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Banned Participants Question

Engaged ,
Dec 07, 2009

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I keep getting wind of different longtime faithful participants who have been banned. I can't help but think that many of these are a mistake. So many who are gone were among the most helpful when users needed help.

Can someone who is in authority please offer an explanation? And can you please reassess this situation?

Thank you for your time…

Linda

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Banned Participants Question

Engaged ,
Dec 07, 2009

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I keep getting wind of different longtime faithful participants who have been banned. I can't help but think that many of these are a mistake. So many who are gone were among the most helpful when users needed help.

Can someone who is in authority please offer an explanation? And can you please reassess this situation?

Thank you for your time…

Linda

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Explorer ,
Dec 07, 2009

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I am not an authority but I do think it was all part of the plan...To do a complete turnover. To eliminate anyone who might oppose this terrible change that has taken place. The displacement of long time Adobe fans with the Macromedia ....faithful?....  Just a thought...

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LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Hi Cindy

I respectfully disagree. Basically I believe that what happened was Adobe fell a bit lax on enforcing good conduct in a few places. They only have so many folks to monitor hundreds of forums. So they appointed or allowed different folks to become moderators and help out. What has happened is the direct result of some folks taking things too far with bad behavior and off color comments that were directed at specific individuals. Essentially, ignoring stated policy. Even to the point of taunting moderators.

I have no doubt that there were some that were good contributors. But offering help with products and being far too critical of things that cannot be changed are different things.

In my own opinion there never was any sort of plan. Only some pretty awful reactions by a few very vocal folks. In some cases, it would almost seem that the folks wanted banning to occur in order to become a martyr for the cause to point out how "unjust" it is to expect certain behavior.

Cheers... Rick

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Engaged ,
Dec 07, 2009

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What about a member by the screen name of Q Photo? He was always very polite, and often attempted to make peace, and yet it came to my attention recently that he also was banned. He has no idea why. He sent an email but never received a response.

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Explorer ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Hi Rick,  I see you are an "expert" of DW. So unless some of the Photoshop experts or Photography experts or print design experts or pre-press experts or Illustrator experts (you get my point) step up to say otherwise I stand by my previous assessment.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Hi there

Q Photo? I don't recall seeing that name in this particular forum. If s/he was banned, it must have happened in a different forum?

Note that it is my understanding that all a moderator may do is suggest to Adobe that someone be banned. It is up to Adobe employees themselves to actually ban the person. And I also understand that this only occurs after they review what was in question and agree that what was presented warranted banning.

I think it's worth pointing out that banning a poster likely takes considerably more effort than one would think. Because of that, I would find it very odd that a host of folks were banned for no obvious or particular reason. I might liken it to deciding to put a stop-payment on a check you have written. You carefully consider it before deciding to move forward.

Cheers... Rick

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LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Hi Cindy

No, I'm only a Dreamweaver user. I'm an Adobe Captivate and Adobe RoboHelp Community and Certified Expert for those two products. I'm also an Adobe Certified Instructor for each. Dreamweaver is just another of the many products I use.

Also, I'm simply another forum member as you are. I'm not speaking for Adobe.

I'm guessing that you are seeing some things going on in other fora that I'm unaware of. I only know about and participate in this one as well as a few select others. I've not seen any banning of helpful folks in the fora I frequent. (Well, the fora I montitor outside of this one)

Cheers... Rick

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Dec 07, 2009

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I was going to reply, but thought it better. I was taught that there are times when it's better to remain silent, only that I don't always remember to do so. Fortunately I remembered this time.

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Dec 07, 2009 0
Explorer ,
Dec 07, 2009

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This one is India Research and Development

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/executivebios/nareshgupta.html

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LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Hi Cindy

What is the purpose of the link? I'm not making the connection? Are you claiming Mr. Gupta is responsible for banning folks or is behind "the plan" you mentioned?

Cheers... Rick

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Dec 07, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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You remembered not to post the reply you just did?

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me.

Cheers... Rick

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Contributor ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Q Photo was a visitor to this forum and I believe I am correct when I say he was banned from here as well.  I concur with LRK's comments that it makes no sense to me either.  Q was primarily on the Photography forum, which is the way both LRK and I know him.

As far as mods not having the authority to ban, well if they don't they certainly seem to be able to travel up the ladder of personnel very quickly as there are some here that were banned fairly quickly.

It does seem to be part of a plan, IMHO.  Far too many good people lost to blame it all on bad manners.

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Contributor ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

You remembered not to post the reply you just did?

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me.

Cheers... Rick

OMG, Rick, don't be daft!  He obviously was going to say something different, decided against it and let us know that it's better that he said "nothing" than say what he had in mind.  It's his way of letting us know he has some thoughts on the subject, but chose to keep them to himself.

I really can't believe I just took the time to explain that!

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Dec 07, 2009

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If you can read in my comment a reply to anything that has been written in this thread, you are a much better reader than me.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Hi Hopper

Sounds like you are "Q Photo aware"

You say it makes no sense to you as well. This would lead me to believe that whomever this is, was arbitrarily banned with no justification? That seems odd to me. I'm wondering if a simple typo was made and that ID got caught in something that shouldn't have been.

Just wondering... Rick

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LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Geez Hopper, I wasn't trying to pick a fight

That's what I inferred. But if you don't have something to add to the conversation, why even bother to post then? Just to "gig" folks? Seems a waste of bandwidth and possibly bordering on inflammatory to me.

By posting that you were taught it's better to remain silent, you are going against the teaching by making that statement, no?

Just sayin... Rick

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Enthusiast ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Cindy- wrote:

This one is India Research and Development

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/executivebios/nareshgupta.html

Seems highly qualified... what's your point?

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Explorer ,
Dec 07, 2009

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shunithD wrote:

Cindy- wrote:

This one is India Research and Development

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/executivebios/nareshgupta.html

Seems highly qualified... what's your point?

I don't know how that posted on this forum. I thought it was a private email. So this was posted in error. It is not relevant to the conversation, sorry.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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I remember seeing Q Photo posting here.  So if he was banned "by mistake", what is the proper procedure to rectify the mistake?

Obviously, contacting Adobe by himself does not do any good, and posting here at the forum does neither.

Captiv8r wrote:

Note that it is my understanding that all a moderator may do is suggest to Adobe that someone be banned.

Then surely you moderators have the power to suggest to Adobe to look at a mistaken ban?

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Dec 08, 2009

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pwillener wrote:

I remember seeing Q Photo posting here.  So if he was banned "by mistake", what is the proper procedure to rectify the mistake?

Obviously, contacting Adobe by himself does not do any good, and posting here at the forum does neither.

Captiv8r wrote:

Note that it is my understanding that all a moderator may do is suggest to Adobe that someone be banned.

Then surely you moderators have the power to suggest to Adobe to look at a mistaken ban?

Pat, this is an excellent question (emphasis added by me), and I would think it deserves a serious and prompt answer. Specially because, in this case, several independent users have respectfully questioned the banning.

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Dec 08, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 09, 2009

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Cindy- wrote:

Hi Rick,  I see you are an "expert" of DW. So unless some of the Photoshop experts or Photography experts or print design experts or pre-press experts or Illustrator experts (you get my point) step up to say otherwise I stand by my previous assessment.

I moderate the InDesign forum, so I guess I qualify as a "print design expert." I normally stay far away form this forum, and I've never had anyone banned from the InDesign Forum (mods don't do the banning, only suggest candidates). I have thought about it once or twice, though, but I've found deleting individual posts or offensive material has been sufficient to get the message through there. I have no tolerance for personal insults, threats and similar irrelevant and non-helpful posting in what is supposed to be a forum to aid other users.

The comments and lounge forums are a bit more free-wheeling, but there is still a stated policy regarding behavior. I think it's safe to say that most moderators felt that policy enforcement was too lax for too long which led to the need to take drastic action. I personally recommended shutting down the Lounge completely at one time.

There were, indeed, a number of helpful (in the regular product forums) "regular" posters who were banned. With the exception of Q Photo, about whom I know precisely nothing, I would have to say that the original list was completely justified. All of the users on that list were names I recognized as repeat namecallers and rabblerousers. Some were probably victims of baiting by other, worse, offenders, but if you rise (or sink) to that level and take the bait, you get caught. It's not reasonable to treat offensive comments and commenters differently because they happen to have provided good information elsewhere in the past. I'm a little surprised the list wasn't longer.

Different moderators have different personality quirks and styles, and all of us rub some people the wrong way sometimes. We also have good and bad days, just like the rest of you. Most users probably spend less than an hour per day on the forums, posting a particular question or offering advice if they have a spare minute. If other mods are like me, they read hundreds of posts every day, respond to half of them, and neglect their paid work. Nobody pays us to do this. It's a labor of love and we ought to be able to enjoy it without being vilified for trying to keep a bit or order.

NOBODY outside Jive thinks these forums are perfect. They are what we have to work with, however, and hearing the same whining from the same people over and over gets old very quickly. If you have a constructive suggstion for improvement, by all means make it, but don't expect to see it implemented tomorrow. Change takes time. If you make the choice to participate here, you do so knowing what is here, and nobody has forced anyone to be here.

I'll craw back under my rock now and hide from the flames I know this will generate.

Peter

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Dec 09, 2009 0
Advisor ,
Dec 09, 2009

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Cindy- wrote:

Hi Rick,  I see you are an "expert" of DW. So unless some of the Photoshop experts or Photography experts or print design experts or pre-press experts or Illustrator experts (you get my point) step up to say otherwise I stand by my previous assessment.

I am also from the Adobe side; from the video products world.

I highly dislike the Jive SW.  Like most (if not all)  here; I think it is pretty terrible.   But despite the jive sw; the forums I help moderate are helpful and friendly.  No Banning has been needed there ever that I know of.  I make my opinions known about this Jive sw to adobe, but I do so with respect and without name calling.  Those on the ban list are not there because they complain about Jive.  They are there for breaking the forum guidelines; most notably showing repeated disrespect to other users.

Adobe employees do monitor the forums.   In fact the last time a Sr Adobe employee posted here in this forum; instead of taking advantage of his ear and posting helpful critiques; several users here resorted to personal attacks and name calling.  It is more than appropriate for Adobe to take action to stop this kind of behavior. 

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Dec 09, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 09, 2009

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Hi Peter,

Very well said (like usual).

Harbs

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Dec 09, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 09, 2009

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Hi Harbs,

I guess you better duck for cover now, too.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 11, 2009

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I'm guessing that you are seeing some things going on in other fora that I'm unaware of. I only know about and participate in this one as well as a few select others.

Rick,

As most of us have to limit our participation to just a handful of fora, all that most of us can offer are observations, predicated on those fora. I have four that I frequent, and another 4-5 that I drop in on, when I have the time. This is hardly a full overview of all Adobe fora, and is extremely limited. From my observations in those particular fora, I have only seen one person banned, and that poster did the "end run," with maybe three sign-ins. Still, it was obvious to most, who was behind those different personae. Considering the number of posters in my frequented fora, and some of the anti-Adobe comments in many, that seems like a tiny percentage.

Now, I will admit that this particular forum does generate a great deal of unrest, and I can certainly agree that there have been, and still are, problem with the fora, and many of these can likely be traced to the software of choice. Still, considering that state, I am not aware of that many subscribers, who have been banned. Maybe I just do not recognize their absence, or was totally unaware of their presence, in the first place. As this is not one of my main Adobe fora, I probably just missed many, and did not notice their demise. However, Jochem posted some numbers on posts for Adobe fora, and two of my favorites were in the upper group, though not at the top of the heap, so I feel that I do get a fair picture of the product fora.

I would also imagine that Adobe would be anything but cavalier regarding the banning of forum subscribers. From what I have observed over the decades, they are very lenient. Other fora are not so. They are ruled with an iron fist, and if one does not like it, then they are welcome to move on and post elsewhere.

Maybe I have just been naive, or am blinded by my desire to support other users, of the programs that I know. Time might tell.

Hunt

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Dec 11, 2009 0
Advisor ,
Dec 07, 2009

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LRK,

To answer your question; People are only banned if they repeatedly violate the forum guidelines.

javascript:;

Only Adobe employees can make the decision to ban a user and only Adobe employees have the authority to execute a ban.

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Engaged ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Curt Wrigley wrote:

LRK,

To answer your question; People are only banned if they repeatedly violate the forum guidelines.

Forum etiquette and best practices

Only Adobe employees can make the decision to ban a user and only Adobe employees have the authority to execute a ban.

I seriously doubt that the participant with the screen name QPhoto violated the forum guidelines. It's just not his character to behave in a way that is troublesome. He himself does not know what he did to be banned. This vague rhetoric is annoying. I don't know what to think about you people.

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Explorer ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Watch it Linda, you might get banned. But then who really cares? The Adobe forums are gone.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Hi LRK

I'm a bit puzzled about what you are expecting here. Are you expecting the Adobe folks to answer to you as to why a particular forum user was banned?

The thing is, you and me and Curt and most of the others here are all quite simply forum users. Plain and simple. Some of us have simply volunteered our time and are helping Adobe by moderating in our own fora.

I might expect that banning any individual is likely a privacy issue between Adobe and the banned individual. Because of that reason alone I might imagine that Adobe would refuse to discuss it.

All that Curt and I have done is to express what we understand are the reasons a forum user may be banned. Assuming you have contact with QPhoto, I would encourage you to ask them to contact Adobe about it. After all, a human had to make the judgment to ban. Perhaps they made a mistake. Heck, we are all human here. Surely if someone were to have made a mistake they would be willing to re-examine things and perhaps view it in a different light or figure out where things went wrong.

Cheers... Rick

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Enthusiast ,
Dec 07, 2009

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LRK 2 wrote:

... This vague rhetoric is annoying. I don't know what to think about you people.

Yeah... it's all smoke and mirrors... butter won't melt in anyone's mouth

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Engaged ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

Hi LRK

I'm a bit puzzled about what you are expecting here. Are you expecting the Adobe folks to answer to you as to why a particular forum user was banned?

The thing is, you and me and Curt and most of the others here are all quite simply forum users. Plain and simple. Some of us have simply volunteered our time and are helping Adobe by moderating in our own fora.

I might expect that banning any individual is likely a privacy issue between Adobe and the banned individual. Because of that reason alone I might imagine that Adobe would refuse to discuss it.

All that Curt and I have done is to express what we understand are the reasons a forum user may be banned. Assuming you have contact with QPhoto, I would encourage you to ask them to contact Adobe about it. After all, a human had to make the judgment to ban. Perhaps they made a mistake. Heck, we are all human here. Surely if someone were to have made a mistake they would be willing to re-examine things and perhaps view it in a different light or figure out where things went wrong.

Cheers... Rick

Rick,

The user who goes by the name QPhoto is following this thread. He mentioned that he did send an email inquiry but never hear back.

I am just a little confused at the widespread banning. I realize that you are a volunteer and your job is not always easy. I respect your willingness to assist others. I also realize that things have gotten out of control in these forums from time to time. But I've been a little puzzled at who has been banned and who has not been banned at times. I've seen and heard about some who have appeared to stir up trouble on a continual basis. Then it seems the reactionary parties were the only ones banned.

I am a person who really wants to believe the best in people. I like people in general, all kinds of people. I don't like confronting these issues, and I don't like to put myself in an adversarial position. Truly I don't. But I am saddened by the attitude toward others whom I have had the privilege of getting to know, and have countless times benefitted from their advice. Speaking of more than QPhoto at this point. From what I understand, a large percentage of the long term support base has been booted out.

Guess I've said what I wanted to say. I don't intend to fight or argue or stir up trouble. Just wanted to see if there was an answer to some of the questions that myself and others have had over recent events.

Linda

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Mentor ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

Hi LRK

I'm a bit puzzled about what you are expecting here. Are you expecting the Adobe folks to answer to you as to why a particular forum user was banned?

The thing is, you and me and Curt and most of the others here are all quite simply forum users. Plain and simple. Some of us have simply volunteered our time and are helping Adobe by moderating in our own fora.

I might expect that banning any individual is likely a privacy issue between Adobe and the banned individual. Because of that reason alone I might imagine that Adobe would refuse to discuss it.

All that Curt and I have done is to express what we understand are the reasons a forum user may be banned. Assuming you have contact with QPhoto, I would encourage you to ask them to contact Adobe about it. After all, a human had to make the judgment to ban. Perhaps they made a mistake. Heck, we are all human here. Surely if someone were to have made a mistake they would be willing to re-examine things and perhaps view it in a different light or figure out where things went wrong.

Cheers... Rick

LR2 said:

What about a member by the screen name of Q Photo? He was always very polite, and often attempted to make peace, and yet it came to my attention recently that he also was banned. He has no idea why. He sent an email but never received a response.

It appears that said individual did and his email was ignored.

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Explorer ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Linda, don't expect to get any real answers here or anywhere about these forums. Many have tried and the whole thing seems to be one big ugly joke.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Hi Linda

I wish I had a good answer for you. I honestly do. Like you, I tend to assume the best in folks myself. Well, until they prove themselves differently anyway.

I'm assuming that Adobe is acting in good faith as well. Unfortunately I have no experience with QPhoto and if this person was banned unnecessarily, I feel for them as it would seem an unjust slap in the face!

I do suppose that it's possible that maybe wherever QPhoto hangs out, he managed to get on the wrong side of a moderator? (Hey, I'm sure it could happen) Then again, I would think if that were honestly the case, and if Adobe is true to their word that they review a situation before banning actually occurs, that such a situation would be rather obvious and they wouldn't simply ban someone based on pure words from a moderator. Then again, I guess only Adobe knows for sure on that.

As I understand things, a ban isn't necessarily permanent. So perhaps Adobe will be in contact with QPhoto soon and resolve matters.

I appreciate your candor and maturity in calmly discussing the issue at hand here. It's really unfortunate that so many of these threads seem to devolve so quickly when we are expressing our own views and whatnot. So it's refereshing!

Sincerely... Rick

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Engaged ,
Dec 07, 2009

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PjonesCET wrote:

LR2 said:

What about a member by the screen name of Q Photo? He was always very polite, and often attempted to make peace, and yet it came to my attention recently that he also was banned. He has no idea why. He sent an email but never received a response.

It appears that said individual did and his email was ignored.

Thank you for paying attention and re-emphasizing my earlier point Phillip.

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Dec 07, 2009 0
Engaged ,
Dec 07, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

As I understand things, a ban isn't necessarily permanent. So perhaps Adobe will be in contact with QPhoto soon and resolve matters.

I appreciate your candor and maturity in calmly discussing the issue at hand here. It's really unfortunate that so many of these threads seem to devolve so quickly when we are expressing our own views and whatnot. So it's refereshing!

Sincerely... Rick

Thank you Rick. I do hope that there can be resolve with some of these issues, and hopefully with QPhoto in particular for now. I'm sure most of us would like to feel we can communicate on a better level and be able to work things out in the future.

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Advocate ,
Dec 08, 2009

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LRK 2 wrote on 12/8/2009 4:55 AM:

I am just a little confused at the widespread banning.

Widespread? Just who all are do you mean who wasn't discussed here yet?

I've seen and heard about some who have appeared to stir up trouble on a continual basis. Then it seems the reactionary parties were the only ones banned.

I watch the abuse queue pretty closely and I can honestly say that

anybody who is reported for abuse on a continual basis is watched very

closely. But if people react by throwing oil on the flames instead of

simply clicking the report abuse link they might end up in the abuse

queue too.

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Dec 08, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 08, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

...But if people react by throwing oil on the flames instead of

simply clicking the report abuse link they might end up in the abuse

queue too.

I have never seen member Q Photo behaving like that.  He (she?) always posted in the most respectful manner.

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LEGEND ,
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Hi Linda

I've asked about QPhoto on another list I monitor. No information yet other than to hear more reports that nobody recalls any missteps (intentional or otherwise) by QPhoto.

QPhoto, if you are reading these posts as has been suggested, can you please get in touch with me via private E-Mail? My address is rstone75 (at) kc (dot) rr (dot) com. I'll be happy to do whatever I can to assist.

Note that as I've said before, I'm a forum user same as the rest of you. So there is no guarantee that Adobe will listen to me any more than they will listen to you.

Cheers... Rick

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Dec 08, 2009 0
Engaged ,
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Rick,

Thank you very much for listening and being considerate. I'm relaying this information to QPhoto and I trust he is still following this thread.

Linda

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Dec 08, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Dec 08, 2009

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LRK 2 wrote:

Thank you very much for listening and being considerate. I'm relaying this information to QPhoto and I trust he is still following this thread.

Linda

He's banned... how can he follow the thread? If you mean in purely reading capacity, well... but why should he, if he has any self respect? I think, Adobe should just email and apologise. After all, and more than all, he's a valued contributor... and they're fast running out of these thanks to the ham-handed efforts of certain 'moderators", shall we say?

So sad, so sad

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Dec 08, 2009 0
Engaged ,
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Another participant who contacted me about being banned is Kath Howard. Kath was very active for many years in the GoLive Forums. She has helped countless users find answers to their questions. Kath cannot get answers to her questions as to why she was banned, for how long, or if she will ever be re-instated.

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Dec 08, 2009 0
Explorer ,
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Linda, I re-assert. This is the way "they" want it. Kathy was part of the old Adobe forum group. She probably made too many objections (valid I might add) to the new and inferior forum format.

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Advocate ,
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LRK 2 wrote on 12/8/2009 8:18 PM:

Another participant who contacted me about being banned is Kath Howard. Kath was very active for many years in the GoLive Forums. She has helped countless users find answers to their questions. Kath cannot get answers to her questions as to why she was banned, for how long, or if she will ever be re-instated.

Why was discussed. I would guess the best way to figure out the how long

question is for her to email Adobe. But I would not be surprised that

unless said email contains some serious assurances as to a change in

behavior the answer is "permanently".

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ʇɐb ɹəuəllıʍ wrote on 12/8/2009 10:15 AM:

jochemd wrote :

>> ...But if people react by throwing oil on the flames instead of simply clicking the report abuse link they might end up in the abuse

>> queue too.

I have never seen member Q Photo behaving like that. He (she?) always posted in the most respectful manner.

First, I have no idea who Q Photo even is. I was trying to illustrate

something else. Or actually two things.

I wrote that I watch the abuse queue closely and that anybody who is

reported on a continual basis is watched very closely. But that depends

on people reporting abuse when they see it. If people don't, those who

"stir up trouble on a continual basis" get a free pass to continue. I

will even go as far a saying that if there is any current user who stirs

up trouble on a continual basis and it appears nothing is done about it,

that is because we don't know about it.

The other part of it is how sometimes abuse reports are one sided and

don't give a good perspective of what is happening. Last weekend there

was some flame war where somebody reported several messages from one

side of the argument as abuse. So I clean up the queue, then clean up

the thread. The end result is that from both sides 6 messages were

rejected. If people had just reported abuse instead of responding to

some (perceived) provocation it would have been cleaned up much sooner.

While that was pretty harmless, a good example of people actually

throwing oil on the flames is what happened in this thread

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2304410#2304410 (Read down from the

linked message until the last one.) That is also a good example of a

situation where we are taking a much more proactive approach and both

baiter and baitee are likely to end up being nominated.

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Dec 08, 2009 0
New Here ,
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First, I have no idea who Q Photo even is.

In my opinion (and you (or someone else) may ban me for having this opinion and expressing it if you wish), that is a lie. I saw the post which got him banned - and I saw that it was deleted by someone about five minutes later. You were participating in that thread that day; if, somehow, you managed to not see Q Photo, that would be rather astonishing. As well, Q-Photo has been around these fora for at least a year or two, and has participated (before being banned of course) in the discussions in this forum.

I think it would be a lovely thing, indeed, if you could see yourself as you are seen by others.

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Explorer ,
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I think it would be a lovely thing, indeed, if you could see yourself as you are seen by others.

Kami, you are a breath of fresh air. Perhaps one day he can be rid of us all!!

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Dec 08, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Dec 08, 2009

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Kami Bambiraptor wrote on 12/8/2009 10:55 PM:

>> First, I have no idea who Q Photo even is.

In my opinion (and you (or someone else) may ban me for saying so if you wish), that is a lie. I saw the post which got him banned - and I saw that it was deleted by someone about five minutes later.

Anybody who has subscribed to the email notifications can confirm that

the only post Q Photo made in the Forum Comments forum since the end of

September is still there: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2363547#2363547

No need to apologize, I have grown immune to people claiming I deleted

something whenever they can't find it

You were participating in that thread that day; if, somehow, you managed to not see Q Photo, that would be rather astonishing.

So seeing some message equals knowing? So you would also claim you know

me? And I know you? Wow.

I think it would be a lovely thing, indeed, if you could see yourself as you are seen by others.

I think it is quite funny how I am supposedly some super moderator who

never sleeps but patrols these forums 24/7 deleting everything he

doesn't like and banning users left an right. Especially considering

what really goes on.

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Guru ,
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Being banned for life for being outspoken and passonate about their beliefs on a topic is ridiculous. Strike that: make that ludacris. The so called crime (what crime?) does not deserve the unjust ban for life punishment forced upon them in a cold harsh way.

Maybe a few days suspension is ok to cool off for a first offense. But to ban someone for life for the first offense is insane and cold blooded. There banned people that hold in their minds intellectual knowledge far superior and advanced then any customer support service can ever have or even wish for. If Adobe can afford to lose this intellectual knowledge base, for some minor first time infraction, then so be it. These people, for years and free of charge, helped hundereds of people and that is the thanks they get: Banded for life. Nothing like Adobe shooting themselves in the foot to make a point.

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The whole thing is ludacris. Who ever is behind all the recent decisions should have their head examined. Adobe being an inviting place to be is something that has lost its importance. Kinda like that other company that InDesign finally dominated. Same thing different time.

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I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I think Captiv8r's analysis in his first post above is accurate, BUT I disagree with the harshness and finality of the response to the TOS violations.  If Adobe wasn't enforcing the rules and allowed things to get out of hand then part of the blame is with the administrative policy; it's unfair to suddenly start enforcing the rules more strictly without a warning, pulling the rug out from underneath everyone who may not have realized they were crossing the line Adobe has drawn for user behavior.

IMO all recently implemented bans should be lifted on a probationary status perhaps, and if after this very clear warning, TOS violations still continue, go ahead and re-ban.

Permanently banning someone from user support for software they have purchased and support other users with isn't very wise or fair.

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Ansury wrote on 12/8/2009 11:26 PM:

If Adobe wasn't enforcing the rules and allowed things to get out of hand, it's unfair to suddenly start enforcing them without a warning, pulling the rug out from underneath everyone who may not have realized they were crossing the line Adobe has drawn for user behavior.

Only the 5 people who were banned on November 3th and are still banned

might be able to claim they didn't know the rules would be enforced. If

we remove from that list the people who got real warnings (at least the

ones I know about, there might be more, I am not aware of all the

private communications from Adobe), we are left with three people.

IMO all recently implemented bans should be lifted on a probationary status perhaps

I think the first step should be that those three people send Adobe some

clear "message understood" email. No point in lifting a ban when the

message has not landed.

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Dec 08, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Dec 10, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

I think the first step should be that those three people send Adobe some

clear "message understood" email. No point in lifting a ban when the

message has not landed.

My point is, if a ban doesn't send a message by now, nothing does.  I'm not sure that expecting Adobe customers who were banned to come back with a groveling email response is entirely necessary (or fair, since some may have been a little blindsided at the sudden enforcement), that's all.

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Advocate ,
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Ansury wrote on 12/10/2009 7:50 PM:

I'm not sure that expecting Adobe customers who were banned to come back with a groveling email response is entirely necessary

It isn't about groveling or even apologizing for past behavior. It is

about establishing expectations for future behavior.

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None of the powers that be at Adobe seem interested in making a full time commitment of moderating the forums and dealing with behaviour problems.Their forums, their call. The fact is, Adobe devotes little in the way of employee resources to the forums, so it's up to the hosts, and to an extent, John, in managing them.

The fact is that a few people have big problems with the forums and they choose to express them as loudly and as often as they can manage, and enlist others in their efforts... and don't bother to retain a realistic perspective. Since some of those people have decided to make me and others enemies, I no longer attempt to invest my volunteer efforts out here.

For the record, tho, this is one request I made fairly early on, and have restated at least a couple times in backroom topics:

Nov 2, 2009 6:42 PM

in response to: JimAtAdobeLR

Jim... can you please encourage everyone in getting away from the mindset of banning/punishing and, instead, work with the (problem?) people behind the scenes to learn their perspective.. what they think the problems are and what they think would help to make it better. There is a strong community that does care a lot about the forums there. It's going to become a case of the harder we push, the harder they will push back. We need to work on getting everyone to pull together, else it's going to end in total frustration for everyone.

Ansury wrote:

I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I think Captiv8r's analysis in his first post above is accurate, BUT I disagree with the harshness and finality of the response to the TOS violations.  If Adobe wasn't enforcing the rules and allowed things to get out of hand then part of the blame is with the administrative policy; it's unfair to suddenly start enforcing the rules more strictly without a warning, pulling the rug out from underneath everyone who may not have realized they were crossing the line Adobe has drawn for user behavior.

IMO all recently implemented bans should be lifted on a probationary status perhaps, and if after this very clear warning, TOS violations still continue, go ahead and re-ban.

Permanently banning someone from user support for software they have purchased and support other users with isn't very wise or fair.

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LEGEND ,
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Hi Dorothy

Very well said and I like your perspective!

Cheers... Rick

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Captiv8r wrote:

Hi Dorothy

Very well said and I like your perspective!

Cheers... Rick

Ya, but you're one of 'those' evil ones too... so your thoughts don't count either.

Anyway, one other I thought I'd drag out so people know how much I badmouth everyone...

Nov 3, 2009 1:36 PM

in response to:JimAtAdobeLR

Jim, I think that even most of those can be given another chance, but they have to be worked with privately to see how their chicken little behaviour impacts people's perception of the forums. They can turn it off, but you're right... it's so long standing that they may well need a 12 step program to do it. We (I'm including John, and the hosts, along with the peer user group out there) allowed them to grow their attitudes, believing that others would see through the nonsense at some point and call them on it... and some have... but their voices and their beliefs have been loud enough for long enough to override that. They need to understand that they are an extreme negative influence and promise to turn that attitude around, and maintain that promise, if they want to be allowed to remain. To have a go-to person behind the scenes will be a big factor in whether it will work or not. It will take time and energy, but could be well worth it.

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Dec 08, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Dec 08, 2009

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"Good Grief!" – Charlie Brown

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No kidding. The statement is a prime example of baiting. 

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a 12 step program?

How about one for the moderators who take such a hard stand, where a softer one would do the trick?  The heavy handed moderation is an abomination to the reputation of Adobe, IMHO.  Folks have been banned, without warning or explanation, even when asking for the explanation.  And now moderators want the <s>users</s> paying customers to humble themselves like little children and say "we got the message".

I know that tempers have flaired, words were said in anger etc, but that's life in general as well.  You have to learn to get past that sort of thing, cool it down and move on.  Instead, the mods ban, suspend etc and have the effect of inflamming the situation, instead of diffusing it.

It's a real shame to see what this forum has become.

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Guru ,
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But you forgot that we are just a bunch of "chicken littles" running around the confines of the forum walls yelling the sky is falling.  

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Oh.  I see.

Anyone who believes these forums could ever be good again...

Anyone who believes these forums used to be GREAT!

Had better take a 12 step course and <s>goose step</s>

turn their attitude around.

Thank you for that insight, Dorothy.

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LEGEND ,
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Hi Paz

I think the perception of the forums is likely divided. It seems to me that we fall into two groups.

Former "old school Adobe" forum users, who I will refer to as group one.

Former "Macromedia Inductees" forum users who I will refer to as group two.

Note that I mean no disrespect by saying "old school Adobe", I just couldn't think of a better way to express a representation of the users that have been with Adobe all along and were accustomed to the former incarnation of the forums.

I could be wrong here, but it seems to me that the largest and loudest outcry is emanating from the group one user base. The fora where I participate and help with moderation are primarily group two users. These users seem to have the attitude of meh, things changed. Let's move on.

From what I'm seeing, the group one users believed the former forum software to offer the best possible environment to work with. And because it has changed, some of them seem inconsolable. These users seem to feel that the new Jive software is an abomination. Some of them seem to hold the belief that if they stomp, scream, rant and rave loudly and longly enough that Adobe will hear their cries and revert the software back to what it was. But I have serious doubts that will happen.

Adobe made a decision to change the software. It was surely a huge investment on many fronts. (Software, Time, Personnel) Now we have our standard choices. We may provide constructive feedback about what works and what doesn't. Basically accepting that is what we have and learning how best to deal with it. Or we can "vote with our feet" and move on to something that appears to be a better fit. It's really a shame that experienced and helpful folks have left. But that was their choice to do so and any of us may stop participating for any reason whatsoever.

As I see it what really needs to happen is that we need to come to terms with the fact that regardless of how much we scream and shout, Adobe is not going to revert back to the former software. Obviously they felt a change was needed and they made that change. We just need to face it and accept that little fact. If we can at least accept that all we can really change here is how we deal with what has been presented to us, I think that will be a major step forward. And once we can reach that point, perhaps we can then begin to see ways that we can make the Jive (or whatever software is in place) work better for all of us.

As for moderation, no banning has occurred in the fora where I participate. There has never been a need. If someone becomes abusive, sheer peer pressure alone usually quells that and no moderation is really needed. Primarily, as a co-moderator in these fora, we brainstorm to think of ways to make the forum experience better for all. Sticky areas and lists of Frequently Encountered Issues. Helpful links to other resources. Things such as that.

Cheers... Rick

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I think the perception of the forums is likely divided. It seems to me that we fall into two groups.

Former "old school Adobe" forum users, who I will refer to as group one.

Former "Macromedia Inductees" forum users who I will refer to as group two

Finally!! This sums it up for me. It is obvious who has been running these forums.

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LEGEND ,
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Hi Cindy

Not sure I follow. Adobe runs the forums.

Your comment seems to infer the current state of the forums is a direct result of those that were formerly on the Macromedia side.

Certainly the influx of additional users likely precipitated the forums change, as Adobe had to search for software that would allow scaling to what they needed. If what they were using before would have accommodated that, it would seem bad from a business perspective to abandon that in favor of something new. So I'm sure they made the best compromise they could.

After all, each of us (Adobe included) make the best decisions we can given the current wisdom we have at the time. No? At least I'd like to beleive that's the case. I do suppose some make bad decisions knowing the decision is a bad one. But I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Cheers... Rick

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From what I'm seeing, the group one users believed the former forum software to offer the best possible environment to work with. And because it has changed, some of them seem inconsolable. These users seem to feel that the new Jive software is an abomination.

JIVE doesn't even support simple operation like, Ctrl+Z (or) Ctrl+Y...  Isn't that frustrating for you?.

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Explorer ,
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I would like to know just how many "moderators" are from the Macromedia side and how many came from the "old school" Adobe users.

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