Jochem van Dieten Must Be Relieve of His Moderator Status (Mark II)

Community Beginner ,
Sep 16, 2009

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The first thread on this matter seems to have been deleted, presumeably by Mr. van Dieten

It is my assertion that Jochem van Dieten has abused his moderator's priveledges by innappropriately deleting threads and posts with which he does not agree. He has been rude not only to some of the more 'curmudgeonly' forum members, but also to those whom are not troublesome (Claudio, 'GreenJumpyOne' are two that spring to mind). He has been arbitrary-seeming in many of his decisions as moderator; he has shown himself hostile, uncooperative and on occasion childish. He has not, seemingly, been held to account for his reprehensible, unprofessional conduct, and is (IMO) a disgrace to Adobe Corp. He has no 'people skills' and is thus an exceptionally bad choice for the position of moderator.

If you agree, please say so. If possible, give some examples of Mr. van Dieten's behaviour which illustrate my assertions above.

I am posting this partly to give people who wish to have a venue to complain about censorship (and other) issues may do so without taking up more space in another thread.

The fact you can even ask the question speaks for itself.

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Jochem van Dieten Must Be Relieve of His Moderator Status (Mark II)

Community Beginner ,
Sep 16, 2009

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The first thread on this matter seems to have been deleted, presumeably by Mr. van Dieten

It is my assertion that Jochem van Dieten has abused his moderator's priveledges by innappropriately deleting threads and posts with which he does not agree. He has been rude not only to some of the more 'curmudgeonly' forum members, but also to those whom are not troublesome (Claudio, 'GreenJumpyOne' are two that spring to mind). He has been arbitrary-seeming in many of his decisions as moderator; he has shown himself hostile, uncooperative and on occasion childish. He has not, seemingly, been held to account for his reprehensible, unprofessional conduct, and is (IMO) a disgrace to Adobe Corp. He has no 'people skills' and is thus an exceptionally bad choice for the position of moderator.

If you agree, please say so. If possible, give some examples of Mr. van Dieten's behaviour which illustrate my assertions above.

I am posting this partly to give people who wish to have a venue to complain about censorship (and other) issues may do so without taking up more space in another thread.

The fact you can even ask the question speaks for itself.

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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I agree!

And I have posted my examples recently, both here and in other places as well.

And for the record, yes this topic is about the forum operation (so it needs to stay)!

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Sep 16, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Send a private message to JC as well. Mr. Deleten can't delete that.

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Sep 16, 2009 1
Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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I have sent a PM to a different employee.

Anyway, that employee I contacted is looking into the process and said that he/she would get back to me.

In the mean time I'm sending JC one too. Maybe others should as well.

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Agree. Rude and obnoxious.

http://forums.adobe.com/people/John%20Cornicello

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Sep 16, 2009 1
Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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I see you found it

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Yes thank you... It took three searches, but I found it.

Message has already been sent.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 16, 2009

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I did assert that JVD was on occasion childish. Here is an illustration of both his childishness AND his rude behaviour:

JayJhabrix wrote:

In any event, you could well have remedied the situation by spelling out the name and asking me to kindly use the correct name in future.

I could have. I didn't. I will continue not to do so in the future. I am after all a poor, heavy handed host.

(The second quote is, of course, by JVD.)

Location in this thread:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2162566#2162566

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Here is my response from JC:

The Forum Hosts come from the Adobe Community Experts program.

I will talk to Jochem, but right now I don't think he is totally out of line.

John

I replied back asking him if he has seen the deleted posts and if he has read the comments other users are making about his moderating skills.

Perhaps, everyone needs to take a few minutes today to send JC a message.

Now, the question I want to know is, who is in charge of the Adobe Community Experts program? (who gives a moderator his/her moderating status)

This is all I can find, no names or anything:

What criteria does Adobe use to select experts?
Adobe selects those who best exemplify the program fundamentals of product proficiency, enthusiasm, and professionalism towards Adobe and the customer base.

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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That first thread you mention, would that be 

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2184990 ?

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Thanks for linking to that thread. The post I was looking for was linked in that thread.

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2242730#2242730

The Poster here was dissatisfied with your moderation and I posted in that topic that they should visit the thread that you just linked http://forums.adobe.com/message/2184990 (how ironic), and I let that person know that he/she was not alone in their dislike of your moderating skills.

So Jochem, you care to tell everyone here where my responding post to that person went? It was in the Feedback forum which is where you told me that the post I brought up yesterday should have been left.

We are all entitled to an opinion. Just because it isn't something you like or is against you doesn't mean you have to delete it.

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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That post went to /dev/null. And if you scroll up in that thread you will see there is a message there that actually says:

ANN: if you wish to discuss moderation, do so in a dedicated thread in the Forum comments forum, not in a thread about another subject

Did it really come as a surprise that that message was removed?

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Seeing as though the person had a direct issue with you, no. If that had been any other moderator the post would probably still be there.

Again, it just because someone has an issue with your moderating or disagrees with the way you do things does not mean that their post should be deleted.

Don't get me wrong here. I think you do have a lot of knowledge that can be very helpful. But since you have become a moderator it seems as though the power has gone to your head. You have had very few helpful posts in the last few months. Most of your posts coincide with the above issues and that is the reason that you are being singled out. I think you need to take a step back from the moderating side of things and try to be more helpful to those that are having genuine issues, instead of locking the threads and deleting posts just because you don't like what someone has to say.

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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I believe it's unreasonable to expect a moderator to not be human. Why should a moderator have to be subjected to constant ridicule, and not be allowed to make any mistakes of his own?

*Admitting* to some of those mistakes would give a much better impression of being human than we have seen so far. You seem to agree that mistakes have been made - I very much doubt that Jochem agrees with you. I have the impression of being moderated by a robot - albeit a 'humanly' touchy and sarcastic one.

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Ozzwoman9 wrote on 9/16/2009 9:22 PM:

Again, it just because someone has an issue with your moderating or disagrees with the way you do things does not mean that their post should be deleted.

I think this forum contains hundreds of examples that show I really

don't have a problem with people expressing their disagreement. The

imperative words being "this forum".

If you have an issue with navigation and 'content-free' pages on the

Adobe.com website, you post in the Adobe.com feedback forum. If you have

an issue with i18n settings not carrying across between the forum and

the site, it is about both and you get to pick where you want to post.

If you have an issue with moderation, you post in the Forum comments forum.

It really is that simple.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Yes, Kath.

I agree with you that admitting to mistakes once in a while would go a

very long way. I don't have the same image of Jochem that you do, but

I can understand why you feel the way you do. <sigh>

Harbs

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Kath-H wrote on 9/16/2009 9:31 PM:

Admitting to some of those mistakes would give a much better impression of being human than we have seen so far.

Why would it be important that somebody is human?

You seem to agree that mistakes have been made - I very much doubt that Jochem agrees with you.

Mistakes are being made all the time. I would guesstimate that about 20%

of the threads I lock to prevent escalation would not escalate by

itself. But which ones? Yesterday evening I should have immediately

locked the "Adobe website and forums navigation" thread. But how was I

supposed to know somebody would start posting the same message there

over and over and that I would have to clean up after locking it to make

the repetitions stop?

When I write code, there is an error about every 10 lines (and those are

just the ones found during testing). Why would moderation be different?

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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But how was I

supposed to know somebody would start posting the same message there

over and over and that I would have to clean up after locking it to make

the repetitions stop?

It would not have been posted over and over again, had you not been deleting the post as soon as I was posting it.

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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You posted at 20:53Z, 20:55Z and 20:56Z, I locked at 20:56Z and deleted the messages afterwards.

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Say what you want, but when I posted then refreshed the messages were gone.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Why would it be important that somebody is human?

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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And naturally when you can not find something, somebody has to be guilty. Just like the disappeared thread from the initial message of this thread.

If somebody at Adobe is willing to look at the log files the messageIDs are 2251068, 2251070 and 2251072.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 16, 2009

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You posted at 20:53Z, 20:55Z and 20:56Z, I locked at 20:56Z and deleted the messages afterwards.

...

Say what you want, but when I posted then refreshed the messages were gone.

I was right! It DOES smell like a Jive bug...

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Considering you had just posted before I made that "repeat" post...

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Why would it be important that somebody is human?

So you have no sense that you are dealing with people (who tend to be human) ????? It's all just dots on a screen?

Good Lord, DK might have been ineffectual, might have come by her Community Expert (in Creative Suite!) status who knows how - and bossy - but even she appeared to belong to the same species as the rest of us!

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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Kath-H wrote:

Why would it be important that somebody is human?

So you have no sense that you are dealing with people (who tend to be human) ?????

I am merely asking you why it would be important that somebody is human. I can think of many possible reasons for that, but instead of presuming a convenient one and attacking that one (a.k.a. a straw man attack) I am just asking you for yours.

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Advocate ,
Sep 16, 2009

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The fact you can even ask the question speaks for itself.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 16, 2009

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That first thread you mention, would that be 

Yes. I looked for it, but did not see it, for whatever reason; had I seen it I should certainly have bumped it rather than having created a new thread.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 16, 2009

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I disagree.

I do believe that Jochem has made a few mistakes in his moderation,

but only a few. If you refer back to the first posts on the subject,

as soon as there was moderation OF ANY KIND, everyone came down VERY

HARD, on anything Jochem did. The comments on this forum were getting

out of hand and moderation was needed without question. Jochem

responded at first to question why people came down so hard on his

moderation, and no-one gave him an intelligible answer.

In Jochem's position, I don't believe I would have done any better

than him -- probably much worse.

I have been subscribing to the Forum Comments since the forums

switched over, and have every post ever made here saved in email. The

only deletion I can think of which I don't agree with is the recent

issue with Ozzwoman. If anyone wants to question any deletions, I'll

be happy to refer back to the originals!

There's always going to be issues with clashing personalities, but I

believe it's unreasonable to expect a moderator to not be human. Why

should a moderator have to be subjected to constant ridicule, and not

be allowed to make any mistakes of his own? I think that all

considering, Jochem has exhibited tremendous self restraint in how he

responded to issues.

Harbs

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 16, 2009

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I think that all  considering, Jochem has exhibited tremendous self restraint in how he responded to issues.

I disagree.

If, by "self restraint", you mean that JVD has not launched any great verbal tirades, from what I have seen, I would agree. I do not consider this, however, as self restraint on JVD's part; he comes across to me as emotionally shallow, and, IMO, you have to have a certain amount of emotional 'oomph' in you to flame someone.

But that aside, it is, IMO, Mr. van Dieten's tremendous lack of self restraint in the application of his powers of moderator which has, IMO, contributed greatly to the acrimony and hostility which now exist in this forum. Locking threads, or deleting posts was, in times before, used by the moderators very rarely, and usually to stop a conflict which was occurring. Mr. van Dieten, on the other hand, locks threads (it seems) if he perceives that they are "off topic", as in this thread: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2244541#2244541

Discussing the acts (real or imaginary) of Congress to make laws that

violate the first amendment here is off topic so I am locking this thread.


I think that is a pretty trivial reason to lock a thread, don't you? Mr. van Dieten seems to have some strange feeling that the forum will collapse, or something, if a thread or post he deems "off-topic" exists!

Now, you would have Mr. van Dieten to be made out as a victim here, but I would like to remark on how he has responded, on occasion, by attempts of forum members to be positive and helpful.

JayJhabrix User 1,174 posts since
May 14, 2003
Currently Being Moderated

Aug 4, 2009 1:00 AM

The happy camper...

Who says Adobe customer support is all bad? Here's a happy camper:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2152196#2152196

Jochem van Dieten CommunityExpert 751 posts since
Apr 8, 2001
Currently Being Moderated
1. Aug 4, 2009 1:02 AM in response to: JayJhabrix
Re: The happy camper...

Discussions about customer support do not belong here.


And Mr. van Dieten locked the thread.

Is that not remarkable and wondrous? That someone should attempt to lighten the mood with a post about a happy customer. In response, the moderator curtly says such things do not belong & locks the thread. Does this strike you as helpful? I hope not. Does it strike you as likely to cause hurt feelings/resentment? I commented on this at the time. My post was deleted.

Again, using the moderator's powers for trivial reasons. People get resentful when people in positions of power or authority use those powers trivially.

Imagine for a moment I were a moderator. Suppose I said "The topic of this thread is "JVD must be relieved etc." Your post was off topic so I am removing it. Please start your own thread called "JVD is doing a great job etc". How would you feel, I wonder?

One last example....

I did already quote how Mr. van Dieten, in response to a constructive suggestion from a forum member, said instead he would not,  and would continue to not do so. In addition to being childish (one of the few human traits Mr. van Dieten exhibits), it also shows bad judgement, hostility, and it escalates conflict.

I have wasted enough time.

You think Mr. van Dieten has showed restraint? I disagree.

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