Moderation and Thread Moving

[Guest]

I expressed a concern about moving thread from the Forum Comments (this thread:  http://forums.adobe.com/message/2223352#2223352 ) to another area of the forums.  The link still resides in the Forum Comments list.  I suggested that IF such a move were going to be made, folks should be aware that they are being taken AWAY from the Forum Comments area.  I don't feel this is an unreasonable consideration.  Yet, my entire post was summarily deleted without any mention that I had even existed.

Will someone please tell me why alerting the viewer that they are going to another area of the forum is such a heinous crime as to be fully deleted without comment?

hopper

[S_D_A_]

On Sat, Sep 05, 2009 at 01:13:55PM -0600, Captiv8r pounded the keys thusly:

I'd be willing to bet a substantial sum of money that if any research were performed, a new user has no clue or even cares about the E-Mail subscriptions. I've actually seen a few posts where the users commented on that feature that they didn't realize it would happen. They were concerned they would have to return to the forums and figure out where their post was to see if anyone replied. They were delighted when replies were automagickally E-Mailed to them.

Me to. Very reasoned response btw.

end

[Claudio_González1]

Curt Wrigley wrote:

greenjumpyone wrote:

Curt Wrigley wrote:

Claudio González wrote:

Hunt, if you fail to see the issue and think this is just a small group of resentful oldtimers protesting for nothing, please take a look at what has happened with this thread:

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/487684?tstart=0

The OP followed that thread just fine to the new location.   The only one complaining in the thread is you.

Curt, quit being rude.  You are just being thick headed about the reason for the complaint.  Claudio has been around the block a time or two and he is simply pointing out what the rest of us users (it would seem the moderators are immune to this) see as being confusing.

Would you rather he be confused about the thread moves and simply stay quiet about it?  Or is that only a rhetorical question to you?

I am pointing out that the purpose of these forums aree to help people.   The OP was directed to the right forum, WAS being helped until Claudio interupted the thread with his philosphy on thread moving, which was quite out of place and not at all helpful.  Keep things in perspective and you will see who is being rude.  Im not wasting any more of my time explaining the obvious.

Curt, I don't want to be as rude as you are being with me but, have you really taken a look at that thread? Did you notice messages 4 and 5, where to two persons -one of them the OP- who thought they were in the InDesign forum say they are not sure where they really were? Did you notice that my messages were in response to their disconcert, and before any helpful suggestion was posted from the InDesign forum, so they weren't interrupting anything? Did you notice that I later mentioned that what I had observed pointed to three changes of location of the thread, only to be dismissed by a mod because I was posting in the wrong thread/forum -a typical mod's way of evading an issue? If you did, and still think that it was me being rude by posting what I did from the Comments forum, but magically transferred to the InDesign one, then I am willing to apologize in public and agree that the confusion I seemed to see is only in my imagination.  Only, just remember the first two "do"s in the "Forum etiquette..." thread: Respect others and assume good faith.

[Curt Wrigley]

I noticed the OP, in the correct place, getting help from the right people until you interceeded and created a completly unnecessary rant about "moving threads" in a threasd where the OP was in process of getting help.   If you think that is rude; so be it.  Im just pointing out the facts.

[Captiv8r]

Hi all

@Claudio - I took a look at the thread being discussed here. I have to totally agree with Curt. Things seemed fine and all would probably have remained fine (between the OP and the person helping) had the thread not been pointed out that it originated in the Forum Comments forum. Your comments seemed to be the derailing factor and ended up in a rant about moving threads.

I'm not seeing where Curt or anyone else is being or has been rude to you. Can you please cite an example? After all, if we aren't aware of what is being interpeted as rudeness, how are we expected to change behavior?

Cheers... Rick

[Claudio_González1]

The OP was directed to the right forum, WAS being helped until Claudio interupted the thread with his philosphy on thread moving, which was quite out of place and not at all helpful.

As this is not true, it's rude. See my message immediately above, and compare with the thread in question if you think I'm lying.

[Curt Wrigley]

Your account confirms what I have been saying. (except the thread was not moved back and forth as you falsly claim)   If you hadnt hijacked the thread, the OP would have gotten help in the correct forum.   The only point of confusion were your posts which did not belong in the thread and were the only source of confusion.

[Claudio_González1]

There is no more deaf man than the one who doesn't want to listen. Freely translated from a Spanish saying.

The field is all yours. And kindly note that I have carefully avoided calling you a liar, but you haven't.

Do: Respect others. Assume good faith.

(http://forums.adobe.com/thread/414764, or are these guides one sided?).

[Claudio_González1]

Just to show that I have been acting in good faith: I have just noticed that the thread in question is still listed in this forum when I use Safari (Win) and Firefox (Mac), but not when I use Explorer (Win). Couldn't it also be just possible that, at the time I posted my message of this morning wholly from within this forum (I know how to read breadcrumbs), the software was not redirecting me to the InDesign forum?

[Jochem van Dieten]

Claudio González wrote on 9/6/2009 2:40 AM:

Just to show that I have been acting in good faith: I have just noticed that the thread in question is still listed in this forum when I use Safari (Win) and Firefox (Mac), but not when I use Explorer (Win). Couldn't it also be just possible that, at the time I posted my message of this morning wholly from within this forum (I know how to read breadcrumbs), the software was not redirecting me to the InDesign forum?

No. The only place the web interface lets you post a reply is from

inside the thread. The caching problem is specific to the forum overview

and not the thread display. You may have accessed the thread from the

Forum comments forum if the forum was out of sync, but the thread

displays its own location correctly.

[Claudio_González1]

jochemd wrote:

Claudio González wrote on 9/6/2009 2:40 AM:

Just to show that I have been acting in good faith: I have just noticed that the thread in question is still listed in this forum when I use Safari (Win) and Firefox (Mac), but not when I use Explorer (Win). Couldn't it also be just possible that, at the time I posted my message of this morning wholly from within this forum (I know how to read breadcrumbs), the software was not redirecting me to the InDesign forum?

No. The only place the web interface lets you post a reply is from

inside the thread. The caching problem is specific to the forum overview

and not the thread display. You may have accessed the thread from the

Forum comments forum if the forum was out of sync, but the thread

displays its own location correctly.

Well, all I can say is that this morning, when I opened that thread from this forum and while I was writing my message, I was very careful to look at the breadcrumbs, which read

Adobe Forums > Adobe general forums > Forum comments > Discussions

And the previous night the thread was not appearing in the list of topics of this forum. As an ignorant in the field of the running of the forums, I can think of only two possible explanations for this: either the thread had been moved back to this forum, or the software wasn't working as expected. That is why I was careful not to say that the thread had been moved, only that it seemed that I had witnessed these movements.

So I leave it to the experts to find a third explanation, which might in passing help in solving the double listing bug (yes, the thread in question is still showing in the list of topics of this forum).

[Claudio_González1]

No, Curt, I'm sorry to have to say that you are not pointing out the facts, but distorting them:

1. Yesterday, kirklande posted a message in the Comments forum with an InDesign question.

2. Within minutes, Marvin posted from the Comments forum a somewhat weird but not unlikely suggestion to solve kirklande's problem.

3. Just some minutes later, and not having seen Marvin's message, I politely suggest kirklande, still from the Comments forum, to repost his question in the InDesign forum. No interruption or rant of any kind.

4. Again within minutes, kirklande wrote that he didn't notice he was in the wrong forum, and explained how he may have got there. His phrase "I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a forum about forums" suggests that he was still in the Comments forum, or thought he was.

5. Minutes later, Marvin posted just this question: "Actually this is the main InDesign forum. ??". This was quickly followed by kirklande's comment "I was wondering the same thing.  I think somehow it got switched to this  forum?", both of which which suggest that the thread had already been moved to the InDesign forum.

6. As these messages clearly show that they weren't sure where they were or what had happened, I tried to explain both things. So far, the OP had not received any help whatsoever in the correct forum, so I wasn't interrupting anything, or creating any rant.

7. The following morning, I found that the thread had been moved back to the Comments forum, so I posted a message from the Comments forum commenting on this. As nothing had been posted since my previous message, again I wasn't interrupting anything; and I was posting in the correct forum.

8. About half an hour later, Peter posted a message saying that the thread had definitely been moved to the InDesign forum. As this didn't coincide exactly with what I was seeing -the thread was still listed in the Comments forum- I wrote pointing this out. I also said that, this time, I had been moved to the InDesign forum for writing my message.

9. While I was writing the last mentioned message, Peter posted the first -and also the last until I started writing this message- helpful message for kirklande's problem after Marvin's original one from the Comments forum. So, to the best of my knowledge, I still hadn't knowingly interrupted anything.

Curt, we all know that hosts have the force to censor and delete messages, and to move or eliminate whole threads, without giving any explanation to us users. May I ask you that, if for whatever reason you feel like explaining your own acts and/or those of other hosts, you limit yourself to facts? Some of us really don't like being blamed for things we haven't done. Thank you.

Message was edited by: Claudio González. Reason: changing a wrong name.

[Jochem van Dieten]

greenjumpyone wrote on 9/5/2009 7:07 PM:

Would you rather he be confused about the thread moves and simply stay quiet about it?

If he can't post about his confusion in the proper place: yes. How hard

is it not to start in a thread about an Adobe product but in a thread

dedicated to forum issues?

[Jhabrix]

jochemd wrote:

If he can't post about his confusion in the proper place: yes. How hard

is it not to start in a thread about an Adobe product but in a thread

dedicated to forum issues?

Hello... that's kind of Double Dutch... what exactly are you trying to say?

[Claudio_González1]

jochemd wrote:

greenjumpyone wrote on 9/5/2009 7:07 PM:

Would you rather he be confused about the thread moves and simply stay quiet about it?

If he can't post about his confusion in the proper place: yes. How hard

is it not to start in a thread about an Adobe product but in a thread

dedicated to forum issues?

I am more confused than ever. Is this message posted in the proper place?

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2229384#2229384

It's obviously not in a new thread, and it's not in a thread dedicated to forum issues, but the author does complain for the confusion created to him by moving his thread. However, a host/moderator had previously said that he had been notified of the moving. Just where is the dividing line?

Pardon me if I seem insistent, but if the rules are not clear, you can't expect us users to follow them. Just removing messages and closing threads doesn't seem to be enough. Perhaps some of us are so dumb that we need to be told why the messages were removed and the threads were closed.

[Guest]

Claudio,

clearly the rules are dynamic ... changing before we can get them figured out.  I agree with you, posting the question, IN THE THREAD in which the confusion existed made sense to me.  Guess my sense doesn't matter, as I am not a moderator.

Jochem,

are you really moderating the forum based on a program and program "rules"?  From my view, that's like using parental controls for "bad" words, such as breast.  All websites with the word breast are blocked ... but what if one is doing research on breast cancer?  Oh wait, breast is a bad word, therefore, no go, it's blocked.  <sigh> I do believe that forum moderation requires more a personal touch and not an automated robotic approach.

Where have all the other (read:  previous) moderators gone??

[Guest]

and not an automated robotic approach.

Good description!

[Guest]

Users are human. Maybe the "moderators" are robots.

They certainly give that impression! 

[Jochem van Dieten]

greenjumpyone wrote on 9/7/2009 12:21 AM:

are you really moderating the forum based on a program and program "rules"?

I disliked the forums interface so I wrote my own interface. That

interface has rules to take certain actions in response to messages

based on criteria I enter. Some of the actions I have implemented are:

- client side mark as read: e.g. if I want to ignore all messages from

certain people I can just enter the forum and the userID and I will

never be alerted to any message they post.

- client side alert: e.g. start bouncing in the tray when JC has posted

in the Forum comments forum. That alert then has one-click options to

reply, delete, lock or a two-click move option. Those options act on the

server.

- automatic server side move: move thread on the server to the

'moderation' area where it will be assessed by a moderator.

- automatic server side delete: delete every new message somebody posts.

So far I haven't had a chance to test the automatic server-side actions

yet, but the manual stuff is well tested and I am considering adding a

special 'moderator edition' for the next release.

Where have all the other (read: previous) moderators gone??

The got tired of the incessant whining of certain individuals who keep

repeating the same message over and over again, regardless of what the

original topic of the thread was.

[Guest]

jochemd wrote:

The got tired of the incessant whining of certain individuals who keep

repeating the same message over and over again, regardless of what the

original topic of the thread was.

Most of the good ones never re-appeared at all after the switch to jive.

Don't spread spin!

[Guest]

In fact a lot of our favourites announced their departure before the "whining" started in here!

[Guest]

so, the bottom line is that there is automation in how you moderate the forum?

regarding the whinning, as you call it, I guess you are aiming that at me, as well as at others.  I try very hard to give helpful suggestions.  I try very hard to be polite.  I try very hard to report what I see as being issues.  I don't get the respect that I know I deserve, in part, because you guys don't know who I am or how long I have been around.  The other long time users are also not getting their due respect either.  You guys won't see the fact that we are all trying to HELP.  You, instead, call it incessant whinning.

As a group of moderators, you never cease to amaze me with your lack of understanding of the people of these forums.

edit:  and John is fully right about when many of the older moderators left.  Some were leaving on their own, some were asked to leave, others just seemed to fade away.  You expect us to state facts, perhaps you would be served well to do the same.

[Guest]

greenjumpyone wrote:

As a group of moderators, you never cease to amaze me with your lack of understanding of the people of these forums.

Robots.

[Jochem van Dieten]

greenjumpyone wrote on 9/7/2009 7:23 PM:

so, the bottom line is that there is automation in how you moderate the forum?

Of course. Just like people who have email rules to file forum email in

a particular folder and delete it after 30 days have automation. But (so

far) every moderation action outside my own forum happened because I

clicked a button after reading the message posted.

regarding the whinning, as you call it, I guess you are aiming that at me

Not particularly. You have hardly posted here in the period that saw

them all disappear.

I try very hard to give helpful suggestions. I try very hard to be polite. I try very hard to report what I see as being issues. I don't get the respect that I know I deserve, in part, because you guys don't know who I am or how long I have been around.

And I suppose I should respect the Queen for who she is as well. Sorry,

but I don't. Or strike that, I am not sorry about that.

You get weighed on what you contribute. Posting in a thread about some

other issue about moderation moves the scales to the left. Posting the

actual suggestion that the forum name should be mentioned in the message

announcing a thread move moves the scales to the right. And it is kind

of sad that not posting profanity is already sufficient to move the

scales even further to the right.

What you get from that is that I pay close attention to what you write

and think a bit longer before replying. What you don't get from that is

that I will accept accept your arguments with less scrutiny.

You guys won't see the fact that we are all trying to HELP. You, instead, call it incessant whinning.

There is a small group of people here who have been told that what they

are doing is not helping, but is making the situation worse. Yet they

continue to do so. And at the same time those same people are not doing

what they have been told would help the situation. How should I call

their behaviour?

[Guest]

Look Jochem,  I am not out to win a popularity contest with you or anyone else.  I have many other things in my life that matter lots more than what you think of me.  My point was that you have a very small yardstick that you are using to measure *any* of the participants in this forum.  But you tend to wield that yardstick heavily.

Many of us go back a LOT of years ... we know each other, online, because we took the time to learn about each other and the moderators.  I don't see that happening with the new set of moderators.  Instead, what I see are moderators trying to push their power/might/will whatever you wish to call it on the forum participants.  You know, we *do* know things, we *can* share things, but when the atmosphere is so negative and we get slapped down enough, who wants to stick around for the beatings?  In the end, it's unfortunate, but you guys will win the battle, but you will lose the war.  Valuable contributors have left and there aren't that many of the "old" ones left.  I guess your job here is almost done.

There are some in here who have made it their mission to make your life as miserable as they can, and the sad part is, you rise to their baiting.

There are others in here, and I include myself in this group, who have tried had to help out, but we are also getting hit by the same yardstick.

I tend to respect people until they give me a reason NOT to ... I'm not seeing much of that around here from the moderators. 

[S_D_A_]

On Mon, Sep 07, 2009 at 12:15:44PM -0600, greenjumpyone uttered:

Look Jochem,  I am not out to win a popularity contest with you or anyone else.  I have many other things in my life that matter lots more than what you think of me.  My point was that you have a very small yardstick that you are using to measure any of the participants in this forum.  But you tend to wield that yardstick heavily.

Many of us go back a LOT of years ... we know each other, online, because we took the time to learn about each other and the moderators.  I don't see that happening with the new set of moderators.  Instead, what I see are moderators trying to push their power/might/will whatever you wish to call it on the forum participants.  You know, we do know things, we can share things, but when the atmosphere is so negative and we get slapped down enough, who wants to stick around for the beatings?  In the end, it's unfortunate, but you guys will win the battle, but you will lose the war.  Valuable contributors have left and there aren't that many of the "old" ones left.  I guess your job here is almost done.

There are some in here who have made it their mission to make your life as miserable as they can, and the sad part is, you rise to their baiting.

There are others in here, and I include myself in this group, who have tried had to help out, but we are also getting hit by the same yardstick.

I tend to respect people until they give me a reason NOT to ... I'm not seeing much of that around here from the moderators. 

Nah it's just that by benefit of being here long enough AND frequent enough

certain individuals formed a cliche and expect to be treated "better" or to get a pass or

gratifying devotion from new moderators. <shrug> Gawd and the last few are

going to go fighting, dawg gone it !

end