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Just in case...

Mentor ,
Oct 01, 2009

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Just in case anyone from Adobe thinks these forums are getting better, are more accepted now that all the knowledgeable regulars have been driven off and the community that existed has been destroyed. This Forum still su

cks, its slow ugly and a huge space waster. The dialog in the forums has turned into a bunch of lazy people who can't be bothered to read the manual. All discussion about anything technical or advanced just doesn't exist. thanks Adobe.

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Just in case...

Mentor ,
Oct 01, 2009

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Just in case anyone from Adobe thinks these forums are getting better, are more accepted now that all the knowledgeable regulars have been driven off and the community that existed has been destroyed. This Forum still su

cks, its slow ugly and a huge space waster. The dialog in the forums has turned into a bunch of lazy people who can't be bothered to read the manual. All discussion about anything technical or advanced just doesn't exist. thanks Adobe.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 01, 2009

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Coincidentally I was about to post a similar observation.


The Photoshop (Adobe's flagship product, remember) forums contain little other than installation and licensing questions and, as Buko says, questions like "where do I find the xxxx tool?"  or, "my colours are all funny what can I do?"


OR COMPLAINTS ABOUT ADOBE'S ATROCIOUS CUSTOMER SUPPORT.


Any valuable discussions or educational answers, such as there used to be on a regular basis are virtually non-existent.


But we do have a nice, self congratulatory community!

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Explorer ,
Oct 01, 2009

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I agree with every word of that!

The Forums now offer nothing of interest to anyone but the laziest of the most raw of Newbies.

There are no longer any discussions in these Forums about advanced techniques or industry developments to interest professionals or even serious amateurs.

And the wondeful former ADOBE Community has been totally destroyed by the adoption of the cheapest version of the appalling Jive software and the influx of useless, unnecessary and frequently trouble-making "Community Experts" from the Macromedia Forums who have succeeded in making visits to the the former ADOBE Forums as ghastly an experience as were vists to the old Macromedia Forums.

Brilliant work Adobe!

And now your software sales are dropping to such precipitous levels that you have to spam our mail boxes with items like this?

http://direct.adobe.com/v?xlvvccnEnHTvqvP

The  Forums are so dead and boring that they no longer produce any excitement nor desire to explore Adobe's products.

A new update to LightRoom was posted very recently and that news being discussed in the Adobe Forums would, in the past, have prompted many people to upgrade or buy LR.

Not these days. Most of us have stopped even looking at the new Forums any more and, if we do, it may be only about once a month.

And it is no good excusing this dismal performance on the economic downturn. Ancilliary graphic arts industries are selling their products — for example, there seems to be a buying frenzy for Nikon's high-end camera equipment with a shortage of stock at major dealers everywhere.

No, the current Corporate Management at Adobe has brought this situation on themselves — and most of the trouble seems to stem from their ill-advised acquisition of Macromedia and particularly the personnel that came with it.

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Oct 01, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Oct 01, 2009

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Ann Shelbourne wrote:

<snipped>

Brilliant work Adobe!

And now your software sales are dropping to such precipitous levels that you have to spam our mail boxes with items like this?

</snipped>


But their new logo... at least the one on the forums is so cool... it so very much emphasises the red...

Edited for spelling mistakes

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Oct 01, 2009 0
Guru ,
Oct 01, 2009

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I only have one friend.

Can I borrow a friend from someone so I can pimp them to get that $50.00 amazon card?

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Mentor ,
Oct 02, 2009

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Ann Shelbourne wrote:

Brilliant work Adobe!

The  Forums are so dead and boring that they no longer produce any excitement nor desire to explore Adobe's products...Not these days. Most of us have stopped even looking at the new Forums any more and, if we do, it may be only about once a month.

And it is no good excusing this dismal performance on the economic downturn. Ancilliary graphic arts industries are selling their products — for example, there seems to be a buying frenzy for Nikon's high-end camera equipment with a shortage of stock at major dealers everywhere.

No, the current Corporate Management at Adobe has brought this situation on themselves — and most of the trouble seems to stem from their ill-advised acquisition of Macromedia and particularly the personnel that came with it.

Ann I should have had you write my original post.

Just in case someone from corporate is reading this, we say these things because we saw Quark crash and burn because of the arrogance  of their leaders now it seems the same thing is happening with Adobe. Wake up and smell the coffee, Creatives don't need tin pot dictators to keep them in line. What we do need is a forum that encourages discussions beyond basic "I'm to lazy to look up where this is or how to do something simple".

We want Adobe to succeed but things don't look good from this prospective.

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Oct 02, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Oct 02, 2009

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I don't see this happening, at least not until the issues with customer service are straightened out first and we all know that could take a while.

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Oct 02, 2009 0
Advisor ,
Oct 02, 2009

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. Wake up and smell the coffee, Creatives don't need tin pot dictators to keep them in line. What we do need is a forum that encourages discussions beyond basic "I'm to lazy to look up where this is or how to do something simple".

So, it might be interesting for you to consider why this is your perspective on the PS forum; yet many (if not most) of the other product forums here are vibrant, full of professionals answering both simple and high level questions, friendly and helpful?  (Despite less than perfect forum sw)

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Oct 02, 2009 0
Explorer ,
Oct 02, 2009

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Your problem Curt is that you really do not begin to know the Photoshop application do you?
(I think that you have admitted as much in the past.)

Photoshop is a far more complex program than any of Adobe's others and has an impact on all aspects of the graphic arts industry.

I suggest that once you have taken the trouble to read, understand and learn ALL 590 pages of Bruce Fraser's "Real World Photoshop", you might begin to have some inkling of what the program encompasses!

New-comers desperately need the input from the Professional "Power Users" if they are to have any hope of mastering the complexities of Photoshop.

These are the people that YOU, and your cadre of so-called "Community Experts", have driven away.

The Photoshop Forums have always been entirely different from the other Forums because the program itself is very different from, and far more comprehensive and sophisticated than, any of the other Adobe/Macromedia applications.

Until April, we had a Forum Host (NOT a "Moderator"!) in Neil Keller who is a Printing Industry Professional with years of experience and is far more of an Expert in his field than you can ever hope to be.

As a result of the ill-considered change to Jive's atrocious software and the meddling in Forum affairs by you and the rest of the "Community Experts", we have lost Neil as well as countless others like him including Ramón Castañeda.
(That is his real name and you either do not have the courtesy, or perhaps the ability to use your keyboard to find the diacriticals, to spell his name correctly do you?!!)

The result is that discussions in the Photoshop Forum have now sunk to the imbecilic (but oh so cosy) level regularly seen in the Forums that you seem to prefer.

Formerly we witnessed virile no-punches-spared debates between a number of the graphic arts industry's Titans which provided high-level learning experiences for all who followed them.

Now all we have are boring repetitive questions (that are covered in the first pages of the Manual and have been already been answered a thousand times over in the Forums) and bland uninspiring replies so its no wonder that the real Experts — people who do know what they are talking about and also have real-world experience of Photography, Press and Web Production, computer operating systems and hardware and a wide range of ancillary machines and equipment — can no longer be bothered to waste their time in the Adobe Photoshop Forums.

Actually, it is NOT only the Photoshop Forums that are affected by the exodus — I have noticed that several published and highly esteemed authors and teachers of some other Adobe Applications are now posting in other Forums and Blogs on the Web but no longer contribute to the Adobe Forums.

And yes, I do blame the unwelcome input from Macromedia, and from you and your so-called "Expert" colleagues, for what has happened.

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Enthusiast ,
Oct 02, 2009

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Formerly we witnessed virile no-punches-spared debates between a number of the graphic arts industry's Titans which provided high-level learning experiences for all who followed them.

exactly.

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Advisor ,
Oct 02, 2009

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Interesting that you think Photoshop is the only complex program in Adobe's product lists.  That reveals a lot.   I know PS is complex; I use it pretty much daily.  I also know there are other adobe industry standard apps that are just as complex if not more complex.  Tell a motion graphics artist that After Effects is not complex.  Tell a corporate web architect that Cold Fusion is not complex.  Yet their forums are not the "community disaster" you paint. You appear to have a very narrow view and understanding of Adobe's product line and forums.

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Explorer ,
Oct 02, 2009

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You don't begin to "get it" Curt, do you?

The Photoshop Forums have always been very different from even the other formerly-Adobe Forums — let alone those perfectly horrible Macromedia ones.

The Photoshop Professional Users who formerly gave a lot of time to helping in the Photoshop Forums found them invigorating and interesting just the way that they were.

You, and your cohorts, thought you knew better.

You have forced your narrow-minded Micromediaized standards upon us with the result that many of us are totally disgusted by what you have done, now find the Forums to be pallid shadows of their former selves; and have dumped them as being a complete waste of our time.

If you want real world experts and professionals to help in the Adobe Forums, you simply will HAVE to learn to provide them with an environment in which they feel that they can function.

The present incarnation of the Adobe Photoshop Forums no longer hold any value and are simply not worth wasting time on.

You wanted to know why we thought that the professional Users had fled from your pathetic new Forums and I am telling you why — but you seem unable, or unwilling, to comprehend the message.

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Oct 02, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 02, 2009

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Hi there

I'm having a real disconnect with your logic on all this.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

You don't begin to "get it" Curt, do you?

The Photoshop Forums have always been very different from even the other formerly-Adobe Forums — let alone those perfectly horrible Macromedia ones.

The Photoshop Professional Users who formerly gave a lot of time to helping in the Photoshop Forums found them invigorating and interesting just the way that they were.

You, and your cohorts, thought you knew better.

You have forced your narrow-minded Micromediaized standards upon us with the result that many of us are totally disgusted by what you have done, now find the Forums to be pallid shadows of their former selves; and have dumped them as being a complete waste of our time.

I suppose I fall into the same category Curt does. I'm sure that Curt probably feels the same way I do. We were perfectly happy operating in our own forums as well. The Community Experts never asked for anything to be changed from the forum perspective.

Your comment seems to imply that the Community Experts recommended the forum change. Guess what? We didn't! We were simply advised of a new format being implemented. We had the same input as you did. This was a decision made by Adobe, not the Community Experts. I'm not sure why you feel we are to blame for that. Using your own logic on this, you share equally as much of the responsibility as we do for it!

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

If you want real world experts and professionals to help in the Adobe Forums, you simply will HAVE to learn to provide them with an environment in which they feel that they can function.

It's odd that "real world experts and professionals" seem to be incapable of navigating a new forum format. Yet newbees operate just fine? Besides, what do you expect Curt or any of the other Community Experts to do about it? The forums are owned by Adobe.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

The present incarnation of the Adobe Photoshop Forums no longer hold any value and are simply not worth wasting time on.

Then why are you wasting your time? Besides, your statement only applies to your own viewpoint. I'm sure there are lots of folks that probably find them to be a worthwhile resource.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

You wanted to know why we thought that the professional Users had fled from your pathetic new Forums and I am telling you why — but you seem unable, or unwilling, to comprehend the message.

And you seem oddly incapable or unwilling to differentiate between an unpaid volunteer user recognized by Adobe as being helpful and an actual Adobe employee.

Cheers... Rick

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Explorer ,
Oct 02, 2009

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It's odd that "real world experts and professionals" seem to be incapable of navigating a new forum format.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?


Who said anything about having navigational difficulties?

The unpalatable truth is that it is the whole culture of the Photoshop Forums that has changed.

It is not only the horrible, slow, ugly, inefficient format of the new Forums that has driven us away but the objectionable new style of "Moderating" that has wrecked the place by cramping expression and being overly restictive to Thread Drift so that no serious discussions can ever develop.


For THAT, you and your Volunteering "Community Experts" ARE entirely to blame.


Your presence here is not helpful and I for one do NOT appreciate the tone of your postings in response to any attempt that is being made to turn-around the disastrous landslide down which the Forums are descending.


But you, and your accomplices are totally self-satisfied with your performances, and seem unable to comprehend how much damaged you have caused.

The most helpful thing that you, and your Moderator friends, can do would be to skuttle back to your old haunts and leave the rest of us in peace.

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Oct 02, 2009 0
Advisor ,
Oct 02, 2009

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Ann Shelbourne wrote:

The most helpful thing that you, and your Moderator friends, can do would be to skuttle back to your old haunts and leave the rest of us in peace.

LOL.  This IS our old Haunt!

Again; In most of the forums here what you are saying is simply not true.   No matter how dramtically you say it, it wont make it true.  Many of the forums here have healthy community minded discussions and moderation is largely invisable / rarely needed.

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Explorer ,
Oct 02, 2009

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I never remember seeing you here at any time in the past ten years until you showed up last Spring with a smirking avatar and sporting your "Community Expert" badge!

By "your old haunts" I meant the video forums — or wherever it is that you find so preferable to being here and having to associate with the Adobe Photoshop people who you so obviously dislike!

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Explorer ,
Oct 02, 2009

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No matter how dramtically you say it, it wont make it true.  Many of the forums here have healthy community minded discussions and moderation is largely invisable / rarely needed.

That may be as YOU perceive it but I, amd obviously a lot of other former members of the Photoshop, ACR and Photography Forums, are seeing matters VERY differently and are voting with our feet.

What I find particularly galling, is your arrogance and complacency in refusing to consider that just for once in your life you may be utterly WRONG.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 02, 2009

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LOL, since I'm being accused of moderating and hanging out in the Photoshop forums perhaps I should! And of course I'm obtuse! Ahm wunna them thar silly ole Cummunnatee Exspurts. Shucks and goollee! After all, one tends to bring about what one expects, no?

You DO realize that this forum isn't the Photoshop forums, right? I've never visited the Photoshop forums. Perhaps Curt does, but I don't. I don't visit there, moderate there, drive users away from there, etc. And contrary to your Photoshop tunnel vision, Adobe now has over 80 different products. Some of them may even be more complex than Photoshop.

Like Curt, the forums where I hang out have seldom (if ever) required any moderation whatsoever. By and large everyone is professional and helpful. Really, the only moderation that has been necessary has been to occasionally move a thread to the correct venue. And in nearly every one of those cases the OP replied back with a "Thanks!" after the thread was moved.

I'm a peaceful person. Unfortunately it is you that seems to have the seething "all Community Experts are idiots and have no right to exist" attitude.

I hate to disappoint you, but anyone using the forums has a right to be here and discuss forum issues. I have no plans of skulking back anywhere. My opinions and observations are equally as valid as yours or anyone else's here.

Cheers... Rick

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Advisor ,
Oct 02, 2009

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I have no problems with you making constructive complaints about the forums you are involved in.  But it is not appropriate for you to broadcast that every other forum has the same problems, because they don't.   You are drawing conclusions in areas you have no or little information on.   If you cant have a constructive conversation without spouting insults, you'll have to find someone else to play with.   It is that very behavior that drives people away.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 02, 2009

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I find it a pain to have to read through your long and rambling homilies in this forum but feel compelled to because of all the inaccuracies and prejudices contained therein.


I can't be bothered to deal with the points individually but you should stop hypothesising about events in forums which, by your own admission, you have never visited.


I do visit the Photoshop forums and can tell you that there was never an attitude which frightened away "newbies". There are one or two knowledgeable members who do not suffer fools gladly but there were, and still are, many more who nursed beginners along patiently. The occasional advice to use google is inevitable where the responder would have to do the same himself. I normally refer people to adobe's own support documents where I can.


The standard of participation has indeed gone from useful and enlightening to basic beginner. It is really depressing and I only continue because I feel sorry for the people subject to the atrocious standard of customer support afforded by adobe itself.


You people may feel the need to defend adobe because of your fancy titles but you are not helping to put things right. There are some unobtrusive and helpful community experts out there but they get on with it and don't come in here shooting their mouths off.

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Explorer ,
Oct 02, 2009

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But it is not appropriate for you to broadcast that every other forum has the same problems, because they don't.

Try to read a little more carefully.

I have specifically mentioned the Forums that I feel have changed for the worse because of the changes that have been made not only in format and software but also in the way that they are being "Moderated".

The Forums that have lost their most valuable contributors include the Photoshop Forums, the ACR and Bridge Forums and the Photography Forum (which was extremely active up until April but has now virtually dried up).

The two well-known authors of books about other Adobe Applications (to which I referred previously) no longer post in the Adobe Forums relating to their expertise (not the same ones as the ones I listed above) but are active in other Forums elsewhere on the Web.

Perhaps the level of discontent with the new Adobe Forums is much greater, and more wide-spread, than you wish to admit?

Forum Comments has also changed for the worse and that I attribute entirely to the input from you and the other "Community Experts" who throw their weight around here but refuse to pay any heed to the string of complaints from other members concerning the manner in which it is being "Moderated".

I do not believe that I am alone in taking exception to the way in which you operate.

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Explorer ,
Oct 02, 2009

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quote:  Just in case anyone from Adobe thinks these forums are getting better

HA!

In her infamous "then vs than" speech, Dorothy promised us this JIVE bleep would be sooooo much better within 4 months or so that we would all forget how clean and easy to use the WebX version forums were.

I'm sure some of y'all remember... her  "These aren't the <s> droids you're looking for</s> forums you thought they were." speech

Funny thing.  My mind isn't so easily controlled.

Maybe I should try it on my own.

JIVE is JUST PEACHY

JIVE is JUST PEACHY

JIVE is JUST PEACHY

Jeeze.

Still not working.

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Advocate ,
Oct 03, 2009

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Curt Wrigley wrote:

So, it might be interesting for you to consider why this is your perspective on the PS forum; yet many (if not most) of the other product forums here are vibrant, full of professionals answering both simple and high level questions, friendly and helpful?  (Despite less than perfect forum sw)

I dunno about that, the Flex forums have without a doubt lost quite a few experienced people.  And a good number of the posts there now are basic level stuff that any simple Google search will give you an answer for.  When I see a question posted and I know I can instantly go to Google, type 3 words and find a blog with the exact answer to the person's question on the first page.... well, that's kinda sad.

And not to downplay the outrageous complexities of PS, but Flex/Air are unlike other Adobe products being that they're for software engineers, so the loss of expertise there definitely damages the quality of responses.  There were problems getting decent answers or discussions going for advanced topics even before the jiving of the forums, so this sucks.

It's not just PS.

(Edit: By the way, I just tried "updating" this post and IT DID NOTHING. This is the second time I am attempting to edit this post. Let's see if Jive CRAP WARE decides to work this time...)

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LEGEND ,
Oct 06, 2009

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Your problem Curt is that you really do not begin to know the Photoshop application do you? (I think that you have admitted as much in the past.)

Photoshop is a far more complex program than any of Adobe's others and has an impact on all aspects of the graphic arts industry.


Ann,

I do not know Curt's background with PS, but as I have used it almost everyday, since it was first released for the PC, I think that I can address some of your concerns. First, I'd also suggest that you look into Premiere Pro/Encore. Just the definitive book on DVD's is well over 1000 pages, and the knowledge contianed within is almost required reading, to begin to understand DVD/BD - the end result for a majority of Projects in those two bundled programs. PS is not unique (other than rightfully being the flagship program for Adobe), as there are some others complex programs in the stable too.

Now, I do agree that the subjects of posts has changed over the years. I began with the old PS "forum," which was a "news group" back when it was only available via NTTP - the Internet, as we know it, did not yet exist. Then, there were basic questions on where to find a Tool, how the settings applied, and as features, such as Layers were added, what they did and how best to use them. Back then, most of the questions were more about the creative aspects of the program's use. Most of these were quickly answered by power-users, many working in the industry. Some went on to work for Adobe, some went on to publish books on PS, some stuck around and then some just "went on."

I have seen the decline in the creative questions over the years. I see the same in the PrPro and in the Encore fora. Much of this is probably directly attributable to the myriad issues with installation and general usage in/of the respective programs. Far too many posts are really just rants, though I am not saying that rants might not be justified. It is just that they do not further the creative usage of the Adobe programs, represented in the respective fora.

I'd guess that the biggest reasons for the high level of such posts is based on at least two things: some poor coding and Bugs in both the installers and in the programs themselves, and the decline in useful TS/CS on Adobe's part. I do not think that the dearth of more "meaty" posts is because of the disappearance of the power-users. The posters, with the questions, have no idea as to who might be in the forum, or might have been there five years ago. They just have a question and are looking for answers.

This does not diminish those great contributors, who have moved on, for whatever their reasons might be. Their continued support in the fora, and their many contributions are missed. I miss them. Most, who knew of them, miss them. The new poster does not, but they do not know of those contributions.

Most of those contributors, who I have the pleasure to know outside of the fora, have left for many and often different reasons. One common reason is a change in career, often resulting in less time to contribute. Some have expressed displeasure with the new forum structure and have left, because they just could not work with it - too frustrating. Some have undertaken major Projects (mostly in the PrPro forum), and just cannot get away to do anything in the forum. A few have shown back up, when the Project was completed. Some just totally retired and did not find the time for the fora anymore. Some of these changed their life focus to say, birding, travel or something far removed from Adobe programs. I can certainly understand the latter, as I have been spending more time in the air, heading to some great dining spot, and less time even using my Adobe programs. None has indicated that they left because of any Community Expert, and none due to any Host/MOD. Now, this is from a tiny sampling, but covers several Adobe fora.

I do miss the creative questions, and jump into any that I come across, in hopes of paying back the graphics/photographic communities for the great life that they have afforded me. Also, and especially with some of the newer releases, I also hope to learn a new trick, or technique. I bemoan the lack of such questions too.

Just some observations,

Hunt

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Oct 06, 2009 0
Participant ,
Oct 08, 2009

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Curt Wrigley

The Name says it all...

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Advocate ,
Oct 02, 2009

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forums has turned into a bunch of lazy people

I'm not going to say that any post in this thread is right or wrong and I am NOT trying to offend anyone here (so don't turn this into any kind of argument or bashing against any of those in this topic).

But this is a good example of how the correspondence from each individual on here has went downhill (not in just this particular thread, but others):

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/500877?tstart=0

Now the response to try google was very plain and simple. But the OP did not have to go back saying that person was snobby, etc. for suggesting that.

It seems to me that we are getting more and more users on here with questions that are very simple and can indeed be answered with a google search and a few clicks of the mouse.

Perhaps it's the cartoony design that leads people to think that this forum is for totally new users who have no knowledge whatsoever on the computer art side of things. I can remember not so long ago when users would post questions asking simple questions (like how to open a photo in photoshop) and them being told to search google for tutorials and it was never ever blown out of proportion like it has been in many posts recently, it as usually responded to with a 'thank you'.

Perhaps newer forum members have been dealing with Customer Service and then sent here when they can't resolve their problem. And then that user (who is already ticked at Adobe) comes on here right off the bat with a bad attitude.

Again, no offense to anyone...this is just my general perception on what I have been noticing lately.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 02, 2009

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Hi Ozzwoman

On 10/1 a post appeared in the Forum Comments forum asking about an Order approval. Jochem replied to this by advising the user they were in the wrong forum and he even helpfully provided a link to the forum where he felt the question was a better fit. Ten minutes after Jochem replied, Ann chastises him and claims he was abrupt and unfriendly.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the link you pointed us to shows (what is to me anyway) a genuine unfriendly and abrupt response. What seems odd is that you apparently felt the OP shouldn't have come back and said the reply to simply "Google it" came off to them as being snobby. After looking at the thread I have to agree with the OP. It felt like a brush off. Like the respondent felt the OP was disrupting things and wasting everyone's time by asking a question. In my opinion, everyone should be entitled to ask a question and receive a helpful reply without fear of being pointed out or chastised.

In my own limited view of the forums I participate in, there have always been (and I suspect there will always be) the constant flow of seemingly inane and simple questions from new users. We all know the forums search is awful. Google is much better. It seems to me that too many of those here are losing sight of the fact that we were all new to the assorted products once. Some of us here talk of "elitism" and suddenly shift gears if a newbee asks what appears to the seasoned user to be a silly question.

I might suggest an alternate explanation for an uptick of "silly questions". In other threads a loss of "true experts" is being bemoaned. Maybe the uptick of "silly questions" is simply a result of an absence of elitist forum members that would otherwise intimidate new users. After all, if a new user is lurking and sees another  user ask what seems to some to be a silly question, then watch as they are publicly chastised, they aren't likely to ask whatever question they had, no?

Of course I can't speak for everyone, but as a seasoned forum user that has repeatedly and patiently answered the same "inane newbee questions" over and over and over, once in a while I make my own discoveries while providing answers to the same questions. So sure, the question may seem banal and not worthwhile, but if it actually helps a fellow human, have the forums been a success? To that person they have. Perhaps the answer to that silly question totally made their day. Their week or their month!

We all have to begin as a newbee. Who knows what experts and professionals will result (or not) totally based on something as simple as a courteous (or rude) reply in a silly forum. Like a rock tossed into still waters, you have no way of knowing where the ripples will travel and what may be affected as a result.

Food for thought... Rick

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Oct 02, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Oct 03, 2009

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So what should Adobe do? Apart from changing the forum software.

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Oct 03, 2009 0
New Here ,
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jochemd wrote:

So what should Adobe do? Apart from changing the forum software.

Get rid of moderators such as you?

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Advocate ,
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So who should moderate here? Can you give me some usernames?

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Advocate ,
Oct 03, 2009

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Ozpeter. May be too human for your taste.

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Enthusiast ,
Oct 03, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

So who should moderate here? Can you give me some usernames?

Well, i'm not khaziranga, but the first question is, now that you're headhunting... what's the fee?

Nevermind... why don't you start a thread and see who the users would like? There have been some names – of past moderators who commanded a great deal of respect – mentioned in some threads... At least they seem far more together and balanced than the present lot of moderators who, i doubt, even know what the name / title means or implies. Nice post here on that, kind of drifted away though:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2278672#2278672

Anyway, you'll do as you see fit... Whether it fits or not!

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Advocate ,
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Jochem's status should be increased to the point where he can achieve the fixes he is able to create and get listened to by Adobe/Jive. I've said before (oh, forgot, got logged out while posting and couldn't be bothered) - I value Jochem's knowledge and ability in the technical realm hugely but he is temperamentally unsuited to being in charge of people. Give him the tools and incentives to fix whatever he can, which is probably most of it, but let's have a host with proven people-skills. I'd also like to see more of John C, who is unfailingly polite and courteous as well as having a sense of humour, plus he has (or used to have) some useful 'powers' and influence.


Two birds, one stone. A much improved atmosphere in here - if Oz could do that in the Lounge he can do it anywhere - and nonsenses like the 404 error, logging out while posting, whatever is wrong with email headers (don't use it, don't know) and other sillinesses zapped.

No more unqualified 'experts' with no powers and not the faintest clue how things work, ferrying notes 'round back' and wagging fingers. Let's put the round pegs in the round holes for once.

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LEGEND ,
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Jochem, the way I interpreted the post from Khazi, the suggestion was to eliminate forums moderation completely.

I don't believe that's likely to happen or should really even be considered, but that's how I interpreted it.

Cheers... Rick

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LEGEND ,
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Captiv8r wrote:

Jochem, the way I interpreted the post from Khazi, the suggestion was to eliminate forums moderation completely.

From here it looks like he said, "Get rid of moderators such as you?"


Not what you twisted it to!

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LEGEND ,
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Hi John

Indeed he did say:

Get rid of moderators such as you.

That is a general statement and can mean a few different things.

  • It may mean that all moderators should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators with the name Jochem should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators that practice certain behaviors such as moderating should be discarded

I did preface what I said with  the way I interpreted the post. Only Khazi can say whether you were more correct or I was in our interpretations. Of course, as I bear a Community Expert badge near my name I might expect that the only interpretation by some here would be that I intentionally twisted the meaning. Geez

You know, the more I participate here the more I begin to wonder if I may have the whole reasoning behind forums and their usage wrong. I always felt they are intended to be a gathering place where different viewpoints could be discussed and shared. However, it seems that for some reason, in this particular forum, everything is interpreted as being combative and full of back handed insults. At least by some. I'm not sure why that is. It doesn't seem to be that way in any of the other forums.

I guess on some level it's quite simply because Adobe has a Community Expert badge near my name. LOL, perhaps that's why Dorothy has a target as her avatar! After all, it was my reply to Ann that you stated was a "long and rambling homily". Uh, excuse me, but it was a long post from her I was replying to. Yet you never mentioned her initial post as being a long and rambling homily. Then again, perhaps you didn't wish to have her sights aimed at you, and I fully understand that. She seems to be quite bitter and in all my encounters with her, she makes every effort to belittle and insult.

Guess I turned it into a homily, eh? Sorry 'bout that.

Rick

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Mentor ,
Oct 03, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

So who should moderate here? Can you give me some usernames?

Well, if we dump the crappy software and go back to what we had, I'm pretty sure all the good hosts will come back.

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New Here ,
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Captiv8r wrote:

Jochem, the way I interpreted the post from Khazi, the suggestion was to eliminate forums moderation completely.

He Dude....

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never suggested anything of the kind...

I don't believe that's likely to happen or should really even be considered, but that's how I interpreted it.

The problem is with your interpretation.... do you not understand simple English? Since when does, "Get rid of moderators such as you?", equate with "...eliminate forums moderation completely."?

So please stop twisting things and inferring statements to me that i did not make. As an Adobe Community Expert you should be ashamed of yourself.

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New Here ,
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John Joslin wrote:

Captiv8r wrote:

Jochem, the way I interpreted the post from Khazi, the suggestion was to eliminate forums moderation completely.

From here it looks like he said, "Get rid of moderators such as you?"


Not what you twisted it to!

Too right John! No wonder there are such hassles in this forum... When Community Experts start twisting things and implying statements that were never meant nor intended!

Sheesh!!

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LEGEND ,
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Captiv8r wrote:

You know, the more I participate here the more I begin to wonder if I may have the whole reasoning behind forums and their usage wrong. I always felt they are intended to be a gathering place where different viewpoints could be discussed and shared.

Most people only come in here to complain about the forums so naturally it is not all sweetness and light.


Like I said, you need to get into some of the forums I post in before you jump to conclusions.

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LEGEND ,
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Hi khaziranga

See, this is just one example. You wrote something and you never once stopped to consider that it may be interpreted differently by anyone else. That's common and all of us do it all the time. No issue there.

The issue is that you then become decidedly combative and suggest I'm to blame and at fault simply because I interpreted it differently than you intended. And again, simply because a Community Expert logo is near my forum name you make a generalization about all "Community Experts" and say I'm putting words in your mouth. No, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm only trying to convey the way *I* interpreted it.

There was no open discussion. No comeback to say okay, I see where what I said might be interpreted differently. Nope, it was quite simply case closed. You played all the roles of Judge, Jury and Executioner and state that Community Experts are the cause of all the woes in this forum.

Sheesh indeed!

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Explorer ,
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However, it seems that for some reason, in this particular forum, everything is interpreted as being combative and full of back handed insults. At least by some. I'm not sure why that is. It doesn't seem to be that way in any of the other forums.

There is something about the smug, sanctimonious, preachy style which you (and several other of your "Community Expert" pals) have adopted that is simply infuriating.

We never had to suffer from this nonsense in the former ADOBE Forums until you lot arrived and frankly, the input from the lot of you (combined with the ridiculously heavy-handed "Moderating" that has been going on here) is what triggers the response that you are getting to your posts.

And not only from me.

When highly esteemed , experienced and knowledgeable contributors (with a history of helping unstintingly in these Forums since their inception) is banned because he has the temerity to defend himself against the attacks by the spiteful and ignorant and you condone that sort of "Moderating" you have taken your new-found power too far.

None of you are any help here whatsoever and your badges should be redesigned to fit what you really are:

"Community Demolition Experts"

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New Here ,
Oct 03, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

Hi John

Indeed he did say:

Get rid of moderators such as you.

That is a general statement and can mean a few different things.

  • It may mean that all moderators should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators with the name Jochem should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators that practice certain behaviors such as moderating should be discarded

I did preface what I said with  the way I interpreted the post. Only Khazi can say whether you were more correct or I was in our interpretations. Of course, as I bear a Community Expert badge near my name I might expect that the only interpretation by some here would be that I intentionally twisted the meaning. Geez

You know, the more I participate here the more I begin to wonder if I may have the whole reasoning behind forums and their usage wrong. I always felt they are intended to be a gathering place where different viewpoints could be discussed and shared. However, it seems that for some reason, in this particular forum, everything is interpreted as being combative and full of back handed insults. At least by some. I'm not sure why that is. It doesn't seem to be that way in any of the other forums.

I guess on some level it's quite simply because Adobe has a Community Expert badge near my name. LOL, perhaps that's why Dorothy has a target as her avatar! After all, it was my reply to Ann that you stated was a "long and rambling homily". Uh, excuse me, but it was a long post from her I was replying to. Yet you never mentioned her initial post as being a long and rambling homily. Then again, perhaps you didn't wish to have her sights aimed at you, and I fully understand that. She seems to be quite bitter and in all my encounters with her, she makes every effort to belittle and insult.

Guess I turned it into a homily, eh? Sorry 'bout that.

Rick

You're a great one for twisting things... Interpreting, implying and inferring what was never said.

I did say, "Get rid of moderators such as you?" And that means exactly what it says. It does not mean:

  • It may mean that all moderators should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators with the name Jochem should be discarded
  • It may mean that only moderators that practice certain behaviors such as moderating should be discarded

So kindly stop twisting statements to your convenience by interpreting, implying and inferring statements and meanings that were never intended.

To quote you, "Geez".

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Mentor ,
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its interesting, in the old forum they were referred to as hosts.

now all of a sudden with the new software we have moderators.

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New Here ,
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My Dear Captiv8r,

There was a simple statement made by me. It said, in reply to a question, "Get rid of moderators such as you." There is no room for ambiguity in that statement. Unless the reader does not understand simple English.

All attempts to interpret it as something else are a twisting of facts and intent. And by extension an attempt to imply or infer something that i never said.

It's as simple as that. No combativeness. Just sheer outrage at how you've attempted to twist my words with your 'interpretation'. And please do not now try and hide behind the Community Expert tag and get everyone to feel sorry for you. With your 'interpretation', you did attempt to put words in my mouth and convey thoughts i never intended.

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Explorer ,
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Looks as if this bunch are now trying to ban me!

I tried to edit  my previous message and got a "Not Authorized to Post" message!

Wonderful — after I have been helping in these Forums since their inception and am a Photoshop and Bridge Beta Tester!

Adobe simply has to get rid of these "Moderators" before they destroy the Forums completely and, with no Customer Service anymore, purchasing totally unsupported software will become a doubtful proposition.

This is all so reminiscent of what happened at Quark XPress … they also tried to muzzle all criticism and dissent in their Forums and look where that got them?!!

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New Here ,
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John Joslin wrote:

Most people only come in here to complain about the forums so naturally it is not all sweetness and light.

And, i believe that when they say something positive, their threads get locked as being irrelevant? Or some such? Or am i wrong?

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LEGEND ,
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Thanks for amusing me!

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

There is something about the smug, sanctimonious, preachy style which you (and several other of your "Community Expert" pals) have adopted that is simply infuriating.

I suppose that by simply acknowedging what cannot be changed and having a positive outlook on things it could be considered smug. If life hands me lemons, I'm gonna say wow! Lemons! Cool! Where's the sugar? Let's make some lemonade! Now, who's bringing the vodka?

I think really that's perhaps the root of the issue here. See, one of the tenants of the Community Experts program is to be helpful and courteous to the forum participants. We tend to view that everyone who posts is genuine and in need of help. Then we try to provide it. Sure, some are angry and some complain about bugs in the software. That's fine but not where we prefer to focus. We provide workarounds. It's unfortunate that a positive attitude infuriates you. But I'm not planning on changing that anytime soon.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

We never had to suffer from this nonsense in the former ADOBE Forums until you lot arrived and frankly, the input from the lot of you (combined with the ridiculously heavy-handed "Moderating" that has been going on here) is what triggers the response that you are getting to your posts.

Only in this forum. Where we discuss forum issues. You have made it very clear that one of the "issues" with the new Adobe forums is that you have Community Experts participating. So here's an eye opener for you. Sit down and prepare yourself because it will likely be quite a shocker! There have likely been Community Experts among you all along. Likely in the former forums software there was no way to identify that and perhaps now it's in your face a bit because of the badging involved. I suppose you might call it your dirty little secret.

I know you feel the moderating in this, the forum comments forum has been heavy handed. Has it also been occurring in the forums where you hang out? I suspect it has or you wouldn't be complaining. So if that's the case and you feel it is too strict, why aren't you addressing it with the moderator there? Or is the moderator there also Jochem as well so you are dealing with him here?

See, you speak of things gallng you and of elitism. Then you turn around and speak in generalizations that ALL Community Experts are inept and destroying things. The "real experts" have all left the building. You act as if only the Photoshop forum (only one of Adobe's 80+ products) was ever worth visiting. And that, my friend, is what *I* consider being elitist.

Quite simply it galls ME that you appear to like to lump people into general categories that aren't worth your time. Everyone holds equal value. I've had an "inane" question from a newbee teach me things I'd never have learned about the Adobe software I use. Simply because of the way they asked the question that made me think in a new way about it. Things that an expert user would likely scoff at and claim was impossible because they never elected to think of it in that way. I've seen it happen myself.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

When highly esteemed , experienced and knowledgeable contributors (with a history of helping unstintingly in these Forums since their inception) is banned because he has the temerity to defend himself against the attacks by the spiteful and ignorant and you condone that sort of "Moderating" you have taken your new-found power too far.

Once again you speak in broad generalities. I personally have never banned anyone! Once again you seem incapable of differentiating between a volunteer recognized by Adobe and Adobe Employees themselves.

Sure, we may recommend to Adobe that they review someone we think worthy of banning. But the decision to ban ultiimately is made by Adobe themselves. Only after reviewing things. Based on what I've seen from Adobe, they don't take it lightly and there has to be some serious things done to warrant banning.

I'm guessing here that you are referring once again to Ramón? (do I get extra credit for finding the diacriticals?)

Cheers... Rick

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LEGEND ,
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Hi Buko

I realize I'm on dangerous ground today with offering how *I* might understand and perceive things, but here goes anyway.

If I see the word "Host", I'm likely to consider that the person being referred to is an actual Adobe employee. After all, you aren't likely to "Host" a party in a neighbor's home, no?

If I see the word "Moderator", it's more likely that I will interpret that as meaning the person being referred to may be an actual employee or a volunteer that has been appointed.

Okay, I have my quadruple layers of Nomex on today. Feel free to flame away!

Cheers... Rick

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Those with long experience of the WebX forums are used to the term 'host' as someone who may be an employee, but usually isn't. No-one had the title 'Moderator'. I understand that the MM forums had neither - they were obviously immaculately behaved Nevertheless I heard a lot of complaints about those forums, with very many people preferring to use a newsreader.


And 'hosts such as you' couldn't be clearer - it means hosts who either are you or resemble you.

On the other hand 'hosts, such as you' would mean all hosts, 'you' being an example.

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Explorer ,
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I really canot be bothered to answer your latest diatribe which, as always with everything that you write, is so sanctimonious and smug that it just makes me sick!

You are so incredibly self-satisfied that you seem unable to understand that it is possibly your attitude, your postings and indeed your very presence here that is engendering the fury which is being expressed.

We neither need, nor want, your input.

Yes, you have succeeded very well in DEMOLISHING the wonderful Community which existed in the former ADOBE Forums before your arrival on the scene.

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LEGEND ,
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LOL

tmp2.gif

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

We neither need, nor want, your input.

My input is only in the forum comments area. I've never posted in the forums you are claiming have been destroyed.

Looks like you weren't banned either. You just don't understand that once someone has replied to your post you can't edit it.

Have a happy day... Rick

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Explorer ,
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You just don't understand that once someone has replied to your post you can't edit it.

Oh yes, I understand that perfectly well but no new post had yet appeared while I was trying to edit.

Just that slow, incompetent Jive software I suppose.

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LEGEND ,
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Yeah, but with Computers, even though a reply might not be present at the moment you look, one may appear but a nanosecond later.

I hear they are quite speedy these days.

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Enthusiast ,
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he's saying "don't be a d*ck."

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