have practically posted your whole family tree on here before...

And we can see right through that blue tie you are wearing.

Really, Seriously, FB is no different than the rest of the internet. Simply post and have fun. Be smart and don't post your bank account security code, or, if you want to, do it in bold!

: - )

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Nov 11, 2009

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Saskatchewanobie wrote:

How is it I can tell from that comment that you are running windows?

Not very well, as I haven't  even touched a windows machine since windows98 when I help a friend defrag their Hard drive. They didn't know how to).

I worked on all kinds of computers from TI-88 Comadore, Epson, Winn, AppleII, and Mac. My first computer of my own was Radio Shak Color computer II. My second was a V-Tech Clone of an AppleIIc. My first Mac was an SE-30. since then I've been strictly Mac My latest Model is a PowerBook 17".

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 11, 2009

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PjonesCET wrote:

I worked on all kinds of computers from TI-88 Comadore, Epson, Winn, AppleII, and Mac. My first computer of my own was Radio Shak Color computer II. My second was a V-Tech Clone of an AppleIIc. My first Mac was an SE-30. since then I've been strictly Mac My latest Model is a PowerBook 17".

And not one mention of Seamonkey. You're getting better Phil.

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Nov 11, 2009

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~graffiti wrote:

PjonesCET wrote:

I worked on all kinds of computers from TI-88 Comadore, Epson, Winn, AppleII, and Mac. My first computer of my own was Radio Shak Color computer II. My second was a V-Tech Clone of an AppleIIc. My first Mac was an SE-30. since then I've been strictly Mac My latest Model is a PowerBook 17".

And not one mention of Seamonkey. You're getting better Phil.

The comment was about Computers.  not Browsers.

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Nov 11, 2009

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I have my real name, general location, and two email addresses. Not much you're going to find on me...thousands of people have the same name as mine.

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Guru ,
Nov 11, 2009

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To find Mindy, just do a google satellite image of her local area and look for a large amount of parked cars.

Polo

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Nov 11, 2009

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Funny Mister! But most of them are covered or in my "junkyard" at the farm, so even that wouldn't reveal my secret lair!

Most you will find is my city I live in, but even that is misleading as I do not live within miles of that town.

Marko!

Message was edited by Jochem van Dieten to make hidden content visible

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Nov 11, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Nov 11, 2009

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Wow, things are getting really off topic in here. And no posts have been removed. Are you lurking in the shadows?

Marko!

Message was edited by Jochem van Dieten to make hidden content visible

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Nov 11, 2009 0