Locked

[locked] A Different Perspective On The Point System

Participant ,
Jun 03, 2009 Jun 03, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I was reading Joel on Software today and he was talking about "Stack Overflow" which is a very successful Q&A forum for programmers by programmers.  Joel makes the point that the Stack Overflow board (which is similar to these forums in that it's a technical support forum) uses a point system. Joel goes on to write;

"It’s not much of a secret, but Stack Overflow is already a great place to find good programmers, because you can see how good people really are by reading the answers that they post. I’ve noticed a lot of people putting their Stack Overflow reputations on their resumes, and we’re starting to hear stories of people who got jobs through the site. Jeff and I are committed to building features to make this easier in the next “six to eight” weeks. For example, I’ve always hated traditional resumes, which just don’t give the right kind of information about a candidate. If you wanted to hire an iPhone developer, would you rather know that person’s Stack Overflow stats in the iPhone tag and read their answers to technical questions? Or would you rather know where they went to college?

If we pull this off, getting jobs in the tech industry will be a lot saner."


I'm not sure at this point where I sit in this debate; but I thought you all might be interested in a reasoned opinion on the pro side.

Views

5.5K

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Mentor ,
Jun 03, 2009 Jun 03, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

S.D.A. wrote:

I was reading Joel on Software today and he was talking about "Stack Overflow" which is a very successful Q&A forum for programmers by programmers.  Joel makes the point that the Stack Overflow board (which is similar to these forums in that it's a technical support forum) uses a point system. Joel goes on to write;

"It’s not much of a secret, but Stack Overflow is already a great place to find good programmers, because you can see how good people really are by reading the answers that they post. I’ve noticed a lot of people putting their Stack Overflow reputations on their resumes, and we’re starting to hear stories of people who got jobs through the site. Jeff and I are committed to building features to make this easier in the next “six to eight” weeks. For example, I’ve always hated traditional resumes, which just don’t give the right kind of information about a candidate. If you wanted to hire an iPhone developer, would you rather know that person’s Stack Overflow stats in the iPhone tag and read their answers to technical questions? Or would you rather know where they went to college?

If we pull this off, getting jobs in the tech industry will be a lot saner."


I'm not sure at this point where I sit in this debate; but I thought you all might be interested in a reasoned opinion on the pro side.

personally it doesn't affect me one way or the other I don't give points and I don't answer question for points. Frankly the only time I notice them all is if I happen to mousover my avatar.

But I get the impression from most of the people Fussing about the points. Have the opinion anyone other than them have the brain of a Turnip. So people asking legimate questions, with their Turnip Brains don't know enough to decide whether an answer, solves their problem. They think that only a 100 page disertation on the subject is the only correct answer to the question.

The object of answering questions is to solve problems. Whether the answer is a 5 liner, or ten page disertation; if  fixes the problem is all that matters.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 03, 2009 Jun 03, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

PjonesCET wrote:

The object of answering questions is to solve problems. Whether the answer is a 5 liner, or ten page disertation; if  fixes the problem is all that matters.

We have been over this several times in other threads. Do I need to ask again if this includes solutions of the type "hit the Esc key times three times in rapid succession, then knock three times on your table, then hit Esc another three times", which may miraculously work once for the poster, and never again for anyone else? Even if a hundred other persons with the same problem try this "solution" unsuccessfully and became unnecessarily frustrated because nobody in the know bothered to read the thread already marked as "Answered", and so none of the true solutions to the problem got to be posted?

Pity you find this so difficult to understand. Although, on second thoughts, perhaps it's really my fault because I have not explained myself sufficiently clearly because of my poor knowledge of your language?

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Claudio Su Inglés es mucho mejor que mi español!


Nevertheless none of the arguments I've heard on the "CON" side have convinced me of their validity. That's the bottom line.


Actually I lied previously ; after having slept on it I'm probably leaning more to the side of favouring the point system. Nothing personal. Everyone's concern for the individual asking the question is admirable -- I'm just not convinced that is the real reasoning behind the arguments.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Claudio Su Inglés es mucho mejor que mi español!


Nevertheless none of the arguments I've heard on the "CON" side have convinced me of their validity. That's the bottom line.

and again steve, you seem to have missed that claudio was responding to PJ, not to you? is that stuff not visible in whatever client you're using?

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

dave milbut wrote:

Claudio Su Inglés es mucho mejor que mi español!


Nevertheless none of the arguments I've heard on the "CON" side have convinced me of their validity. That's the bottom line.

and again steve, you seem to have missed that claudio was responding to PJ, not to you? is that stuff not visible in whatever client you're using?

Not when I'm posting via e-mail.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

S.D.A. wrote:

dave milbut wrote:

Claudio Su Inglés es mucho mejor que mi español!


Nevertheless none of the arguments I've heard on the "CON" side have convinced me of their validity. That's the bottom line.

and again steve, you seem to have missed that claudio was responding to PJ, not to you? is that stuff not visible in whatever client you're using?

Not when I'm posting via e-mail.

You're freaking incredible Dave.

so then am i freaking credible again?

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Not when I'm posting via e-mail. In the web interface, yes.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Not when I'm posting via e-mail. In the web interface, yes.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Not when I'm posting via e-mail. In the web interface, yes.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Advocate ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Oh Gawd, another thread that will need locking because of the repeat postings from Steve. Will somebody sort this bloody out!!!!!

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Advocate ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Kath-H wrote:

Oh Gawd, another thread that will need locking because of the repeat postings from Steve. Will somebody sort this bloody out!!!!!

lol - Feeling a little Jived lately? (big obnoxious smiley, for email users)

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
Jun 03, 2009 Jun 03, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

personally it doesn't affect me one way or the other

then why would you bother to clutter up this thread with not only a full quote of a long topic starter, but a long post about something that "doesn't affect me [you] one way or the other"?

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

You've lost me, what's your point ? You don't understand why I would want to

offer a reasoned opinion on a topic that seems to be of interest to you old

Web Xers ? You're freaking incredible Dave.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

dave milbut wrote:

then why would you bother to clutter up this thread with not only a full quote of a long topic starter, but a long post about something that "doesn't affect me [you] one way or the other"?

Actually that was a *partial* quote.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
Jun 03, 2009 Jun 03, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

The object of answering questions is to solve problems. Whether the answer is a 5 liner, or ten page disertation; if  fixes the problem is all that matters.

if that's the purpose of this forum, then yes, yes it is.

if the purpose of this forum is to TEACH adobe's users how to use [an adobe app] photoshop (the way the pros here taught me when i started back in '02 or so) then the points system is destroying this forum.

so maybe adobe needs to clear up the purpose of this forum. is it to be just questions and answers from now on? in effect, a radical shift in direction and departure from its roots? or is it to remain THE resource on the web to go to learn from real professionals how to use adobe's products?

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

if the purpose of this forum is to TEACH adobe's users how to use [an adobe app] photoshop (the way the pros here taught me when i started back in '02 or so) then the points system is destroying this forum.

i never did understand this sort of thinking. If those pros that you're referring to don't care about the points then how exactly are they destroying the forum? The purpose of the points is "primarily to encourage greater participation from those users who care about them." (apparently they are very well received on the programing sections)

On one hand, you guys say that the points are destroying the forums (based on ....) and on the other hand there are those in charge of the Community Help who say that they have solid data indicating that points have helped increase the overall value of the comments posted there. Gee, i wonder who i'll believe....

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

If those pros that you're referring to don't care about the points then how exactly are they destroying the forum?

many of them are insulted by them and have left. the format of the forums have changed becasue the new system discourages long teaching discourses with lots of back and forth an examples coming from the teachers and the students. this format encourages quick, dirty answers (as pj says, paraphrasing: who needs a discourse when ESC ESC UP UP DOWN LEFT RIGHT START works, and others add: even if that trashes your image!).

and on the other hand there are those in charge of the Community Help who say that they have solid data indicating that points have helped increase the overall value of the comments posted there

no offense to any but i don't believe that for a second. change that to maybe those who have some vested interest in the new forums or are in some way beholden to adobve mgmt are pushing the corporate line, then yes, you've got a point.

and who the $@** are "community help"? i haven't seen ANY "community help" in the last 7ish years except that provided by myself and other dedicated users to the adobe user "community".

Gee, i wonder who i'll believe....

hmm, maybe the guy who cares enough about adobe and it's products to spend the last 7 years donating his time helping people use adobe's programs? Gee, f*&k off with your snide "Gees" bish. thanks.

You're freaking incredible Dave.

um, sorry steve, you did notice that i was responding to pj who said he doesn't care, right?

If the intent was to change the flavor of the forums, they are being very successful! A lot of the old friendly banter is gone, and answers are given to try to satisfy the OPs question and no more. I feel it's a big shame.

exactly... that's all i was saying.and i feel that if that's the intent, adobe should come out and SAY so. then those of us who care about the programs and helping people make best use of them can move on and those who care about racking up meatballs can provide the free tech support for a change.

I am personally not against a point system per se, but I am opposed to the way it is implemented. If ALL users could give points (or kudos, or what-have-you) for a useful answer (and not just the OP), with no limit to just three per thread, people would be encouraged to give more complete and universally useful answers. I believe that such an implementation would promote the joint learning atmosphere instead of stunting it...

again, yes. and this was brought up in this specific forum when we were asked for feedback.

the focus of the forums hasn't shifted, all that happened was that they added points, don't blow this out of proportion.

you're wrong zeno! not only are you wrong, but you're speaking as if you're some sort of authority on it and if you have any pull with adobe (and it seems you do) then you're providing them with your wrong, skewed view of how things were vs. how they are.

how the heck would you know? where did you come from? how did you get authority? WHERE THE H&LL WERE YOU FOR THE LAST DECADE that you can compare the way the old forum works with the vapid eye candy we're being forced to use now? you sure as heck weren't providing adobe photoshop windows support...

GEE, "A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. he is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption in our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider in our business. He is part of it. We are not doing him a favor by serving him. He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so."

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

many of them are insulted by them and have left. the format of the forums have changed becasue the new system discourages long teaching discourses with lots of back and forth an examples coming from the teachers and the students. this format encourages quick, dirty answers (as pj says, paraphrasing: who needs a discourse when ESC ESC UP UP DOWN LEFT RIGHT START works, and others add: even if that trashes your image!).

so DON'T say you've never been given any good reasons. say you don't BELIEVE any of the reasons fine, but what i've said ISN'T NEW. it's what the volunteers have been saying since WE WERE ASKED for our opinion.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I posted this some hours ago, but it looks like my email didn't quite make it...

I think Dave hit the nail on the head.

Whoever implemented the point system obviously considers the forums a place where users should be encouraged to give free tech support to newbies for Adobe's products (and save Adobe money on tech support...), while traditionally it's been a place where users can learn from each other (pros and newbies alike) to get a greater depth of understanding of the programs.

If the intent was to change the flavor of the forums, they are being very successful! A lot of the old friendly banter is gone, and answers are given to try to satisfy the OPs question and no more. I feel it's a big shame.

What's getting all of us worked up is this shift in focus. If the entire purpose of posting is to increase ones point status, the forum has become a very shallow experience. While it is true that people might answer questions for points, the answers will likely be shallower answers.

I am personally not against a point system per se, but I am opposed to the way it is implemented. If ALL users could give points (or kudos, or what-have-you) for a useful answer (and not just the OP), with no limit to just three per thread, people would be encouraged to give more complete and universally useful answers. I believe that such an implementation would promote the joint learning atmosphere instead of stunting it...

Harbs

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

All good points. (Sorry!)


The word "shallow" is very apt related to the new atmosphere in the forums now.


People are posting in haste and giving incomplete answers in their quest for points.


I am pretty sure the Adobe grey suits have no idea of the havoc they have created, and probably wouldn't understand, even if it were spelled out to them in words of one syllable.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Whoever implemented the point system obviously considers the forums a place where users should be encouraged to give free tech support to newbies for Adobe's products (and save Adobe money on tech support...), while traditionally it's been a place where users can learn from each other (pros and newbies alike) to get a greater depth of understanding of the programs.

wrong, the points were introduced because they wanted to offer an incentive to those users who care about these sort of things. If i'm not mistaken, they were first introduced when the help system for Lightroom 2.0 went online. The reason why they introduced them to the forums is because they considered the points to be a success on Community Help.

What's getting all of us worked up is this shift in focus. If the entire purpose of posting is to increase ones point status, the forum has become a very shallow experience. While it is true that people might answer questions for points, the answers will likely be shallower answers.

the focus of the forums hasn't shifted, all that happened was that they added points, don't blow this out of proportion.

I am personally not against a point system per se, but I am opposed to the way it is implemented.

And i agree with you, and so do the higher ups. Let me quote one of those evil suits that plan to destroy the forums and all life as we know it (hope i won't get into hot watter over this )

We recognize that there's some understandable frustration with the point system, particularly in the forums, where the Jive-based implementation limits our customization options. However, we want you guys to know that we're working with Jive to see if they can improve their points workflow.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Zeno,

Thanks for that!

Perhaps I was a bit quick to point blame that this shift in focus was intentional. However, this shift in focus is very real. It's been felt by a lot of us.

If what you are saying is correct that there was no intent to create this shift in focus, then I'm very encouraged! I think I can deal with the bad implementation if there's hope for improvement. With a better implementation, the old flavor of the forums has a good chance of returning...

Harbs

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Steve, I was reading your opening post, and found very interesting this phrase in the text you quote:

If you wanted to hire an iPhone developer, would you rather know that person’s Stack Overflow stats in the iPhone tag and read their answers to technical questions?

I went to the original source and, as I understood things, the emphasis is not in a person's statistics, but in actually reading what that person has written when answering technical questions. The quality of those answers is what would really matter for me if I wanted to hire a developer. In fact, if you click on a person's avatar, you not only get several numbers that were meaningless for me, but also a list of links to that person's answers, with ratings I didn't try to discover how they are obtained.


So, I don't see your quotation as an argument in favour of the points system. Maybe it is helpful over there (it wasn't clear for me how and by whom points are awarded), but that doesn't necessarily make it helpful here, where it is the original poster who awards them. And, in the case of newcomers, this can be done for completely wrong reasons... And I very much doubt that someone wanting to hire an expert in using, say, InDesign, would come to the InDesign forum looking for orientation...

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Advocate ,
Jun 04, 2009 Jun 04, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Claudio is right, the only way a "point system" would be taken seriously is if it was a primary focus of a very popular and well known site.  Ebay might be the closest example.

Likes

translate

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines