Forum etiquette FAQ + Moderator Enforcement

[#1]

jochemd wrote:

Since despite the plethora of messages nobody is even attempting to provide any arguments or suggestions towards improving the FAQ, this thread is being locked. Since the only currently provided reason for changing the FAQ is rather pointless in light of the overal rules, I am not updating the FAQ.

The problem with this is that you're assuming that nobody new is going to come along with a question or addition that will put the thread back on topic--it happens all the time.  So if someone comes along, sees the original post, and wants to comment--now they have to create a new thread like this. Why waste the time locking the thread?

Ramón G Castañeda wrote:

The Forum etiquette and best practices page contains something I had not noticed before.  It may have been added recently.

Don't:

• …
• …
• Personally attack people, their edits (including spelling or grammar)…

Actually I strongly agree with this rule (change?)*.

*(It was there last time I looked and it seems to me that it's a typical forum rule.)

I've been the witness and target of personal attacks here for awhile now, so yes it does need to stop, and moderators should be removing this type of offensive comment.  But mods need to have the sense to detect good-natured joking around vs. an actual personal attack.

Really though, inappropriate behavior like this shouldn't be that difficult to most people with some common sense.

It's not that hard:

• Questioning someone's intelligence? Unacceptable
• Questioning someone's educational background? Unacceptable
• Correcting someone's spelling, politely without implying that they're an idiot (a personal attack)? OK
• Correcting someone's grammar, politely without implying that they're an idiot (a personal attack)? OK
• Correcting someone's spelling or grammar in a rude, inappropriate, or condescending manner? Unacceptable
• Criticizing person B for politely correcting (editing) person A's grammar or spelling? Unacceptable - according to the Adobe rule specified above

It doesn't say you can't correct someone's spelling or grammar, it seems to say not to attack people for (politely, obviously) correcting another's mistake.  I think.    It could use a little clarification, the "..." at the end hints that it's incomplete--but the rule itself is needed IMO.

[#2]

jochemd wrote:

Since despite the plethora of messages nobody is even attempting to provide any arguments or suggestions towards improving the FAQ, this thread is being locked. Since the only currently provided reason for changing the FAQ is rather pointless in light of the overal rules, I am not updating the FAQ.

The problem with this is that you're assuming that nobody new is going to come along with a question or addition that will put the thread back on topic--it happens all the time.  So if someone comes along, sees the original post, and wants to comment--now they have to create a new thread like this. Why waste the time locking the thread?

Ramón G Castañeda wrote:

The Forum etiquette and best practices page contains something I had not noticed before.  It may have been added recently.

Don't:

• …
• …
• Personally attack people, their edits (including spelling or grammar)…

Actually I strongly agree with this rule (change?)*.

*(It was there last time I looked and it seems to me that it's a typical forum rule.)

I've been the witness and target of personal attacks here for awhile now, so yes it does need to stop, and moderators should be removing this type of offensive comment.  But mods need to have the sense to detect good-natured joking around vs. an actual personal attack.

Really though, inappropriate behavior like this shouldn't be that difficult to most people with some common sense.

It's not that hard:

• Questioning someone's intelligence? Unacceptable
• Questioning someone's educational background? Unacceptable
• Correcting someone's spelling, politely without implying that they're an idiot (a personal attack)? OK
• Correcting someone's grammar, politely without implying that they're an idiot (a personal attack)? OK
• Correcting someone's spelling or grammar in a rude, inappropriate, or condescending manner? Unacceptable
• Criticizing person B for politely correcting (editing) person A's grammar or spelling? Unacceptable - according to the Adobe rule specified above

It doesn't say you can't correct someone's spelling or grammar, it seems to say not to attack people for (politely, obviously) correcting another's mistake.  I think.    It could use a little clarification, the "..." at the end hints that it's incomplete--but the rule itself is needed IMO.

[#3]

I can see what Ansury is getting at, but surely the need for going into such details makes the whole thing a farce. The FAQ would never be read – it's obvious nobody reads them anyway though, so it's all academic.

It would be great if there were just a big sign at the top saying "Be nice to each other!"

... and we were. 

[#4]

Ansury wrote:

The problem with this is that you're assuming that nobody new is going to come along with a question or addition that will put the thread back on topic--it happens all the time.  So if someone comes along, sees the original post, and wants to comment--now they have to create a new thread like this. Why waste the time locking the thread?

I have seen plenty of evidence that people are more then capable of creating threads With the diversity of people providing off topic input a lock was the best I could do. What I really wanted to do was put a chill-lock on the thread: a lock, some message and a counter counting down for 6 hours until the thread is re-opened. But this software isn't really abundant in moderation features.

I've been the witness and target of personal attacks here for awhile now, so yes it does need to stop, and moderators should be removing this type of offensive comment.  But mods need to have the sense to detect good-natured joking around vs. an actual personal attack.

And there lies the problem. What to one may be a good-natured joke (because some spelling / grammar errors are funny), to somebody else is a personal attack (becuase they studied very hard and long to learn a foreign language). Add to that that moderators need to make a judgement call on whether the comment will escalate or not, and a moderator has a hard decision to make. It is why I typically refrain from spelling corrections completely, except where pertinent to the problem (for example somebody writing IF (...) THAN ... ELSE ... ENDIF; in FormCalc).

[#5]

jochemd wrote:

I have seen plenty of evidence that people are more then capable of creating threads With the diversity of people providing off topic input a lock was the best I could do. What I really wanted to do was put a chill-lock on the thread: a lock, some message and a counter counting down for 6 hours until the thread is re-opened. But this software isn't really abundant in moderation features.

And there lies the problem. What to one may be a good-natured joke (because some spelling / grammar errors are funny), to somebody else is a personal attack (becuase they studied very hard and long to learn a foreign language). Add to that that moderators need to make a judgement call on whether the comment will escalate or not, and a moderator has a hard decision to make. It is why I typically refrain from spelling corrections completely, except where pertinent to the problem (for example somebody writing IF (...) THAN ... ELSE ... ENDIF; in FormCalc).

To 1st paragraph (thanks Jive for making it sooo easy to break up quotes for a response):

It's not a temp lock, but there's another simple alternative that I've seen used many times in dozens of other web forums: post a warning that the thread may be locked if it continues to trail off into pointlessness.*  If people really want the thread to stay open, they'll get back on topic.

*(To me this means posting random cat pictures, general goofing off, or other 'lounge' type activities. This doesn't include a topic change to an off topic but still productive conversation, as long as the thread creator is okay with it. IMO--leave it up to the original poster to self-police highjack conversations. The point of the forum is to be of service the user/customer, not to make sure they obey all the rules 100% of the time.)

To 2nd paragraph: I understand there's exceptions and that it's a subjective thing, but 99% of the time it's usually pretty obvious whether something is inappropriate.  I guess to some degree you have to understand the mood and atmosphere of the forum's users, which can vary, but IMO as a rule it's best to default to the minimum possible moderation and censorship.

In this forum--there is goofing off.  Too much at times.   But it's going to happen, and after awhile it'll probably seem like too much work to be worth it.  I can understand not having 5 threads on the first page dedicated to completely off topic sea kitten posts or "this place is jived up" complaints (assuming there isn't some specific problem being reported), but I hope this is not going to turn into a police state forum.  Especially considering that honestly, there doesn't seem to be many new "forum comments" left to make, all there really remains is our frustration and a need to make sure Adobe doesn't start to think we've gotten used to this crap forum software.

I don't know for sure if you (jochem) agree with all this (been inactive the last few days or week) and I'm not targeting this at anyone so... I'm just sayin'.

Geez, too verbose. Basically-- a lazy (but not completely inactive) mod is best!

[#6]

Ansury wrote:

considering that honestly, there doesn't seem to be many new "forum comments" left to make,

Perhaps there's the answer to the complaint that there hasn't been any feedback from Adobe since May. Nothing new is being said.

all there really remains is our frustration and a need to make sure Adobe doesn't start to think we've gotten used to this crap forum software.

I'm sure Adobe knows there's a group of unhappy forum users. It also sees a great deal of activity the product forums every day. If complaints were coming from new users, it might take more notice. But I've seen no evidence from newcomers that they're unhappy with the system.

[#7]

all that really remains is our frustration and a need to make sure Adobe doesn't start to think we've gotten used to this crap forum software.

Of course the most-quoted part of the post had to be the sentence with the grammatical error in it...

(And for the record I would not have been offended had someone politely pointed it out for me..)

David_Powers wrote:

I'm sure Adobe knows there's a group of unhappy forum users.

But if this forum didn't exist, with all it's complaints and outrageous accusations, would they still know this... or would they have forgotten by now?

[#8]

Hi all

In addition to what David offered, I'd even go so far as to speculate that to a large degree, Adobe's hands may simply be tied. Just as ours are with the products we deal with.

Think about it for a moment. If we discover a bug or a behavior change in Dreamweaver, Captivate, RoboHelp or (insert your favorite product here), we report it to Adobe for sure. But we also know that depending on the number of folks reporting, we aren't very likely to see any real changes come along until they issue either a service release or a new version of the software.

I'm saying that Adobe is likely in the same position with the forums software, since they are customers and not the software developers. So the frustration everyone expresses here is likely mirrored by Adobe. But screaming and gnashing teeth at Jive isn't likely to help the process along.

Cheers... Rick

[#9]

I think we mostly realize that, but can't they at least... talk about future plans for a replacement down the road, even if it's a year or two from now? That might at least satisfy those of us who completely hate this rubbish, for a year or so..

An apology from Adobe management for their major error would be a nice gesture, too. heh

[#10]

Ansury wrote:

But if this forum didn't exist, with all it's complaints and outrageous accusations, would they still know this... or would they have forgotten by now?

Yes, they would know. The same software is being used internally by some Adobe departments. They're fully aware of the problems. I think internal pressure is far more likely to bring change than constant griping by outsiders. But Adobe is a big organization. I doubt if change will happen quickly. It's like turning a supertanker around.

[#11]

It's like turning a supertanker around.

More like watching it sink!

[#12]

Ansury wrote:

I can understand not having 5 threads on the first page dedicated to completely off topic sea kitten posts or "this place is jived up" complaints (assuming there isn't some specific problem being reported), but I hope this is not going to turn into a police state forum. 

I want to make sure people feel welcome to ask questions about these forums and won't regret it when they do. I don't think it is necessary to turn this forum into a police state forum to do so. I am actually pretty happy with the way that is turning out so far. Just look at the last 5 threads started with a question about these forums and compare them with similar issues from 2 weeks ago.

[#13]

But we are still not getting any real answers about the forums just a bunch of police state mods trying to shut up a bunch of complaining customers. None of us is any wiser as to Adobe's plans on getting this pathetic excuse for a forum fixed or better yet replaced. neither you or any of the other experts or mods know what Adobe is planning and the longer this goes on the good people will be lost.

I'm coming in less and less I've been around since about 1999/2000 the last fiasco forum change lost over 30,000 of my posts and changed my starting date to 2006, so I do know what I'm talking about. Most of my posts were made in the product forums not the lounge. The fact that this forum has lost so many good people and will lose many more before its over is not good.

So until we hear from someone that is credible and we believe (JC), and that does not include the latest crop of mods, I don't think the regulars attitudes are going to change much. Like I said before we are doing this because we care, but this is getting so bad I'm caring less and less because I have the impression that Adobe does not care. I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

[#14]

Buko. wrote:

I have the impression that Adobe does not care.

I think they do care, but about statistics. If half a dozen valuable posters leave and 10 newbies sign, on that's a positive result to the suits.

[#15]

Buko. wrote:

neither you or any of the other experts or mods know what Adobe is planning

How could we when Adobe doesn't know?

You have forgotten the 0th rule of enterprise bureaucracy: doing nothing is the slution for everything.

[#16]

John Joslin wrote:

I think they do care, but about statistics. If half a dozen valuable posters leave and 10 newbies sign, on that's a positive result to the suits.

I don't keep statistics on users, but the quantity of posts has increased since the migration to the new forum.

[#17]

Hi there

John makes a valid point. And if Adobe sees valuable posters leave that also leave kicking and screaming with nothing but things like "your forums suck cheese" and ten new users arrive that say nothing and don't voice complaints, they are probably wondering how bad the forums can really be after all. They may figure if the forums were really that bad, they would be hearing complaints from all channels of the spectrum. Not just a specific area.

Just thinking out loud... Rick

[#18]

jochemd wrote:

I don't keep statistics on users, but the quantity of posts has increased since the migration to the new forum.

You don't wear a suit by any chance do you?   

[#19]

Hey John

I know my view of the forums is miniscule when compared to the overall view. But I have to say that for the two I monitor, we didn't seem to lose any of the experienced folks. And they seem just as active as they always have.

Again, my view may be a bit distorted.

Cheers... Rick

[#20]

I needed to test my AIR client for these forums and the simplest way to do so was  to download every single message available on these forums. So I now have a database with about 2 million messages. So don't get your hopes up on Adobe considering the move to these forums a failure.

[#21]

Captiv8r wrote:

I know my view of the forums is miniscule when compared to the overall view. But I have to say that for the two I monitor, we didn't seem to lose any of the experienced folks. And they seem just as active as they always have.

Again, my view may be a bit distorted.

The losses I am talking about are mainly from the Photoshop and Photography forums, where people have gone who didn't get their wisdom from reading a book or passing a test.

Like you I only frequent a relatively few forums. It used to be more but it's too damned slow getting around these days. And I am not talking about Sciatica!

[#22]

2 million messages

I bet 1.9 million were complaining about poor customer support!  

[#23]

jochemd wrote:

John Joslin wrote:

I think they do care, but about statistics. If half a dozen valuable posters leave and 10 newbies sign, on that's a positive result to the suits.

I don't keep statistics on users, but the quantity of posts has increased since the migration to the new forum.

So more people need help. All the nubies in the world signing up for the forum isn't going to solve the problems or answer the questions of all the other nubies. So you have a forum comprised of the blind leading the blind. That's helpful!

[#24]

Captiv8r wrote:

I know my view of the forums is miniscule when compared to the overall view. But I have to say that for the two I monitor, we didn't seem to lose any of the experienced folks. And they seem just as active as they always have.

Cheers... Rick

The Flex forum I monitor (or used to, now it's just a rare visit) definitely lost many extremely active and experienced contributors. And unlike many, they didn't seem to complain at all--they just flat out vanished and probably moved somewhere else. In this case they're lucky because it's a hot enough product that new people are always coming along, so the activity is still there, but... it still sucks.

I also suspect that any 'increased activity' is partly a result of this new "ranking/scoring" jiveware mindset from crummy software that encourages mickey mouse users to stick around and post more often.

[#25]

I now have a database with about 2 million messages.

A little diversion for you when you've nothing better to do. At http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/all.html is a list of all (most?) of the ACEs showing their area of expertise. Try comparing numbers of postings by these people in their specialist forums from 1 May to 31 July in 2008 and 2009. I know that that wouldn't be any more than an indication, but my own cursory investigation shows that, of the 18 Indesign experts, only three have been active (= more than a handful of posts) in the past three months. They do a splendid job, backed up by half-a-dozen others who richly deserve ACE status, but much of the expertise that was there last year is lost to users of these forums. I put it down to the loss of NNTP support.

Noel

[#26]

John Joslin wrote:

It's like turning a supertanker around.

More like watching it sink!

You know what though--yeah large companies are slower at getting stuff done, but they can't be that slow.  It's not like Adobe is a government agency--now that's slow!  Why should it take 1-2 years (as it seems will be the case) to get software like this fixed and/or replaced? 

If management wants something to happen fast, it'll happen fast.  They just don't care enough about their user community to make it a priority.  (I guess I'm role playing Captain Obvious today.)

[#27]

Hi there

When you refer to ACE do you mean Adobe Certified Expert or Adobe Community Expert?

I would think that if I were Adobe and anyone with Adobe Community Expert designation decided to depart, I would be scrutinizing whether that status should be revoked or not.

After all, a community expert should be working to foster community as well as being an expert in their domain, no?

Cheers... Rick

[#28]

Yes, that's an interesting idea.  It would be quite interesting because Adobe's website says:

All Adobe Community Experts are expected to exemplify the program fundamentals of product proficiency, enthusiasm, and professionalism towards Adobe and our customer base. In addition, Adobe Community Experts agree to be active contributors to the Adobe world-wide community by:

• Engaging in peer to peer support in the Adobe forums
• Posting information and technical support in their favorite online community
• Writing articles for professional publications
• Presenting Adobe product presentations at conferences and user groups

Note the bolded lines above.  I was actually browsing the list a day or two ago, and I recognized approximately 0 of the ACEs from my former-regular product forum...

[#29]

I would think that if I were Adobe and anyone with Adobe Community Expert designation decided to depart, I would be scrutinizing whether that status should be revoked or not.

ACEs (Community types, that is) get their wings in different ways; David Blatner, for example, certainly deserves the accolade for indesignsecrets.com, even though he rarely shows up in the forums. The ones I'm interested in are those who used to post but don't any longer. They've presumably moved on to fresh pastures to continue helping people - but it's still a loss to the Adobe forums. It would be so much better for everybody - Adobe included - if the expertise were concentrated.

Noel

[#30]

But according to Adobe's description, ACEs "agree to be active contributors" and to do the four things mentioned above.  Perhaps if Adobe enforced this agreement a little more, it might motivate a number of them to return/become active here.

Of course, they'd have to deal with Jiveware...

[#31]

all there really remains is our frustration and a need to make sure Adobe doesn't start to think we've gotten used to this crap forum software.

agreed.

[#32]

It's OK, it's working. People don't like a police state so they say, basically 'fine, sort it out for yourselves. Or not' - and shut up.

So obviously there are no complaints, so everyone is happy. Jochem is congratulated for sorting out the forum, smiles all round.

I love Big Brother ... I love Big Brother ...

[#33]

Kath-H wrote:

I love Big Brother ... I love Big Brother ...

Well I don't and will continue to voice my opinion against it.

What ever happened to common sense? Jochem claim to have been around since 2001 but acts like he joined yesterday.

[#34]

The new people may not complain because they see how the forum software works and thus call it normal. Once something is deemed normal over a period of time it turns into a standard. But the standard is not normal because the bar was lowered without the new people fully knowing what it was like in the past. The result of sloppy standards is pure slop. I know the issue is between Adobe and Jive. But if people know there are problems and no longer complain the powers to be will assume everything is perfect thus no need for change.

The lobbing of nukes between posters and Mods have pretty much abated. Seems more of a uneasy calm. Some problems have been solved and the air has been cleared of the fog of what is expected between groups. Communication is a good thing no matter how much it may hurt.

[#35]

dec9 wrote:

The new people may not complain because they see how the forum software works and thus call it normal. Once something is deemed normal over a period of time it turns into a standard. But the standard is not normal because the bar was lowered without the new people fully knowing what it was like in the past.

Funny how this brings to mind many parallels in the software development realm...

[#36]

dec9 wrote:

The lobbing of nukes between posters and Mods have pretty much abated. Seems more of a uneasy calm.

That does not mean they all have my respect yet.

[#37]

Hence uneasy calm.

Buko. wrote:

dec9 wrote:

The lobbing of nukes between posters and Mods have pretty much abated. Seems more of a uneasy calm.

That does not mean they all have my respect yet.

[#38]

That's boring... let's get some flame wars going!

Actually, I'm expecting a lock on this thread any time now (hopefully I'm wrong).  What harm it's causing to the forum's designated function, I have no idea, so I certainly wouldn't see the point of it..

You know, I think that's a good rule-of-thumb-- if off topic posts aren't disrupting the forum's function by sheer volume of lunacy (pushing relevant topics far down the page, and so on), what's the harm?  "Laissez-faire" style moderation is best.  IMO all we need mods for is to ensure relevant conversation can take place, and to prevent personal attacks or other incredibly stupid behavior.

[#39]

Ansury wrote:

if off topic posts aren't disrupting the forum's function by sheer volume of lunacy (pushing relevant topics far down the page, and so on), what's the harm?

In general terms, I would agree. However, there has been a lot of lunacy, and the good points that some people have made here have been drowned out. The harm is that you're in danger of being listened to no more.

IMO all we need mods for is to ensure relevant conversation can take place, and to prevent personal attacks or other incredibly stupid behavior.

The vast majority of abuse reports come from this forum and the lounges.

[#40]

Oh I don't disagree that there has been a lot of lunacy here at times, and if it'd genuinely drowning out relevant topics, as I'm sure it has at times-- start sending out warnings to cool it down and start locking posts (if really needed).

But at the moment (the last few weeks maybe even), this forum is slow enough that I just don't see a problem.

[#41]

Ansury wrote:

"Laissez-faire" style moderation is best.

Quite... Unfortunately, as in cases such as this, the exercise of authority is inversely proportionate to the self-confidence of the moderator.

[#42]

The majority of the rib poking in the forums is good natured. So we get off topic once in a while: As long as no sea kittens are injured ot killed what harm is there? lol

Lots of posters play with code and such and have their opinions on what should be or can be. Just sometimes the conversation gets out of wack and the slam starts to happen. Then a mod should step in and kindly remind people to keep on track.

This is mild in contrast to the forum feedback when people were asked how the new forums should look like and operate.  

[#43]

Ansury wrote:

But at the moment (the last few weeks maybe even), this forum is slow enough that I just don't see a problem.

I do. The OP of http://forums.adobe.com/thread/470150 should not have his thread degenerate into some discussion about the smell of cat food. Nor should http://forums.adobe.com/thread/475900 be used as a straw man for jabs at that we would all like to send to Jive or Adobe management, who don't read here anyway

[#44]

jochemd wrote:

I do. The OP of http://forums.adobe.com/thread/470150 should not have his thread degenerate into some discussion about the smell of cat food. Nor should http://forums.adobe.com/thread/475900 be used as a straw man for jabs at that we would all like to send to Jive or Adobe management, who don't read here anyway

Get off your high horse... the OPs question was answered / was pointed in the right direction. If some of the members of this forum get into a bit of light-hearted banter, what's the problem. Same applies to your second example.

For god's sake, this is not the soulless Third Reich! Nor the erstwhile Soviet Union!! Nor the People's Republic of China!!! Nor, most certainly, George Orwell's, "1984".

Give it a break... people come in, answer questions.. something leads to something... there's a bit of kidding around. Kill that, you kill the forums. Haven't you been able to read between the lines? And see the general complaint? These forums were a kind of home, a meeting place where folks interacted, laughed and joshed and in the process passed on / imparted invaluable information. Your attitude is killing that.

It's become:

Question

Answer

Shut UP

(In this regard, one eminent mod, locked a thread i initiated as answered. I protested. He, graciously enough reopened the thread. My real answers came in subsequently. My point is: How dare he arbitrarily lock the thread in the first place?)

Well, my friend you're effectively shutting off all interaction and ruining the atmosphere with your Hitlerian behaviour. Heil!!!

[#45]

you're effectively shutting off all interaction and ruining the atmosphere

Too late. Or maybe all the problems have solved themselves and everyone is now happy.

[#46]

Tonight, I think we should all load in the car and drive to he nearest pasture to do some ole fashion cow tipping to blow off some steam and perk things up a bit.

[#47]

there will always be some thread drift and if you close a thread for that well I seriously question the mods intelligence. The biggest killer of discussion and learning on this forum is the Jive software as you can't enter the discussion where you left off.

[#48]

dec9 wrote:

Tonight, I think we should all load in the car and drive to he nearest pasture to do some ole fashion cow tipping to blow off some steam and perk things up a bit.

or tossing around like Frisbies, some cow chips. But they have to completely dried out.

[#49]

Usually helps........

Was just testing the thread drift. It passed.

[#50]

Ya know this is what I don't understand about some of you regulars.

Who in the hell cares about the social/community aspect of these forums ?! Some people need a life !!

I sure as hell don't and I've been here probably longer than most of you (since '94 or '95 can't remember exactly). I just never did subscribe to the notion that these are a community platform, but simply for giving BASIC help and assistance to other users of Adobe products. Nothing less, nothing more.

For more detailed help, there are a plethora of free and commercial websites, so the "quality of answer" argument is moot, as these forums are really only for basic help|assistance.

I personally think that Adobe errered and should have never set up the Lounges. All one has to do is look at other companies of Adobe's size that have similar forums. There isn't any such social interaction going on and if people are volunteering to help out they do just that.

I agree with what Jochem is doing. These forums will function much more smoothly if all the noise is eliminated and the folks complaining would just do what the majority of others are doing, by making the best of a bad situation.

Post to help others in the product forums and leave the other social/community aspect for Facebook/Twitter or Friendfeed. This isn't the place anymore and probably never should have been in the first place.

The other is the sense of entitlement some of you seem to have, simply because you've been here for some time and the fact that you've bought some Adobe software. Bull Crap is all I have to say to you -- Grow up !

Why you ask ? Because social cliques have no part in this type of forum, and yes most of you are a clique.

One of the first times I posted here in a long time was this spring. Ramon tore into me because he didn't like my opinions; despite the fact that I never said one mean word to him in the beginning -- He started the entire thing. So yeah I have a gripe with him and everything he stands for in terms of these forums. So these cliques have to go and quite frankly none of you will be terribly missed by the people wanting or needing help. None of us are irreplaceable.

[Edited out personal attack]

[#51]

Check Apple's on forums

and Microsoft's NNTP forums

How about Mozilla's Forums especially the general Forum

Yes it true for Adobe forums are user to user, basic help. But this Forum particularly for is for complaints about the forum software.

Also, some of the subjects have degenerated to fussing, cussing and other unprofessional behavior. (This I might add you contributed some - and I am not without sin myself, though I have kept it to a minimum.)

While you may be only one, of the handful that would prefer to be a curmudgeonly; most people get more results, and retain more information, from a venue that has a human touch.

We are not robots. Your attitude fits perfectly with that Book/movie (1984?) by Orwell.

When you go to the Doctor, do you want one who greets you warmly ask what the matter and listens? Or do you prefer one that says, "what are you here for?" (acting as though he is getting indegestion just looking at you), check your pulse and BP; write a prescription and throws you out the door? I prefer the first. And if I got the second I would be looking for another ASAP

Thank you.

BTW: if that's the way you feel, why are you on this forum?

[#52]

S.D.A. wrote:

For more detailed help, there are a plethora of free and commercial websites, so the "quality of answer" argument is moot, as these forums are really only for basic help|assistance.

Wrong. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Not 100% true.

Try finding an active Flex community where you can ask actual questions (not basic, as that information is out there all over on blogs and such) that are advanced, unusual, or very specific--and get a response in a reasonable amount of time.  The only one out there other than Adobe's is the Yahoo group "Flexcoders", which is the only so-called web forum even more abominable than this Jive mess.

[#53]

jochemd wrote:

Ansury wrote:

But at the moment (the last few weeks maybe even), this forum is slow enough that I just don't see a problem.

I do. The OP of http://forums.adobe.com/thread/470150 should not have his thread degenerate into some discussion about the smell of cat food. Nor should http://forums.adobe.com/thread/475900 be used as a straw man for jabs at that we would all like to send to Jive or Adobe management, who don't read here anyway

Noooooooo.. I thought you understood, but clearly you don't.  Both threads "degenerated" after the questions had been answered, and in neither case did the OP protest or self-police their thread.  Clearly they don't care too much, and this is making an issue out of a non-issue.  Also, I would only see a forum-wide problem if there were perhaps 5 or 10 nonsense threads going on at once, pushing down relevant threads that have yet to be addressed.  This would definitely be a problem--but it's not currently the case.  What's the problem?  The problem is being invented.  How does two threads going off topic, whether it's a different topic or just goofing around, prevent the effective usage of this forum for it's designated purpose?

If someone creates a thread, they should control the thread's topic.  Consider it the same as their property, unless it crosses into the realm of something highly offensive like a personal attack (which is in the moderator domain of control).  If I create a thread, and the conversation evolves into something else--I would hope that thread doesn't get locked by mods simply because they decided that the topic has permanently or temporarily changed.  What does that even accomplish?  Besides just pissing everybody off?

[#54]

Personal attack.  Mods?

(I don't mean lock the thread, I mean delete the attack and replace with the usual [Personal attack removed, please read the forum rules] text.)

[#55]

Ansury wrote on 8/13/2009 4:26 AM:

Personal attack. Mods?

Try the report abuse button. That will allow one of the mods that is not

experiencing login issues to act. It is a good idea to use that anyway

as more people are looking at that allowing for a faster response and

mods can get a second opinion.

Jochem

--

Jochem van Dieten

http://jochem.vandieten.net/

[#56]

I think someone needs to understand what a personal attack is. Musing about something is hardly making it an "attack", but if you really must know -- I'm not the one whom started making things "personal". That was Ramon's doing entirely.

You know Ansury; you came into this Forum quite late and you don't even know half the background of why some people react why they do to Ramon. I was attempting to explain, especially to someone similiar to you (whom are quite relatively fresh to these new forums) that you don't know the entire history; Therefore you really should butt out when you don't know. There are always 2 sides.

That's all from me on the subject.

[#57]

BTW: if that's the way you feel, why are you on this forum?

Well Philip, definitely not for the social aspect that's for sure. I've been here helping out, time permitting for a long time.

Of course being self-employed means that I often burn the candle at both ends, and am guilty of posting answers at times, when I'm too tired and don't do the answers or the original posters justice. But hey I'm not perfect.

I'm here to offer help to people needing it on Adobe Products, assuming that I can help.

Often when doing so, I learn something from the likes of Zeno, Buko, John J. et al whom are masters at Photoshop. Same with some of the Premier/After Effects folks. Those are areas that I'm a beginner to low intermediate in, so  I'm always learning something.

What about you ?

[#58]

Ansury wrote:

Personal attack.  Mods?

(I don't mean lock the thread, I mean delete the attack and replace with the usual [Personal attack removed, please read the forum rules] text.)

I edited the post you refererence to remove the personal attack.

Folks; it doesnt matter "who started it", you only have control over one person; You.  Its possible to express differing opinions without attacking people.

[#59]

jochemd wrote:

Ansury wrote on 8/13/2009 4:26 AM:

Personal attack.  Mods? 

Try the report abuse button. That will allow one of the mods that is not

experiencing login issues to act. It is a good idea to use that anyway

as more people are looking at that allowing for a faster response and

mods can get a second opinion.

Jochem

--

Jochem van Dieten

http://jochem.vandieten.net/

Good point, hadn't realized that was actually in use because I remember someone saying it was ignored (too much volume to deal with).

[#60]

The abuse report system is in use.  All Hosts get notified of abuse reports so they can be handled as fast as possible.   But very few Hosts come to this forum anymore.  So in this case an abuse report will generally get faster attention.

However; I already addressed your request as posted earlier.

[#61]

S.D.A. wrote:

I think someone needs to understand what a personal attack is. Musing about something is hardly making it an "attack", but if you really must know -- I'm not the one whom started making things "personal". That was Ramon's doing entirely.

You know Ansury; you came into this Forum quite late and you don't even know half the background of why some people react why they do to Ramon. I was attempting to explain, especially to someone similiar to you (whom are quite relatively fresh to these new forums) that you don't know the entire history; Therefore you really should butt out when you don't know. There are always 2 sides.

That's all from me on the subject.

/sigh/

The implications of "musing" about things can also imply other things, especially when directed at the credibility or personality (whatever you called out) of a specific person. It was, at the minimum, borderline.  And it's not the first time coming from you, aggravating the situation.  I'll report it every time I see one from you from now on, because I'm tired of seeing it.

The only person that seems to have a problem with Ramon is you, maybe one other at most, as far as I've noticed.  I've no idea why you think I came here "late".  Late to post much here, maybe, but do you know how long I've been visiting?  If you mean the forums overall I've been around two years.  "Fresh" two year new guy huh?    Besides you don't need to be a forum vet to know an uncalled for personal attack when you see it.

Just stop with the nasty comments directed towards others, and maybe we'll get along?