Protecting our Copyright from being Misappropriated.

Explorer ,
Mar 21, 2009 Mar 21, 2009

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Before anyone posts ANY image in the New Forums, it is essential that they re-read Adobe's TOS and particularly the wording (and implications) of Clause 8.

Adobe has given themselves the power to purloin any "Content" posted or displayed on their web sites (meaning our original art and photographs) for ANY purpose, anywhere, and in perpetuity

Adobe's Legal Department need to address this matter with some urgency because the risk of loss of Artists' Rights is already damaging participation in some Forums severely:

The Photography Forum is one example as shown in these threads:

http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b85627/

Wade Zimmerman, "So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?" #, 19 Mar 2009 1...

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Explorer ,
Mar 21, 2009 Mar 21, 2009

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I think this information should be posted loud and clear.

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Explorer ,
Mar 21, 2009 Mar 21, 2009

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 21, 2009 Mar 21, 2009

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I would think that to professionals, who are most affected by these license terms, it might be a good idea to consult with a lawyer and get an answer once and for all.

these kinds of terms are far from "rare" on the internet these days. most of us treat them as the "price you gotta pay" to play, but if it's your lively hood, or if it were mine, i might want to know for sure rather than banter it about on a forum, or rely on the party setting the legal terms to "clear it up" by saying 'we have to say this to do that. even though it SAYS this, we'd NEVER DO that...'. if you know what i mean.

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Guru ,
Mar 21, 2009 Mar 21, 2009

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The only way I see around adobe's ability to steal, as they claim they can, is to just post a link only. Adobe claiming all rights like that cannot be legal just because they print it and say so for admission to the club. I don't see any poster willing to share under those terms.

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Guide ,
Mar 21, 2009 Mar 21, 2009

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All,

Keep on protesting directly to Adobe. They had to roll back similarly onerous terms shortly after they launched their online editing web site, Photoshop.com, in the face of outraged protests.

If similar pressure is applied this time too, they will have to modify the TOU like they did at Photoshop.com.

Adobe is powerful, but not almighty.

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Explorer ,
Mar 22, 2009 Mar 22, 2009

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>The only way I see around adobe's ability to steal, as they claim they can, is to just post a link only.

David:

That is my feeling too because the only "Content" that you have then posted on Adobe's web sites is a line of html text.

But the fact that people will now have the ability to post their images directly on Adobe's New Forum Sites is a trap for the unwary and holds the potential for all sorts of legal consequences involving Model and Property Releases if the "User's Content" is misappropriated for Advertising or other Commercial Purposes.

This is no small matter and Adobe Systems Inc. needs to think very seriously about what they are doing.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 22, 2009 Mar 22, 2009

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It is also an issue if the posted graphic is from a copyrighted site. There are many copyrighted photos out there that folks could post with the include from a web site. That raises a big legal question to me since the poster did not even have the right to post the graphic, but the new editor allows for links to a URL site.

I think that posting graphics is not a bad idea, but am concerned about the copyright issues and such, even if owned by the poster. It would be easy for Adobe to be in a bind only because a user links to a photo on another site that is copyrighted, and as such is not properly posted on Adobe's site. I have no clue about how such events could be policed. I just think the flags need to be up for a check in this area. It is not that other sites might not do it, but I thought that Adobe was paranoid about legal issues with the whole aspect of embedding fonts.

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Explorer ,
Mar 22, 2009 Mar 22, 2009

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The conditions you agree to when using the site specify that you undertake not to post others' copyright stuff.

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 22, 2009 Mar 22, 2009

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<judas priest>breakin' tha law! breakin' tha law!</judas priest><br /><br />and everyone reads and abides by click-wrap too. it's the law!*<br /><br />(hint: no, it's not.)

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Advisor ,
Mar 22, 2009 Mar 22, 2009

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>The only way I see around adobe's ability to steal, as they claim they can, is to just post a link only.

The way I read section 2b, where they define "Your Content" as used in section 8, posting a link still qualifies.

]"...any Materials that you upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available through your use of the Site or via the Services (Your Content).

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Advisor ,
Mar 22, 2009 Mar 22, 2009

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BTW, don't limit your concerns by thinking this applies only to images and photography.

Some time ago, I posted a link to a page on my site that includes - with permission - a script copyrighted by somebody else. I am in no position to grant rights to Adobe or anybody else to that content.

I will be moving some things around on my site tonight.

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Explorer ,
Mar 22, 2009 Mar 22, 2009

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The thing that needs to be defined is whether Adobe's "grab" applies only to "Content" posted directly onto an Adobe web site; or whether Adobe is also trying to lay claim to any or all material on distant web sites (that are not their property!) to which Links have been posted on Adobe's Sites.

I very much doubt that Adobe are planning to do that; and I am perfectly certain that they would face lawsuits for theft if they even attempted it; but this point does need clarification and an unambiguous statement of their position and Intent.

When the "posted content" is merely a line of html text, that should surely be the only "Content" that they are entitled to publish?

And if that line of html text is no longer a Live Link , what good does that do them anyway?

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Advisor ,
Mar 22, 2009 Mar 22, 2009

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Yes, I agree with all you've just said. In fact, in my case, the chance that Adobe would even want to use that ancient script I mentioned is so remote as to be laughable.

But it is not my script and he gave me permission to use it under certain conditions. That is not a laughing matter to me. As I interpret Adobe's TOU, those conditions may no longer be satisfied. I had do the responsible thing and make changes so those conditions could be met again.

It is a vague point we're discussing here, but all legaleze is written intentionally to be vague to the layman. It is written by lawyers for lawyers.

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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and again, just because an eula or tou SAYS they "own" something, doesn't make it fact. ianal but i know that much.

> I am perfectly certain that they would face lawsuits for theft

you'd be perfectly wrong. worst is they'd face lawsuits based on copyright or trademark infringement stuff. theft involves actual goods - no matter what, how loud or how many times the the big money tells you "copying is theft".

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Guru ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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Mark,
I agree with what you wrote.

This is a good reason not to even provide in private or even a link:

This is a catch all for 8.a.

" b.ii. When Your Content is Made Available through Services that are intended for private communication or which allow you to limit public access to Your Content and you do in fact limit public access."

In the case of Your Content covered by Section 8(b)(ii), you grant Adobe a worldwide, royalty-free, nonexclusive, and fully sublicensable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, publish and translate Your Content solely for the purpose of enabling your use of the Service. You may revoke this license and terminate Adobes rights at any time by removing Your Content from the Service.

So even in private communications, used in their forums, they get value. Thus your remark about a simple link to someones website falls under this web.

Sorry for beating a dead horse. Adobe can't be this hard up for material.

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Guide ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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>Adobe can't be this hard up for material.

No, but the staff at the Adobe legal department is hard up to justify their existence. :/

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Advisor ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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Hi David,

I read that section a little differently. It seems we are only granting them license to do all that stuff "solely for the purpose of enabling your use of the Service."

That one does seem reasonable to me, but then I haven't had my first cup of coffee, yet.

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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I don't believe it matters one bit what WE think. What is needed is a definitive statement by someone who speaks 'legalize". Better yet, let Adobe put the TOS into language that mere mortals can understand with an official statement from that same legal department.

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Advisor ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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And that, Bob, is _____________________ the bottom line.

Hopefully all the messages posted around here and the new forum has caught their eye.

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New Here ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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Adobe employees don't frequent these forums. They are user to user forum. They are used to keep consumers out of the hair of adobe corporate.

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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LEGEND ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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Thank you for that.

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Guru ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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Crap, I need to go buy a tin foil hat now. This Devo hat is just not cutting it anymore. :)

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Adobe Employee ,
Mar 23, 2009 Mar 23, 2009

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A similar brouhaha erupted last year over similar TOS on the photoshop.com website. Ultimately, Adobe Legal added wording to clear up what the whole issue was about and I suspect John Cornicello will arrange for similar clarification here.

In a nutshell, the key words in this "license" are for the purpose of enabling your use of the Service. Adobe claims no ownership of end users' content or any rights beyond those necessary to show the web page with the messages and content that you have posted. If you don't provide those rights to Adobe, it cannot legally display the page at all! It is unfortunate that these "great legal minds" cannot, at least on the first pass, provide wording that doesn't evoke all sorts of conspiracy theories such as those opined in this thread.

- Dov
- Dov Isaacs, Principal Scientist, Adobe

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