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And then, where have you disappeared to?

Participant ,
May 25, 2010

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There used to be a very active Adobe forum participant. He used to annoy me and he used to delight me. He most frequently came up with noteworthy answers.

I used to be a regular reader of the Adobe forums too, not so much a participant. Things at Adobe forums changed…

Now with the advent of CS5, I am browsing a bit again to find out the pros and cons and the bugs etc.

Buko! Are you also one of the casualties? I am missing you.

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And then, where have you disappeared to?

Participant ,
May 25, 2010

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There used to be a very active Adobe forum participant. He used to annoy me and he used to delight me. He most frequently came up with noteworthy answers.

I used to be a regular reader of the Adobe forums too, not so much a participant. Things at Adobe forums changed…

Now with the advent of CS5, I am browsing a bit again to find out the pros and cons and the bugs etc.

Buko! Are you also one of the casualties? I am missing you.

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May 25, 2010 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 25, 2010

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This forum is to discuss the forums, not products

You might want to go to a product forum where "Buko" was active and ask there

You should also use Buko in the title of your posting

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May 25, 2010 0
LEGEND ,
May 25, 2010

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John T Smith wrote:

This forum is to discuss the forums, not products

You might want to go to a product forum where "Buko" was active and ask there

You should also use Buko in the title of your posting

Buko was banned, along with a few others, so you won't find him on these forums any more.

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May 25, 2010 0
LEGEND ,
May 25, 2010

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John Joslin wrote:

Buko was banned, along with a few others, so you won't find him on these forums any more.

This must be serious then.  Was he in some gross professional misconduct situation?  Normally this only happens if one has sex with 144 nuns but I doubt if Buko was into this!  Perhaps god knows better!

hth

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May 25, 2010 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
May 25, 2010

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Yes, this is very serious. Buko was one of the

many casualties in a war that so far brute force seems to be winning. Two years of ideas and suggestions for the new version of the forums were first simply ignored, and then conveniently erased (by "error").


Extra linefeed kindly provided by the software.

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May 25, 2010 0
Enthusiast ,
Jun 08, 2010

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DWILCOX01 wrote:

This must be serious then.  Was he in some gross professional misconduct situation?  Normally this only happens if one has sex with 144 nuns but I doubt if Buko was into this!  Perhaps god knows better!

Buko... along with many others were banned when they objected to heavy-handed policing in this particular forum and, largely, by a couple or so particularly heavy-handed moderators. Sadly, in the process, the Adobe forums lost some great contributors in various of their forums. Others dropped out due to the killing of the NNTP access.

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Jun 08, 2010 0
Advocate ,
Jun 08, 2010

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shunithD wrote on 6/8/2010 5:59 PM:

Buko... along with many others were banned when they objected to heavy-handed policing in this particular forum

Buko was banned when he overstepped the boundaries of the probation he

got for fighting a vendetta with another forum participant.

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Jun 08, 2010 0
Mentor ,
Jun 09, 2010

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John T Smith wrote:

…You might want to go to a product forum where "Buko" was active and ask there…

Actually, Buko was exceedingly active in this forum here—and that turned out be his misfortune, precisely.

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Jun 09, 2010 0
Contributor ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Now, would not be too soon to lift their ban.  That is, if they care enough to contribute here after the shoddy treatment some received.  It's not reasonable to ban the most knowledgeable and helpful people.

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Jun 10, 2010 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Unfortunately, it

would seem that those responsible for these forums are so

convinced that they did the right thing, that they would not even dream of re

vising the situation of any of the banned participants. Violence generates more violence, and most of the banned ones are quick tempered, so their expulsions were unavoidable once the situation began to escalate. Sadly, many more have been gradually leaving the forums on their own afterwards, and there is no longer the sense of community characterizing the old forums, whith in-depth discussions of important aspects of the different products, from which everyone learned something.


Extra linefeeds kindly provided by the software.

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Jun 10, 2010 0
LEGEND ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Jun 10, 2010 0
Advocate ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Q Photo wrote on 6/10/2010 1:14 PM:

Now, would not be too soon to lift their ban.

People were banned for specific behavior. As long as they have not made

a credible statement that they will not revert to that behavior again,

never would be too soon to lift the ban.

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Jun 10, 2010 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Jochem van Dieten wrote:

Q Photo wrote on 6/10/2010 1:14 PM:

Now, would not be too soon to lift their ban.

People were banned for specific behavior. As long as they have not made

a credible statement that they will not revert to that behavior again,

never would be too soon to lift the ban.

You mean, sort of begging on their knees? While banned?


If I was banned, I don't think I would be willing to beg to be redmitted. Even if I knew how to do it while banned.

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Jun 10, 2010 0
Mentor ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Were the given a formally written email detailing what the moderator thought was the reason(s). So they would know what they were banned for?

If they don't know what they did. How can they beg for forgiveness?

Plus that's a tall order for one to do any way, if they have any pride in themselves. That that does is show they are wimps, they can be grovelled into submission.

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Jun 10, 2010 0
LEGEND ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Come on guys. This was discussed to death already...

Agreeing to act cordially is not exactly begging and grovelling!

Harbs

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Jun 10, 2010 0
Advocate ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Claudio González wrote on 6/10/2010 5:11 PM:

Jochem van Dieten wrote :

>>

>> People were banned for specific behavior. As long as they have not made

>> a credible statement that they will not revert to that behavior again,

>> never would be too soon to lift the ban.

You mean, sort of begging on their knees?

If people think they can make a credible statement that way I am sure

something can be scheduled. Though I would personally be opposed to

lifting the ban for anybody who does so: I want to know about future

behavior, not about past behavior.

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Jun 10, 2010 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 10, 2010

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...a credible statement that they will not revert to that behavior again...

Jochem, I am an old man, and I could not possibly promise truthfully that I will not react the same under similar circumstances. Whatever the circumstances and whatever my reactions were. And I fear that many younger people may feel the same.

Though I would personally be opposed to lifting the ban for anybody who does so: I want to know about future behavior, not about past behavior.


But they were banned for past behaviour, not for future behaviour.

The doors do seem to be closed for ever, and most probably also from the other side. Time to stop daydreaming, then.

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Jun 10, 2010 0
Enthusiast ,
Jun 11, 2010

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Claudio González wrote:

Unfortunately, it

would seem that those responsible for these forums are so

convinced that they did the right thing, that they would not even dream of re

vising the situation of any of the banned participants. Violence generates more violence, and most of the banned ones are quick tempered, so their expulsions were unavoidable once the situation began to escalate. Sadly, many more have been gradually leaving the forums on their own afterwards, and there is no longer the sense of community characterizing the old forums, whith in-depth discussions of important aspects of the different products, from which everyone learned something.


Extra linefeeds kindly provided by the software.

ditto john. ...

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Jun 11, 2010 0
Contributor ,
Jun 11, 2010

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So, the ban is lifetime and there are no reprieves.  Seems a bit extreme considering the banned include some (nearly all) of the most helpful people.  Makes no sense to me.  Reminds me of the ridicules zero tolerance rules that gets a girl suspended from school for having a single Midol tablet on her person.

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Jun 11, 2010 0
Enthusiast ,
Jun 12, 2010

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Q Photo wrote:

So, the ban is lifetime and there are no reprieves.  Seems a bit extreme considering the banned include some (nearly all) of the most helpful people.  Makes no sense to me. 

Guess it was an ego problem... and a quick-trigger finger on the delete button...

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Jun 12, 2010 0
Mentor ,
Jun 12, 2010

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Claudio González wrote:

. . . . Sadly, many more have been gradually leaving the forums on their own afterwards, and there is no longer the sense of community characterizing the old forums, whith in-depth discussions of important aspects of the different products, from which everyone learned something.


Extra linefeeds kindly provided by the software.

There has been at least one forum participant. That has said they have no interest what so ever in a sense of community any kind of support forum. That if they want a sense of community the go to the local pub or resturaunt and hang out with real friends.

Evidently, everfyone is supposed to unfriendly. Just answer as if they don't care whether the person asking the question pays attention or not.

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Jun 12, 2010 0
New Here ,
Jun 02, 2010

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who cares anyway?

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Jun 02, 2010 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 02, 2010

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Obviously, not you. You seem to be satisfied with the forums as they are, and not to need the kind of help those who have left or have been banned could give.

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Jun 02, 2010 0
LEGEND ,
Jun 08, 2010

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Gone but not forgotten.  

gbnf.jpg

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Jun 08, 2010 0
LEGEND ,
Jun 09, 2010

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Two out of the top five banned?

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Jun 09, 2010 0
Mentor ,
Jun 09, 2010

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Curt Y wrote:

Two out of the top five banned?

Actually, those two are the only ones out of the top posters who remain on the list even some ten months after being banned.

If you take the list of top participants at the time the banning occurred, you would have to say that at least five of the top participants were banned once you add Phosphor±fourdots (!), Ann Shelbourne and Kath Howard.  I may be overlooking other top posters who were banned, not to mention those who left on their own.

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Jun 09, 2010 0
Mentor ,
Jun 09, 2010

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Tai Lao wrote:

…you would have to say that at least five of the top participants were banned…

In fact, make that: the top five participants were banned.

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Jun 09, 2010 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 09, 2010

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Tai Lao wrote:

Tai Lao wrote:

…you would have to say that at least five of the top participants were banned…

In fact, make that: the top five participants were banned.


... and it shows in all the product forums I visit regularly. But then, "they will soon be replaced by newcomers". Or so we were told, only that it doesn't show.

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Jun 09, 2010 0
New Here ,
Jun 09, 2010

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I actually know little or nothing about this "forum", other than the fact that negotiating it is a bit awkward, i.e. easier to find commercial-pages than actual no-axe-being-ground user help sites. I could be wrong, but just from my limited exposure to this site I feel that I can learn more elsewhere.

Having lived and worked in Mainland China for quite some time, I necessarily learned how to quickly discern the obvious - and the not so obvious.

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Jun 09, 2010 0
Mentor ,
Jun 09, 2010

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  謝謝

incurablegeek wrote:

… just from my limited exposure to this site I feel that I can learn more elsewhere…

That is very true now.  The few remaining knowledgeable contributors, including the volunteer Adobe engineers, are busy answering rank-beginner's questions and, fortunately, finding and acknowledging bugs in the software

All in life is fleeting…

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Jun 09, 2010 0
New Here ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Again I feel like Sgt. Schultz in Hogan's Heroes, "I know nothing, I see nothing ..."

of the past. All I see is an ongoing Soap Opera with heavy-handed words like banned being tossed about like in the Marcos-era Philippines or present-day Mainland China. Just a first impression, mind you - but a real first for any group I have been privileged to become a member.

Suggestions:

1) Why not give what some deem to be troublemakers and others consider to be valuable assets and sources of information, why not give these folks a conditional second chance? Without all the totalitarian requests for grovelling and the like. When you make a person grovel, you make an enemy. Suggested reading: Sun Tzu's The Art of War - much more insightful than Machiavelli's The Prince --- if and only if you choose to live by its simple advice.

2) Why not end this "pissing contest" here and now - and get on with the real work of this very valuable group?

3) In another group this problem of Beginner Question vs Advanced User Question is handled by a bifurcation of the group into, you guessed it, Beginner and Advanced. In one of my Win 7 Groups, for example, I have VIP (paid) Status because of my serious interest in and more than casual knowledge of MS OS.

4) And in so doing, please cease and desist the bashing of Beginners, no matter what you think of them. Correct me if I'm wrong but most of us at one time or another were Beginners - and ask the occasional Stupid Question. I know that I still do.

Now that's about as constructive as I can be. Sure hope it helps.

IncurableGeek

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Jun 10, 2010 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Hi i

ncurablegeek,


1. Your first suggestion is not for us plain users to comment, but I know that some of the banned ones would have to be begged before considering the idea of coming back. This is why I said that the door seems tightly closed from both sides and we should stop daydreaming.


2. I totally agree with your second suggestion. I did try not to do any pissing, and apologize if I failed.


3. In the old product forums, and in the new ones I still frequent, I have never felt the need for such a separation. I even remember cases of apparently naive or even foolish questions from beginners that developed into very interesting, profound, and enlightening discussions.


4. In the old product forums, and in the new ones I still frequent, bashing of beginners has never been a common practice. There are of course cases of rude answers, but these are nor welcome, and certainly they are not encouraged by "the regulars".


Extra linefeed kindly provided by the software.

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Jun 10, 2010 0
New Here ,
Jun 10, 2010

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So sorry, Mr. Gonzales, if my use of the pronoun "you" was misunderstood as singular. I intended it for those (unnamed) who felt that some "Beginners" were asking rather boorish questions that could be answered by a careful read of the manual. As a rather open and confessional person myself, I must admit that I quit buying and reading manuals way back about 15 years ago. I now use only them as reference materials, looking for answers by searching the index and of course the net, which is populated by some really knowledgeable and helpful people.

You sound like a decent and positive human being, intent on trying to solve what too many believe to be a problem. Perhaps one way to assure that such a problem never recur is to dispense with this silly-ass hierarchy of Land Owners and Peasants. I would hope never to be anything in any group more than a "plain user". Please rest assured that my ego does not require titles, labels, awards or trophies to bolster itself.

Why not instead, if the group feels that a certain member, is, Heaven Forbid, overstepping his bounds, then why not implement why I like to call "Democracy" (a strange concept I admit).

Whereby a poll is taken of all us "plain users", i.e. everyone, each having a reason and a vote - For or Against a ban?  ("I don't like the SOB" not qualifying as a reason)

Regards,

Dennis, a truly IncurableGeek

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 10, 2010

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De

nnis, since I started visiting these forums, it has been normal

for participant

s to address each other by their first ('Christian'

) names. Fortunately, this is something that hasn't changed.


Don't worry, I didn't take your message as personal. It's only that, if the information in your profile is correct (and a quick look at the titles of the threads in this forum will show that this is not always so), then you have no way of knowing what happened here, and therefore I tried to give some answers to your queries.


Basic questions that are answered in the Help menu of a program will always be asked -and ansered- in forums such as these. However, when answering that type of question becomes the almost exclusive task of participants in some of the product forums, something is wrong. Old timers have a right to miss the very valuable contributions of all those who have left or have been banned.


The difference between plain users and moderators + Adobe employees has always been there and cannot and should not be eliminated. Unfortunately, we have also lost some excellent moderators, and some very helpful employees -Nanguyen for example- have not been seen here for a long time.


The present status of these forums seems very far from a democracy, and I don't think that Adobe cares enough about the forums to be aware of this fact and its consequences.


And of course we are running the risk of being censored for going off topic...


Extra linefeeds kindly provided by the software.

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Jun 10, 2010 0
Mentor ,
Jun 10, 2010

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Claudio González wrote:

Hi i

ncurablegeek,

-------------------snip-------------------

4. In the old product forums, and in the new ones I still frequent, bashing of beginners has never been a common practice. There are of course cases of rude answers, but these are nor welcome, and certainly they are not encouraged by "the regulars".


Extra linefeed kindly provided by the software.

Claudio,

this depends upon the forum. On at least Acrobat Mac there is no distinction between between "Newbie" and "Certified Expert" and no question is considered "dumb"

Now I've frequented the DreamWeaver Forum in the past and recently as well. Now that's another case altogether. I was Newbie at one time trying to do web pages. (Even today on my own personal website many of the experts on the DW are rather condescending of my work Because I make heavy use Tables.). Back when I was really new at such. I asked obvious newbie questions. they were no "Dumb" question just neophyte questions. I got nothing. I also got the feeling unless you were board certified you wouldn't get any answers.  Recently I visited just to see if things had changed under Adobe (back then it was Macromedia). I didn't see any changes. there were newbie question met with dead silence.

I've been to Photoshop to look around and I get the same impression. So it depends upon the forums.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 10, 2010

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I was only speaking of the old forums I frequented and the new ones I frequent. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

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New Here ,
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Hey Phillip, I really found your following comments interesting:

"I was Newbie at one time trying to do web pages. (Even today on my own  personal website many of the experts on the DW are rather condescending  of my work Because I make heavy use Tables.)"

Why so interesting? Well, because mainstream science has a history of excommunicating scientists who question the prevailing research methodology. Take cancer research for example. Not one significant step towards understanding or finding a magic-bullet cure for the Big C has been made.

Why? Because the whole research methodology is wrong (trying to render a constantly morphing phenomenon into a static, killable entity). However, if a researcher wants to get funding, he must stay well within the flock, even though he may fully understand the futility of such an approach.

I'm 63 years old, going on 16. I constantly bang heads with youngsters who were not even born when I started working with computers. I do so in an ongoing and rather successful effort not to become fossilized like many folks my age. I would therefore suggest the possibility that "many of the experts" you mention are already frozen in time and not really capable of independent thought.

I could be wrong in this case, but the whole concept of "towing the line", being a good boy, whatever, so as not to risk ostracism from a group, that whole milieu I find completely abhorrent. Worse yet, it is not constructive or productive.

Kinda hope that helps somewhat. 

IncurableGeek

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Jun 10, 2010 0
LEGEND ,
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I do not disagree with any part of your assertions, and observations, but must add that the "cancer analogy" might well not fit in the very near future. You might want to look at The Translational Genomics Research Institute. They are making some great strides with many common cancers. Much of this research is being done in conjunction with St. Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix. They have not zeroed in on the bullseye yet, but the shots are getting much closer and the grouping is getting tiny. Similar results are being gained in neurological disorders, in conjunction with the Barrow Neurological Institute, part of St. Joseph's Hospital. T-Gen is just a small part of the combined research consortium, with several other similar entities.

Also, there are some very promising results in the research to repair the heart, at a structural level, by basically injecting a "gene soup," and letting the heart muscles regenerate. Shades of Terminator. This is being done in conjunction with Chandler Regional Hospital, part of CHW Arizona, parent organization of St. Joe's and BNI.

Not quite a "silver bullet" yet, but very, very close. Soon, it might be possible to create "designer drugs," matched to the exact patient, and to the cancer, or use the patient's genes to mix up that "soup." Instead of treating a universal cancer, a physician could tailor things for that specific patient and that specific cancer and treat it directly.

Here is hoping that they do hit that bullseye, and soon too. Might be really useful for a couple of old guys, like us. I'd like to see the cancer analogy become moot in my lifetime.

Still, I know what you mean, and do agree. I find that I get trapped in my own "box" too often, and am always ready to take a peek outside, as I will learn something.

Hunt

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Jun 12, 2010 0
New Here ,
Jun 12, 2010

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Bill, I must thank you for your very substantive response and the information regarding the "present" state of cancer research. In line with your advice, I shall do as I say and check out the latest  progress in cancer research.

More importantly, what I can extrapolate from your comments is to always keep a positive and goal-oriented outlook, the alternative one of pessimism leading to nothing more than cognitive stagnation. Which we have here in these very sad soap-opera forums.

What I was trying to say with an admittedly flawed analogy is that the bitterness and infighting I see in this group is a real first for me. It reminds me of the Japanese expression "mizu kakeron", literally translated, and quite funny I think, "pouring water argument". Endless and pointless - and that is exactly what I see here. So very sad.

And I thought it was a Help Forum.

I therefore joined the forums to learn what I don't

Funny thing: I asked a very simple question about flash

But my question was never

Now may the whining and complaining recommence.

That will be all now.

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