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Explorer ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Jochem:

There was no need to take that action, and to inform the OP of the "Virtual Machine" thread that you had done so.

That was both extremely rude  and totally unnecessary because the Thread would have ended naturally — probably after the OP had thanked people for their help.

This was yet another example of why so many of us feel that you are not suited to the job of "Moderator".

What you have to learn is that you are seen by Adobe's Customers as part of "Customer Service" and acting as you did just helps to build resentment against Adobe at a time when they have every reason to be concerned about the appalling standard of their "Customer Service".

This Forum has no need for this over-bearing form of "Moderation" — a Forum HOST, with a friendly demeanor and some real knowledge of technical issues (and without a meaningless "Community Expert" badge!) might be a different matter.

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"This thread is locked"

Explorer ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Jochem:

There was no need to take that action, and to inform the OP of the "Virtual Machine" thread that you had done so.

That was both extremely rude  and totally unnecessary because the Thread would have ended naturally — probably after the OP had thanked people for their help.

This was yet another example of why so many of us feel that you are not suited to the job of "Moderator".

What you have to learn is that you are seen by Adobe's Customers as part of "Customer Service" and acting as you did just helps to build resentment against Adobe at a time when they have every reason to be concerned about the appalling standard of their "Customer Service".

This Forum has no need for this over-bearing form of "Moderation" — a Forum HOST, with a friendly demeanor and some real knowledge of technical issues (and without a meaningless "Community Expert" badge!) might be a different matter.

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Oct 16, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Ann Shelbourne wrote:

Jochem:

<snipped>

This was yet another example of why so many of us feel that you are not suited to the job of "Moderator".

This Forum has no need for this over-bearing form of "Moderation" — a Forum HOST, with a friendly demeanor and some real knowledge of technical issues (and without a meaningless "Community Expert" badge!) might be a different matter.

Good one!

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

<snipped>

What you have to learn is that you are seen by Adobe's Customers as part of "Customer Service" and acting as you did just helps to build resentment against Adobe at a time when they have every reason to be concerned about the appalling standard of their "Customer Service".

<snipped>

It's like beating your head against a stone wall... they just don't seem to get it

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Enthusiast ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Oct 16, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Ann Shelbourne wrote on 10/16/2009 5:46 PM:

There was no need to take that action, and to inform the OP of the "Virtual Machine" thread that you had done so.

So I should not have informed anybody?

That was both extremely rude

Why?

and totally unnecessary because the Thread would have ended naturally — probably after the OP had thanked people for their help.

Help? Who provided help in that thread?

All I see is a bunch of nonsense without anybody willing to touch the

core issue that you can not distinguish a VM from a physical one from

inside the VM without help from ring 0, so that any licensing based on

IP addresses and distinguishing VMs is never going to work. Not to

mention that on a remote desktop environment (Citrix, Terminal Server

etc.) we are not even talking about different machines, but multiple

people are using the same machine and hence the same IP address. Or in a

NAT environment multiple systems can have the same IP address without

being VMs.

The licensing whatever from the OP is fundamentally wrong and the

answers provided in the thread make it painfully obvious that this is

neither the venue nor the audience to discuss that problem.

The way I see it I did the OP a service by cutting of any more clueless

answers, pointing in the direction of a more knowledgeable audience and

widening the scope to include options that stand a chance of actually

working.

This Forum has no need for this over-bearing form of "Moderation" — a Forum HOST, with a friendly demeanor and some real knowledge of technical issues (and without a meaningless "Community Expert" badge!) might be a different matter.

The only person with real technical knowledge relevant to the forums

operation I see participating in this forum is me (although there are

some others with an email subscription). Photoshop, Indesign, Premiere,

Illustrator etc. skills are as relevant to the technical issues of this

forum as Java programing, Unix administration, database management,

networking and internet protocols are to print or video publishing.

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Oct 16, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Well if you said it it must be correct – so I give up!

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Oct 16, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Oct 16, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

All I see is a bunch of nonsense without anybody willing to touch the

core issue that you can not distinguish a VM from a physical one from

inside the VM without help from ring 0, so that any licensing based on

IP addresses and distinguishing VMs is never going to work. Not to

mention that on a remote desktop environment (Citrix, Terminal Server

etc.) we are not even talking about different machines, but multiple

people are using the same machine and hence the same IP address. Or in a

NAT environment multiple systems can have the same IP address without

being VMs.

Sure about that?  Based on what I've been told that isn't necessarily the case.  But in any case, if you're so knowledgeable why didn't you help the OP in the first place?  They were already advised that they were asking the question in a completely wrong location, if someone takes anything here as gospel after being told that, it's their own fault.

The only person with real technical knowledge relevant to the forums

operation I see participating in this forum is me (although there are

some others with an email subscription).

So delete or ban everyone else and have conversations with yourself.  Or better yet, just delete the entire forum since nobody else here has the 'real technical knowledge relevant to the forums operation' anyway.  It's not completely true, but...

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Oct 16, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Oct 16, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

Ann Shelbourne wrote on 10/16/2009 5:46 PM:

<snipped for verbosity / irrelevance to my reply>

Actually, what a 'good' moderator would have done was:

1/ Either post your own thoughts on the subject – as you did in your reply to Ann

Or

2/ Keep quiet

And then, gently and politely guide the OP to an area where he/she could get an answer within these forums or, as Dec9 did, provide links that would give answers.

I think, what you fail to realise is that forums are primarily meant to be helpful. Off or on topic (vis-a-vis) a particular forum is a secondary issue.


Most people (apart from old users) think these are 'HELP' forums maintained by Adobe. They, therefore consider a lot of answers posted here to be from Adobe staff... particularly when they see the 'Community Expert' tag.

This has been further compounded by Adobe removing the "User-to-user Forums" tag. (Additionally, most other forums on a corporate / vendor site are monitored by the Company's personnel.)

Just locking a thread at this stage makes no sense... it also prevents the OP from coming back to thank those who replied or ask for a further direction. So you will say, "Further direction on this subject is not a part of this Forum's charter". That's where you and the rest of us seem to differ. We have a 'Help all' attitude whereas you seem to have a "Do it my way or else..." attitude. This last does not engender a happy forum. However, if your intention is to kill the forum, all i can say is that you seem to be doing a very good job.

If you would just relax a bit and take a step back, i am sure things in this forum would also improve markedly. At the moment, with the exception of other 'moderators' a very few 'users' all you are achieving is the creation of a negative reaction in the attitude of the regulars who post here.

Edited by shunithD to get rid of the ridiculous Jive formatting bugs...

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Oct 16, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Oct 16, 2009

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shunithD wrote on 10/16/2009 7:35 PM:

>> 1/ Either post your own thoughts on the subject – as you did in your reply to Ann

I am aware I could have entered into a question - answer sequence with

the OP that might eventually have led to a better outcome for the OP. I

didn't have time for that and the alternative, to

>> 2/ Keep quiet

, seemed like a worse option considering the quality of the answers

being provided. So I merged two of my answer templates and locked the

thread.

>> I think, what you fail to realise is that forums are primarily meant to be helpful.

And I maintain I was being helpful.

If you would just relax a bit and take a step back

I am taking steps back all the time. Just about every other day I let a

thread slip (sometimes on purpose, lately because I am just busy) and

just watch how people respond. And inevitably people will start posting

nonsense in those threads, after which I step in.

At the moment, with the exception of other 'moderators' a very few 'users' all you are achieving is the creation of a negative reaction in the attitude of the regulars who post here.

Those regulars need to make up their minds. If they want a forum with

less moderation, they need to show they can be trusted with that.

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Advocate ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Meanwhile we have shunithD who is not a forum "regular" or long time forum user, yet has already made many of the same observations and come to similar conclusions as the "biased and hateful regulars" here... how many people will it take before it's clear that this is not moderation?

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Advocate ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Ansury wrote:

Meanwhile we have shunithD who is not a forum "regular" or long time forum user

He isn't?

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Oct 16, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 16, 2009

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The name is new.  

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Advocate ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Ok so then who is this? lol

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Oct 16, 2009 0
Explorer ,
Oct 16, 2009

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Those regulars need to make up their minds. If they want a forum with

less moderation, they need to show they can be trusted with that.

That is yet another example of your appalling rudeness to Adobe's CUSTOMERS.

Some of the people who use this Forum have been Adobe Customers for more than 20 years and Users of, and Contributors to, these Forums since their original inception more than ten years ago.

We do NOT need the sort of Moderator "Service" that you are providing with posted answers cobbled together roboticly from "Templates".

I had no idea that you did that but it is an incredibly lazy way of working and does explain why you sometimes come across as an automaton — and a very discourteous one at that!

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Oct 16, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Oct 16, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

The name is new.  

I don't need to really explain, but just to put the record straight... actually, may seem new but is not / am not... and not an alias either... have been here since 1999/2000... problem was i was mainly / purely an NNTP user... when the new forums got created i kind of lost my original id... may have been just 'shunith' or my full name... also, was probably an old email id i junked in 2005... hence couldn't get my original back...

anyway... had to create this new id in May...

Edit: However... have only recently started revisiting the forums...

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Oct 16, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Oct 17, 2009

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So do you want to explain why it is rude to the OP to direct her to a place that can help her better, save her more nonsense and in the process guide her to a way to ask her question that is more likely to get useful answers? Was it the lack of platitudes such as "Hi Portia"? Do you think the "Good luck" is meant cynical? Is it wrong to point out that the thread is in the wrong place? Or do you seriously want to argue that the thread was going somewhere?

For some reason you seem to see what I did as "extremely rude", and I would like to know why.

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Oct 17, 2009 0
Contributor ,
Oct 17, 2009

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good morning Jochem 

platitudes are a good start, they put folks at ease, they feel as if they are specifically the one being addressed etc.

edited by: greenjumpyone

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Oct 17, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Oct 17, 2009

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Jochem doesn't understand, or see the point of social niceties, or why it matters to appear human. I assume that's part of why he was chosen as host - thick-skinned enough to 'just get in there and shut the buggers up'.

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Oct 17, 2009 0
Explorer ,
Oct 17, 2009

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For some reason you seem to see what I did as "extremely rude", and I would like to know why.

By the very act of "locking the thread" you in effect told Portia to: "Shut-up and go away!".

If you had just left the thread alone two things might have happened: either Portia would have had the chance to come back and say "Thank you"; and the thread might have developed into an interesting discussion in which we all learned something.

That is what the Forums were originally designed for: User to User Help and Discussion.

That is what your over-bearing, and extremely rude, behaviour is destroying; and it is also why nearly all of us are asking for you either to mend your ways or to be dismissed from the position of "Moderator".

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Oct 17, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Oct 17, 2009

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Ann Shelbourne wrote:


That is what the Forums were originally designed for: User to User Help and Discussion.

Excellent point... Discussion. That is the crux... forums are an arena for discussion. They are not a 'take-away' – get your answer and go! JVD's actions are removing the discussion aspect and reducing this place to a Burger King or a MacDonald's.

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Oct 17, 2009 0
Participant ,
Oct 17, 2009

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Adobe has been hit by the economy as we all have. All professionals have been laid off and replaced by new market new bees. It's a money-saving step that has to be taken.

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Contributor ,
Oct 18, 2009

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but you know what Ken?  What better time to rely on the users in the U2U forums to assist with that hard to find free tech support that the old forum had.  Didn't cost them any  more to have the forum the way it was, with all the experts in the various fields giving out free and very sound advice.

but no, let's save money ...

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Oct 18, 2009 0
Explorer ,
Oct 18, 2009

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Adobe has been hit by the economy as we all have. All professionals have been laid off and replaced by new market new bees. It's a money-saving step that has to be taken.

It was yet another BAD decision by Adobe.

The real reason that Adobe got itself into a mess was corporate greed: the desire to swallow -up  and control the entire graphic arts software segment. They paid an exorbitant amount for Macromedia and made no provision for a possible downturn in the economy.

Now they are compounding their errors by infuriating their Customers with abysmal Customer Service and kowtowing to the Macromedia faction by merging the Forums into this decidedly Macromedian standard of format and performance.

They are also infuriating their overseas customers with totally unfair pricing because of ill-advised trading agreements that they have made with foreign distributors.

I know of numerous professional Users in Europe, Australia and South Africa who have not upgraded to CS4 because they are so angry about the prices being charged in their countries.

The previous CEO of Adobe has a great deal for which to answer!

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Oct 18, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Oct 18, 2009

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Ann Shelbourne wrote:

Now they are compounding their errors by infuriating their Customers with abysmal Customer Service and kowtowing to the Macromedia faction by merging the Forums into this decidedly Macromedian standard of format and performance.

The Macromedia Dreamweaver NNTP side worked perfectly well... The 'experts' there  (in the true sense of the term) were perfectly courteous and helpful. Suffered a lot from the ignorance of 'newbies' but never lost their cool ... Unfortunately, with the demise of NNTP, virtually all of them have left these forums .

Can't speak about experiences in the forums for the other products such as Freehand and Fireworks...

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Explorer ,
Oct 18, 2009

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The only possible way to use the Macromedia Forums was probably by NNTP — the browser experience in them was perfectly dreadful and very similar to what we are now experiencing in the Jive format.

I have always preferred Browser access particularly as I frequented the image-rich environment of the Photography and Photoshop Forums.

We also had highly experienced and knowledgeable Forum Hosts in those Forums who knew how to participate in discussions with grace and charm,

Now we have no NNTP (for those that preferred it); an abysmal Browser experience in ALL Forums; and this new breed of "Moderators" who appear to have little knowledge of the Products or Industry Experience, no clue as to how to be a welcoming "Host", no charm and no manners either.

The result is that virtually all of the REAL experts who used to frequent and contribute to these Forums have left.

So Adobe, by their own stubborn stupidity, now have no Customer Service worthy of the name — and no expert help in the Forums either,

Brilliant!!!

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Oct 18, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Oct 18, 2009

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The tragedy is that the clock can't be turned back. 

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Oct 18, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Oct 19, 2009

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shunithD wrote:

I don't need to really explain, but just to put the record straight... actually, may seem new but is not / am not... and not an alias either... have been here since 1999/2000... problem was i was mainly / purely an NNTP user... when the new forums got created i kind of lost my original id... may have been just 'shunith' or my full name... also, was probably an old email id i junked in 2005... hence couldn't get my original back...

anyway... had to create this new id in May...

Edit: However... have only recently started revisiting the forums...

My observation still stands, in that case. Here we have a "new" jiveboard* user (still new to Jiveware if you had <50 posts a few weeks ago!) who has observed the same things the "regulars" here in this jiveboard* have observed, after extensively subjecting ourselves to the pain of the jiveboard* and the software running it.

*I refuse to refer to this place as a true web "forum" since it clearly does not fulfill the requirements expected of functional web forum software as of 2009.

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Oct 19, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Oct 19, 2009

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Ansury wrote:


My observation still stands, in that case. Here we have a "new" jiveboard* user (still new to Jiveware if you had <50 posts a few weeks ago!) who has observed the same things the "regulars" here in this jiveboard* have observed, after extensively subjecting ourselves to the pain of the jiveboard* and the software running it.

*I refuse to refer to this place as a true web "forum" since it clearly does not fulfill the requirements expected of functional web forum software as of 2009.

Well, i agree with you... spent a while just catching up on the topics and mood before i started posting... All i can say, is that i've seen better... but doubt, very much, if i've seen worse. Caveat: Except for some fly-by-nighters where one drifted in by mistake...

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Engaged ,
Oct 20, 2009

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I've been out of the loop for a while, and now just catching up on things, at least with this thread, thanks to Ann bringing me up to speed a little. I only want to say how much I miss the old forums and the years of helpful interactions we shared. Surely we had lots of ups and downs, and I myself sometimes got caught in a whirlwind of emotions at times, but overall there was genuine learning, problem solving, and overall camaraderie taking place. I made progress in my business due to the interaction which took place in the Mac Photoshop, GoLive, InDesign, Illustrator and Photography Forums. In a way I owe a debt of gratitude to so many who used to tolerate my endless trouble-shooting, hardware/software questions and slowness to catch on with photography issues.

I guess I have nothing to say in regard to this particular situation since I was not a part of it, but I did want to add my thoughts just the same.

Linda

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Guru ,
Oct 20, 2009

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Sometimes it is hard to let go of the past when there is nothing to look forward to.

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Engaged ,
Oct 20, 2009

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Plenty to look forward to for me... and thankfully lots of work. But these software forums have been valuable for so many. It would be nice if they could have remained as they were. Apparently we've lost a lot of good people through all these changes.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 20, 2009

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LRK 2 wrote:

Apparently we've lost a lot of good people through all these changes.

Oh I wouldn't say a lot of good people....


... Just 99% of them!       

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Explorer ,
Oct 20, 2009

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LRK 2 wrote:

It would be nice if they could have remained as they were. Apparently we've lost a lot of good people through all these changes.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately the creators are so full of themselves they can't admit the mistake and rectify it.

Nice to see you Ann.

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Guru ,
Oct 21, 2009

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Similar to a family reunion for some happy posters.

Sweet.

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Oct 21, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Oct 21, 2009

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dec9 wrote:

Similar to a family reunion for some happy posters.

Sweet.

more like running into old friends at a funeral dave!

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Oct 21, 2009 0
Guru ,
Oct 21, 2009

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dave milbut wrote:

dec9 wrote:

Similar to a family reunion for some happy posters.

Sweet.

more like running into old friends at a funeral dave!

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Oct 21, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Oct 21, 2009

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I'm surprised 'grumpy grandpa' hasn't deleted everyone at the dinner table by now

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Oct 21, 2009

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It's nice to see some smiles around this place! 

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Oct 21, 2009 0
Engaged ,
Oct 21, 2009

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greenjumpyone wrote:

It's nice to see some smiles around this place! 

Kind of fun to touch base Hopper. I have missed everyone.

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Oct 21, 2009 0
Guru ,
Oct 21, 2009

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Wait til I am done eating please.

Ozzwoman9 wrote:

I'm surprised 'grumpy grandpa' hasn't deleted everyone at the dinner table by now

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Oct 21, 2009 0