jochemd wrote:
Since despite the plethora of messages nobody is even attempting to provide any arguments or suggestions towards improving the FAQ, this thread is being locked. Since the only currently provided reason for changing the FAQ is rather pointless in light of the overal rules, I am not updating the FAQ.
The problem with this is that you're assuming that nobody new is going to come along with a question or addition that will put the thread back on topic--it happens all the time. So if someone comes along, sees the original post, and wants to comment--now they have to create a new thread like this. Why waste the time locking the thread?
Ramón G Castañeda wrote:
The page contains something I had not noticed before. It may have been added recently.
Don't:
- …
- …
- Personally attack people, their edits (including spelling or grammar)…
Actually I strongly agree with this rule (change?)*.
*(It was there last time I looked and it seems to me that it's a typical forum rule.)
I've been the witness and target of personal attacks here for awhile now, so yes it does need to stop, and moderators should be removing this type of offensive comment. But mods need to have the sense to detect good-natured joking around vs. an actual personal attack.
Really though, inappropriate behavior like this shouldn't be that difficult to most people with some common sense.
It's not that hard:
- Questioning someone's intelligence? Unacceptable
- Questioning someone's educational background? Unacceptable
- Correcting someone's spelling, politely without implying that they're an idiot (a personal attack)? OK
- Correcting someone's grammar, politely without implying that they're an idiot (a personal attack)? OK
- Correcting someone's spelling or grammar in a rude, inappropriate, or condescending manner? Unacceptable
- Criticizing person B for politely correcting (editing) person A's grammar or spelling? Unacceptable - according to the Adobe rule specified above
It doesn't say you can't correct someone's spelling or grammar, it seems to say not to attack people for (politely, obviously) correcting another's mistake. I think. 
It could use a little clarification, the "..." at the end hints that it's incomplete--but the rule itself is needed IMO.
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I can see what Ansury is getting at, but surely the need for going into such details makes the whole thing a farce. The FAQ would never be read – it's obvious nobody reads them anyway though, so it's all academic.
It would be great if there were just a big sign at the top saying "Be nice to each other!"
... and we were. 
Ansury wrote:
The problem with this is that you're assuming that nobody new is going to come along with a question or addition that will put the thread back on topic--it happens all the time. So if someone comes along, sees the original post, and wants to comment--now they have to create a new thread like this. Why waste the time locking the thread?
I have seen plenty of evidence that people are more then capable of creating threads With the diversity of people providing off topic input a lock was the best I could do. What I really wanted to do was put a chill-lock on the thread: a lock, some message and a counter counting down for 6 hours until the thread is re-opened. But this software isn't really abundant in moderation features.
I've been the witness and target of personal attacks here for awhile now, so yes it does need to stop, and moderators should be removing this type of offensive comment. But mods need to have the sense to detect good-natured joking around vs. an actual personal attack.
And there lies the problem. What to one may be a good-natured joke (because some spelling / grammar errors are funny), to somebody else is a personal attack (becuase they studied very hard and long to learn a foreign language). Add to that that moderators need to make a judgement call on whether the comment will escalate or not, and a moderator has a hard decision to make. It is why I typically refrain from spelling corrections completely, except where pertinent to the problem (for example somebody writing IF (...) THAN ... ELSE ... ENDIF; in FormCalc).
jochemd wrote:
I have seen plenty of evidence that people are more then capable of creating threads
And there lies the problem. What to one may be a good-natured joke (because some spelling / grammar errors are funny), to somebody else is a personal attack (becuase they studied very hard and long to learn a foreign language). Add to that that moderators need to make a judgement call on whether the comment will escalate or not, and a moderator has a hard decision to make. It is why I typically refrain from spelling corrections completely, except where pertinent to the problem (for example somebody writing IF (...) THAN ... ELSE ... ENDIF; in FormCalc).
To 1st paragraph (thanks Jive for making it sooo easy to break up quotes for a response):
It's not a temp lock, but there's another simple alternative that I've seen used many times in dozens of other web forums: post a warning that the thread may be locked if it continues to trail off into pointlessness.* If people really want the thread to stay open, they'll get back on topic.
*(To me this means posting random cat pictures, general goofing off, or other 'lounge' type activities. This doesn't include a topic change to an off topic but still productive conversation, as long as the thread creator is okay with it. IMO--leave it up to the original poster to self-police highjack conversations. The point of the forum is to be of service the user/customer, not to make sure they obey all the rules 100% of the time.)
To 2nd paragraph: I understand there's exceptions and that it's a subjective thing, but 99% of the time it's usually pretty obvious whether something is inappropriate. I guess to some degree you have to understand the mood and atmosphere of the forum's users, which can vary, but IMO as a rule it's best to default to the minimum possible moderation and censorship.
In this forum--there is goofing off. Too much at times. 
But it's going to happen, and after awhile it'll probably seem like too much work to be worth it. I can understand not having 5 threads on the first page dedicated to completely off topic sea kitten posts or "this place is jived up" complaints (assuming there isn't some specific problem being reported), but I hope this is not going to turn into a police state forum. Especially considering that honestly, there doesn't seem to be many new "forum comments" left to make, all there really remains is our frustration and a need to make sure Adobe doesn't start to think we've gotten used to this crap forum software.
I don't know for sure if you (jochem) agree with all this (been inactive the last few days or week) and I'm not targeting this at anyone so... I'm just sayin'.
Geez, too verbose. Basically-- a lazy (but not completely inactive) mod is best!
Of course the most-quoted part of the post had to be the sentence with the grammatical error in it...
(And for the record I would not have been offended had someone politely pointed it out for me..)
David_Powers wrote:
I'm sure Adobe knows there's a group of unhappy forum users.
But if this forum didn't exist, with all it's complaints and outrageous accusations, would they still know this... or would they have forgotten by now?
John Joslin wrote:
It's like turning a supertanker around.
More like watching it sink!
You know what though--yeah large companies are slower at getting stuff done, but they can't be that slow. It's not like Adobe is a government agency--now that's slow! Why should it take 1-2 years (as it seems will be the case) to get software like this fixed and/or replaced?
If management wants something to happen fast, it'll happen fast. They just don't care enough about their user community to make it a priority. (I guess I'm role playing Captain Obvious today.)
Hi all
In addition to what David offered, I'd even go so far as to speculate that to a large degree, Adobe's hands may simply be tied. Just as ours are with the products we deal with.
Think about it for a moment. If we discover a bug or a behavior change in Dreamweaver, Captivate, RoboHelp or (insert your favorite product here), we report it to Adobe for sure. But we also know that depending on the number of folks reporting, we aren't very likely to see any real changes come along until they issue either a service release or a new version of the software.
I'm saying that Adobe is likely in the same position with the forums software, since they are customers and not the software developers. So the frustration everyone expresses here is likely mirrored by Adobe. But screaming and gnashing teeth at Jive isn't likely to help the process along.
Cheers... Rick
I think we mostly realize that, but can't they at least... talk about future plans for a replacement down the road, even if it's a year or two from now? 
That might at least satisfy those of us who completely hate this rubbish, for a year or so..
An apology from Adobe management for their major error would be a nice gesture, too. heh
jochemd wrote:
I don't keep statistics on users, but the quantity of posts has increased since the migration to the new forum.
You don't wear a suit by any chance do you? 
Hey John
I know my view of the forums is miniscule when compared to the overall view. But I have to say that for the two I monitor, we didn't seem to lose any of the experienced folks. And they seem just as active as they always have.
Again, my view may be a bit distorted. 
Cheers... Rick
Captiv8r wrote:
I know my view of the forums is miniscule when compared to the overall view. But I have to say that for the two I monitor, we didn't seem to lose any of the experienced folks. And they seem just as active as they always have.
Again, my view may be a bit distorted.
The losses I am talking about are mainly from the Photoshop and Photography forums, where people have gone who didn't get their wisdom from reading a book or passing a test.
Like you I only frequent a relatively few forums. It used to be more but it's too damned slow getting around these days. And I am not talking about Sciatica!
Captiv8r wrote:
I know my view of the forums is miniscule when compared to the overall view. But I have to say that for the two I monitor, we didn't seem to lose any of the experienced folks. And they seem just as active as they always have.
Cheers... Rick
The Flex forum I monitor (or used to, now it's just a rare visit) definitely lost many extremely active and experienced contributors. And unlike many, they didn't seem to complain at all--they just flat out vanished and probably moved somewhere else. In this case they're lucky because it's a hot enough product that new people are always coming along, so the activity is still there, but... it still sucks.
I also suspect that any 'increased activity' is partly a result of this new "ranking/scoring" jiveware mindset from crummy software that encourages mickey mouse users to stick around and post more often.
2 million messages
I bet 1.9 million were complaining about poor customer support!
Hi there
When you refer to ACE do you mean Adobe Certified Expert or Adobe Community Expert?
I would think that if I were Adobe and anyone with Adobe Community Expert designation decided to depart, I would be scrutinizing whether that status should be revoked or not.
After all, a community expert should be working to foster community as well as being an expert in their domain, no?
Cheers... Rick
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