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Observations on the "New & Improved" Forum

LEGEND ,
Jul 26, 2009

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I've now lived with the new forum for a bit. I've been posting and replying to similar threads in the Adobe Premiere Video Lounge, since the changeover, but after some reflection, realize that this is a better place to, er-r-r vent. Still, there are some good points, so I'll list those first.

Ah, the new fora. Still getting used to them. Here are some reflections on the Pros & Cons, as I see them with IE7:

Pros:

1.) The general layout is nice

2.) Being able to add a link quickly, is a real positive

3.) The indentation of replies, to other than the OP. (More on this in the Cons section)

4.) The formatting capabilities are great, and easy to set, plus apply

5.) Ease of adding screen-caps, etc., is greatly appreciated.

Cons:

1.) Sometimes really slow, but could just be server overload, or maintenance?

2.) Sometimes the server will jump fora. You will be replying to a post in, say the PrPro CS4 forum, get the editing window, and hit Post Reply, to see that it went to some thread in the Acrobat forum.

3.) The slight color differentiation between "read," [updated] and "unread" threads on the main page, could be much better.

4.) The loss of the "red flags," is greatly missed

5.) The "New" banner on new posts is greatly missed

6.) The expansion of all replies, when opening an older thread is bothersome. I do like the Reply to and the indentation in Threaded View (not available in Flattened View, though now you get the post numbers, which are good for referencing in later posts). On the Chowhound (food and wine) forum, one has the ability to Reply To and the Replies are indented, as here. The biggest difference is that when one goes to an article for the first time, all replies are open and threaded, like here. Once they have visited that thread once, however, on the next visit all replies and Replies To will be closed. It's very easy to see the new posts since the last visit. Each reply has an "Expand" button, should you need to read it, and there is also an "Expand All" button at the top of the article page. This does away with the need for the old "New" banners from the previous forum. I do have to say that I was one, who championed the Reply To and indentions. I just did not expect it to be quite like this. Be careful what you wish for...

7.) Learning to NOT use Back, once I’ve posted, is coming along slowly

8.) Searching the old fora was pretty easy, if limited. The new Search *starts out* looking good, until you try to limit the Search to just one (or a group) of forum. Then, you have to scroll down a list of every product (and also many languages) that Adobe has ever made. You cannot override the drop-down (that I can find), and just type in "Encore," or "Premiere." The additon of "People" is good, but it seems that the search engine can't find most of them, even some of the forum MOD's.

9.) When a forum has multiple pages and you are past #1, going back to "Discussion" always takes me back to page #1. There has got to be some navigational trick that will get me back to page #X, regardless of whether I’ve posted, or am just reading. When you are doing anything on a subsequently later page, in a multi-page forum, you cannot stay there, even if all you do is read one reply. You are ALWAYS taken back to page 1.

10.) The loss of many stickies, especially some of the FAQ’s and instruction on posting good questions with proper info. Seems that the various MOD's are working overtime on getting many of these back. I applaud their efforts. It is not being missed.

11.) The inability for the cookies to be recognized, when entering the forum and logging-in is a hassle. A bigger hassle is getting logged-out, even if you just posted 40 sec. before. For all longer posts, I’ve taken to using a wordprocessor, as so many of my posts have been lost, because I got logged-out in the process. I have used the "Recover Previous," that in some cases saved having to re-type everything, but like an AutoSave in Premiere, you could still have lost a lot of editing.

I will have to say that often I have been amazed, as I’ve gone three full days and each visit I’ve been logged-in fine. Other times, I will have to manually do it for each and every session.

Just some personal observations, with more in the works, as I explore.

Hunt

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Observations on the "New & Improved" Forum

LEGEND ,
Jul 26, 2009

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I've now lived with the new forum for a bit. I've been posting and replying to similar threads in the Adobe Premiere Video Lounge, since the changeover, but after some reflection, realize that this is a better place to, er-r-r vent. Still, there are some good points, so I'll list those first.

Ah, the new fora. Still getting used to them. Here are some reflections on the Pros & Cons, as I see them with IE7:

Pros:

1.) The general layout is nice

2.) Being able to add a link quickly, is a real positive

3.) The indentation of replies, to other than the OP. (More on this in the Cons section)

4.) The formatting capabilities are great, and easy to set, plus apply

5.) Ease of adding screen-caps, etc., is greatly appreciated.

Cons:

1.) Sometimes really slow, but could just be server overload, or maintenance?

2.) Sometimes the server will jump fora. You will be replying to a post in, say the PrPro CS4 forum, get the editing window, and hit Post Reply, to see that it went to some thread in the Acrobat forum.

3.) The slight color differentiation between "read," [updated] and "unread" threads on the main page, could be much better.

4.) The loss of the "red flags," is greatly missed

5.) The "New" banner on new posts is greatly missed

6.) The expansion of all replies, when opening an older thread is bothersome. I do like the Reply to and the indentation in Threaded View (not available in Flattened View, though now you get the post numbers, which are good for referencing in later posts). On the Chowhound (food and wine) forum, one has the ability to Reply To and the Replies are indented, as here. The biggest difference is that when one goes to an article for the first time, all replies are open and threaded, like here. Once they have visited that thread once, however, on the next visit all replies and Replies To will be closed. It's very easy to see the new posts since the last visit. Each reply has an "Expand" button, should you need to read it, and there is also an "Expand All" button at the top of the article page. This does away with the need for the old "New" banners from the previous forum. I do have to say that I was one, who championed the Reply To and indentions. I just did not expect it to be quite like this. Be careful what you wish for...

7.) Learning to NOT use Back, once I’ve posted, is coming along slowly

8.) Searching the old fora was pretty easy, if limited. The new Search *starts out* looking good, until you try to limit the Search to just one (or a group) of forum. Then, you have to scroll down a list of every product (and also many languages) that Adobe has ever made. You cannot override the drop-down (that I can find), and just type in "Encore," or "Premiere." The additon of "People" is good, but it seems that the search engine can't find most of them, even some of the forum MOD's.

9.) When a forum has multiple pages and you are past #1, going back to "Discussion" always takes me back to page #1. There has got to be some navigational trick that will get me back to page #X, regardless of whether I’ve posted, or am just reading. When you are doing anything on a subsequently later page, in a multi-page forum, you cannot stay there, even if all you do is read one reply. You are ALWAYS taken back to page 1.

10.) The loss of many stickies, especially some of the FAQ’s and instruction on posting good questions with proper info. Seems that the various MOD's are working overtime on getting many of these back. I applaud their efforts. It is not being missed.

11.) The inability for the cookies to be recognized, when entering the forum and logging-in is a hassle. A bigger hassle is getting logged-out, even if you just posted 40 sec. before. For all longer posts, I’ve taken to using a wordprocessor, as so many of my posts have been lost, because I got logged-out in the process. I have used the "Recover Previous," that in some cases saved having to re-type everything, but like an AutoSave in Premiere, you could still have lost a lot of editing.

I will have to say that often I have been amazed, as I’ve gone three full days and each visit I’ve been logged-in fine. Other times, I will have to manually do it for each and every session.

Just some personal observations, with more in the works, as I explore.

Hunt

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Jul 26, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Jul 26, 2009

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Sadly your observations have/will fall on deaf ears.

Adobe just doesn't care about these forums or even recognize what a gem they had.

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Jul 26, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Jul 26, 2009

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Unfortunately, you are probably correct.

I had posted the first iteration of the observations to the Premiere Lounge. My main reason was hoping that first others would post some tips, and prove that I was just doing something wrong, or looking at the wrong part of the new screen. Second, I hope that the MOD's might be able to work on some of these. Heck, they had their hands ful, just trying to rebuild the lost FAQ's, let alone make any changes in their realm.

Still, here's hoping that someone IS assigned to read this forum, and will get an idea, or two.

Hunt

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Jul 26, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Jul 26, 2009

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4.) The loss of the "red flags," is greatly missed

these?

1.jpg

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Jul 26, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Jul 26, 2009

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Dave,

Thank you for that. I am glad that it is not just this crusty old bird, who misses those. We may be lone voices in the wilderness, but we still have feelings too.

Hunt

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Jul 26, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Jul 27, 2009

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the_wine_snob wrote:

Dave,

Thank you for that. I am glad that it is not just this crusty old bird, who misses those. We may be lone voices in the wilderness, but we still have feelings too.

Hunt

you know, if you have stylish or greasemonkey installed (firefox or opera) you can get the flags back with a stylesheet i wrote:

http://userstyles.org/styles/17070

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Jul 27, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Jul 27, 2009

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Dave where is the script located to change the font to Verdana?

I'd like to add to that user script I believe you suggested.  It seems to work with FireFox, SeaMonkey, Opera, OmniWeb, Safari, and iCab I'd like to use Verdana 12pt.

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Jul 27, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Jul 27, 2009

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try here:

http://userstyles.org/styles/browse/all/http:%2F%2Fforums.adobe.com%2Fmessage%2F2134910/popularity/desc/1

i think it was mike or eric's script... not sure who "heavyboots" is over at userstyles.org.

i'm aikodude.

there is no spoon.

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Jul 27, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Jul 27, 2009

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Dave,

Maybe it is time to give up my IE7 and go to FireFox, or similar.

There do seem to be some useful scripts available for the other browsers and some appear to work better with the Adobe fora.

In general, I spend most of my Internet time on Adobe, Creative Cow and Chowhound and one or two similar fora. For all but the Adobe (now), IE7 has gotten me by nicely. It's one of those "old dogs - new tricks" sorta' things. Guess I gotta' go with the flow.

Thanks,

Hunt

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Mentor ,
Jul 27, 2009

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Thanks. Now see if I can incorporate it in to my userContent.css file

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Enthusiast ,
Jul 26, 2009

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1.) The general layout is nice

I say potato, you say potahto.  I was happy with the former forum's layout.  This doesn't add anything of value and wastes lots of space on-screen, which can be mitigated with scripts.

2.) Being able to add a link quickly, is a real positive

Now we have an icon to do it easily, agreed.  But was it really so difficult to type <a href="URL">text</a>?

4.) The formatting capabilities are great, and easy to set, plus apply

Easy, but the defaults are sticky rather than your preferences.  I never want to post in Arial.  The formatting choices often change by themselves from what you have selected, also.  Very quirky editor.  Formatting is definitely easier now, I will admit.

5.) Ease of adding screen-caps, etc., is greatly appreciated.

True, but using Pixentral for those wasn't exactly a big deal.

3.) The slight color differentiation between "read," [updated] and "unread" threads on the main page, could be much better.

Agreed, but this is a minor issue.

4.) The loss of the "red flags," is greatly missed

5.) The "New" banner on new posts is greatly missed

The reason for these is that Jive is the first conferencing software since the 1980s that is incapable of remembering what a user has seen or not seen.  This isn't a bug — it's a feature!  It discourages users from following long and complex threads and thereby makes threads simple and short, so that questions get asked, answered, and moved on.  Why should Adobe encourage people to engage in lengthy discussions about color management, JPEG inaccuracy, or other esoteric topics using its servers?  Why not simply facilitate asking and answering?  A user forum isn't a BBS; it's a substitute for a paid help desk!

7.) Learning to NOT use Back, once I’ve posted, is coming along slowly

See my comment on #9 below.

9.) When a forum has multiple pages and you are past #1, going back to "Discussion" always takes me back to page #1. There has got to be some navigational trick that will get me back to page #X, regardless of whether I’ve posted, or am just reading. When you are doing anything on a subsequently later page, in a multi-page forum, you cannot stay there, even if all you do is read one reply. You are ALWAYS taken back to page 1.

Go back to the top of the page and click on "Up to Discussions in Forum comments".  It will take you to the last page of the forum topic list you were on.  I asked repeatedly that a copy of this link be added to the bottom of the page and was, predictably, ignored.  I have read that once you have done this, you can use the back button to get to the same page, but I have not verified when and whether this works.

11.) The inability for the cookies to be recognized, when entering the forum and logging-in is a hassle. A bigger hassle is getting logged-out, even if you just posted 40 sec. before. For all longer posts, I’ve taken to using a wordprocessor, as so many of my posts have been lost, because I got logged-out in the process. I have used the "Recover Previous," that in some cases saved having to re-type everything, but like an AutoSave in Premiere, you could still have lost a lot of editing.

I haven't had the log-out problem during a session, but I haven't been nearly as active here since Jive.  The cookie good for only 24 hours is a PITA.

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Jul 26, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Jul 26, 2009

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Pixentral is a pain if you know it and most who don't know it get it wrong.


Regarding links, most photographers I know, don't know HTML

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Jul 26, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Jul 27, 2009

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Thank you for your comments,

I was happy with the former forum's layout.  This doesn't add anything of value and wastes lots of space on-screen, which can be mitigated with scripts.

I liked the old format as well. There are some features, however, that I like in the new forum format. The "More Like This" frame, for instance. I could have lived with the old, but this aspect of the new is not all bad, IMHO.

Now we have an icon to do it easily, agreed.  But was it really so difficult to type <a href="URL">text</a>?

Well, for things like this, I had a "cheat sheet" of the various HTML code. I think the simple icon is an improvement.

I never want to post in Arial.  The formatting choices often change by themselves from what you have selected, also.  Very quirky editor.  Formatting is definitely easier now, I will admit.

I guess that I spend too much of my time doing titles for video, so Arial is a font that gets used a lot.

True, but using Pixentral for those wasn't exactly a big deal.

I find the new method much easier, and far quicker. I can create and add a screen-cap in moments. The biggest time consuming step is usually opening PrPro and PS, to do the cap, caption it, then Save to my Adobe Forum images folder - click and it's linked.

Agreed, but this is a minor issue.

I do not know how minor. When designing a site (or an ad), readibility is a big point.

This isn't a bug — it's a feature!  It discourages users from following long and complex threads and thereby makes threads simple and short, so that questions get asked, answered, and moved on.  Why should Adobe encourage people to engage in lengthy discussions about color management, JPEG inaccuracy, or other esoteric topics using its servers?  Why not simply facilitate asking and answering?  A user forum isn't a BBS; it's a substitute for a paid help desk!

I'm not so sure on Adobe's motive then, per your statements. It would seem that a software company, such as Adobe, would be most interested in the clients getting the most our of their software purchases. If they can learn color for print, video or the Web, from the forum, it would be in Adobe's best interest to support that sort of discussion. Heck, it would save having to discuss it on Adobe TV. If what you say is the Adobe "party line," why do so many of the fora have "Lounges?" I mean, what would be the purpose of that?

Go back to the top of the page and click on "Up to Discussions in Forum comments".  It will take you to the last page of the forum topic list you were on.  I asked repeatedly that a copy of this link be added to the bottom of the page and was, predictably, ignored.  I have read that once you have done this, you can use the back button to get to the same page, but I have not verified when and whether this works.

Unfortunately, on IE7, that takes one to the first page, of a multi-page forum. So does every other operation, unless you click back up the hierarchy, and then you go up a level in the fora, say from PrPro CS4 to the main PrPro level. Maybe it's my browser, but everything takes you to page 1, or up a level, never to the page you're on.

The comment about the Back button was specific to the view of the page with one's recently posted reply. In the old forum, Back took you to the forum article page, one level up from the thread that you just posted to. Now, it takes you "back" to a blank reply editing screen. I was just so used to hitting Back from the old days, that it's a habit I have to break 100%.

I haven't had the log-out problem during a session, but I haven't been nearly as active here since Jive.  The cookie good for only 24 hours is a PITA.


I've had days, when I did not get logged-out, but too many more, where it happens all of the time.

Again, thanks for the comments,

Hunt

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Jul 27, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Jul 27, 2009

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"9.) When a forum has multiple pages and you are past #1, going back to "Discussion" always takes me back to page #1. There has got to be some navigational trick that will get me back to page #X, regardless of whether I’ve posted, or am just reading. When you are doing anything on a subsequently later page, in a multi-page forum, you cannot stay there, even if all you do is read one reply. You are ALWAYS taken back to page 1."

The best way around this is to open comments from page x as "open link in new tab or window".  Then when  done just close tab and you are back to where you were reading.  Works, but takes awhile to get use to rather than just clicking.

Comments nicely done, and I agree with them.  Especially miss the red flags and number of new comments added since last visit.

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Jul 27, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Jul 27, 2009

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The best way around this is to open comments from page x as "open link in new tab or window".  Then when  done just close tab and you are back to where you were reading.  Works, but takes awhile to get use to rather than just clicking.

Curt,

Thank you. I will have to give that a try. Most often, I'm on page X of y, looking for something in particular, so I'm most often just reading to see if this is what I am looking for. Unless there is a real need to do so, I don't often post to any of those threads. Often, I have drilled down maybe 10 pages, so I hate to be thrown back to page 1, and then have to navigate to page 10 (or was I on 11?). I will use your method. I knew there had to be a way, but I was just not smart enough to find it.

Appreciated,

Hunt

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Advocate ,
Jul 27, 2009

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the_wine_snob wrote:

Pros:

1.) The general layout is nice

2.) Being able to add a link quickly, is a real positive

3.) The indentation of replies, to other than the OP. (More on this in the Cons section)

4.) The formatting capabilities are great, and easy to set, plus apply

5.) Ease of adding screen-caps, etc., is greatly appreciated.

1) If by "nice" you mean, "confusing, difficult to navigate, inconvenient (any thread longer than one page..), and generally sucky", then you have a point. Layout and UI design = con.

2) Hm. IIRC http links worked fine in WebX and it was quick.

3) Indentation of replies.. couldn't care less about, WebX quotes worked fine. Not sure what's good about indented replies. All I see is the trouble they can cause when you're trying to work around the stupid boxes in the text reply box. So quotes are actually a con, to me.

4) Yea it's nice I guess. Can be picky at times on some browsers, but I suppose if you just have to bold something, it's moderately useful.

5) I guess that's nice.

Hmm... two 'nifty' features, you have a long list of crap problems that I won't dispute , and that isn't even all the cons.  Yep, Jiveware sucks pretty bad.  Why did they switch again?

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Jul 27, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Jul 27, 2009

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I will not attempt to defend #1, as much will be in the eye of the beholder. An ad that plays well with me, might not with you. Same for a Web layout.

As for the links, I personally find these easier to use quickly.

Now, let's talk about:

3) Indentation of replies.. couldn't care less about, WebX quotes worked fine. Not sure what's good about indented replies. All I see is the trouble they can cause when you're trying to work around the stupid boxes in the text reply box. So quotes are actually a con, to me.

As my entire life is not on the Adobe fora, I have come to greatly appreciate the ability to Reply To in many other fora. When implemented correctly, this helps one keep track of exactly what you are replying to, without having to include the entirity of a previous post in block quotations. As I say, "when implemented correctly." This is very, very important. The example that I cited was Chowhound. They implement it properly, but also close down seen/read replies, upon the next visit. You can expand any reply, or Expand All. Simple, useful and helps one find what is new (still miss the New banners and the flags in my IE7). Here, it's either/or. You get Flattened View to get post numbers, but no Reply To indentation, or Threaded View with the Reply To sub-threads, but no post numbers. When one uses a site that does it correctly, they will likely not wish to go back. This layout does not implement it correctly, so it is useless, IMO.

The rest were just my personal observations and the comments do not reflect the views of this station.

Hunt

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Advocate ,
Jul 28, 2009

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I think that's also a matter of personal preference.  I can't stand those "tree-like" views or whatever they are, the ones that branch off into a million different sub conversations.  (Assuming that's what you're talking about?)  Not to mention people end up responding 5 times when it could have been a single response addressing multiple posts.

I'd much rather have the quote in the new post since it's easier than tracking back to the post being replied to, and the responder can modify the quote only leaving the parts they are actually responding to.  And I'm much, much, much more used to the 'flat' format that is the default here, and the default on 99% of the Internet.

So I dunno, that's my reasoning.  Either way perhaps we can agree that Jive sucks for various reasons.

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Jul 28, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Sep 05, 2009

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Either way perhaps we can agree that Jive sucks for various reasons.

You will get no argment from me on that note.

I can't stand those "tree-like" views or whatever they are, the ones that branch off into a million different sub conversations.

I guess that because I have seen this implemented so well in other fora, I had hoped for better here. I did not get my "wish." I've actually gone back to the "flattened view," as it does give me the post #'s, and they can be referred to. Wish there was a hot-key to switch the view in IE, but all I've found is to go to my Options and change the view there.

Hunt

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Sep 05, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Jul 27, 2009

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I'm replying to part of my own post:

9.) When a forum has multiple pages and you are past #1, going back to "Discussion" always takes me back to page #1. There has got to be some navigational trick that will get me back to page #X, regardless of whether I’ve posted, or am just reading. When you are doing anything on a subsequently later page, in a multi-page forum, you cannot stay there, even if all you do is read one reply. You are ALWAYS taken back to page 1.

One thing that I have noticed is when a thread is more than one page (not the main forum pages), in this forum, I can post to Reply to, say a post on page two of that thread, and end up back on page 2 of that thread. Still does not work for, say page 2 of a forum/sub-forum, but I just observed this today.

Thought I'd add this, so folk do not get confused.

Hunt

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