Still no supervision in the French and Spanish forums?

[Claudio_González1]

I forgot that threads are extremely short lived in this forum, and the discussion that really began within an unrelated thread, here

Pierre Courtejoie, "Shouldn't these links be removed as soon as possible?" #8, 27 Feb 2005 1:21 pm

has already gone to the Archives, where it is in danger of going to the limbus in the near future.

I still think that this is an important issue, and still wait to see any improvement in those forums showing that the messages by Pierre and myself on the subject have not fallen in a void. Although we both value and thank Neil Keller for his attempts to get some reaction in higher quarters, his attempts have unfortunately been a failure.

It is pathetic to see pages in the forums in Spanish with templates that are written in a mixture of English and a very bad Spanish. It is even more pathetic that JC stopped more than a year ago feeling authorized to introduce any non trivial change to improve this situation. The worst part is however to feel that there is no one listening, or at least willing to admit that there might be problems in those forums.

I feel very disappointed.

[Claudio_González1]

I wanted to check something in the thread where this discussion originated, and when I clicked on the link in my opening message in this topic, I received this (slightly ironic?) message:

>The item ".3bb89335/7" does not exist, it may have been deleted.

And as I don't want the same thing to happen with this thread, here I am bringing it once more to the top of the list.

It would unfortunately seem that DorothyK was right when she wrote

>Until and unless someone is in there with host rights, not much will happen.

However, I think that Pierre has shown in the forums in French, and I in the forums in Spanish, that it is not necessary to grant host rights to anyone who doesn't pass the double screening process in order to polish those forums. I, at least, have no desire to be granted such rights, and I am not even asking for collaboration. All I would need is permission from Adobe Fenwick to continue the process that I was carrying with JC, brutally interrupted about a year and a half ago, to be replaced by absolute inactivity.

I would think that almost everyone posting questions in the forums in Spanish does so because of an insufficient knowledge of the English language. It must therefore be at least disconcerting for them to find pages partially or totally written in English, when it would be so easy to have them all written in proper Spanish.

In a conversation with one of my teachers, shortly after I graduated, he gave me the following bit of advise: "Claudio, never offer to do any job for free". He didn't explain any further, so it has taken me several decades to realize and understand the wisdom in his words ...

[_Guy_Smiley_]

> In a conversation with one of my teachers, shortly after I
> graduated, he gave me the following bit of advise: "Claudio, never
> offer to do any job for free". He didn't explain any further, so
> it has taken me several decades to realize and understand the
> wisdom in his words ...

It's obvious that you have still not figured out what he meant.

[_Nigel_Moore_]

Are soliciting Adobe for payment to translate the forums into Spanish?

If that's the case, this is probably not the best place to do so. I know at least one forum member who questions solicitation/advertising on the forums.

If that's not the case please accept my apologies, but I fail to understand your final paragraph.

[Claudio_González1]

Hello Nigel,

I said that it took me some decades to understand it myself. To put it simply, it means that people in charge of any business running for profit have a marked tendendy to be highly suspicious of people who offer them anything for free. The net result being that, most often than not, they end by ignoring the help been offered. As in this case.

For your information, JC offered to compensate my efforts for improving the forums in Spanish in a non monetary way (by providing me with free copies of some Adobe software), but I have never taken his word for it. Normally I wouldn't have mentioned this in public, but I find your suspicion not only unfounded, but offensive.

[_Nigel_Moore_]

Hello Claudio

>I find your suspicion not only unfounded, but offensive.

As do I your double standards. You often come here reporting would-be offenders who may have, or may not have, touted their guns for hire, as it were. Yet you are not beyond implying that Adobe should pay you to translate the forums.

[Claudio_González1]

Hello Nigel,

>As do I your hypocrisy. You often come here reporting would-be offenders who openly, or not so openly, tout their guns for hire, as it were. Yet you are willing to do the same.

I thought I had been clear in saying that I am not only not asking Adobe for money for services not yet provided, but I have also declined to receive any compensation for services already provided. Perhaps you may find it too difficult to understand that someone can collaborate in improving these forums without expecting anything in return, but that doesn't give you the right to call my a hypocrite.

It's a pity that you rush to draw offensive conclusions about my conduct without making the least effort to understand what I have written in my last two messages. If you want it clearer and shorter: it has never crossed my mind to offer Adobe my paid services as a translator, even less through these forums. It is your privilege to take my word for it or not, and it's mine not to continue answering your attacks if you don't believe me.

[Claudio_González1]

Hello Nigel,

I'm glad that you trimmed down your message #53 while I was writing my answer. However, I don't see anything I should change in my answer because of this, except for acknowledging that now you are not openly calling me a hypocrite.

[_Nigel_Moore_]

>That's why I have concentrated on something I know I can do if there was interest: make the Spanish ones at least decently written and presented.

>I would think that almost everyone posting questions in the forums in Spanish does so because of an insufficient knowledge of the English language. It must therefore be at least disconcerting for them to find pages partially or totally written in English, when it would be so easy to have them all written in proper Spanish.

I don't know about you, but this reads to me as if you're offering to translate English to Spanish for Adobe...

>In a conversation with one of my teachers, shortly after I graduated, he gave me the following bit of advise: "Claudio, never offer to do any job for free". He didn't explain any further, so it has taken me several decades to realize and understand the wisdom in his words...

... and this sounds like you want payment for it. While that is understandable, I will juxtapose this with recent posts from you questioning perfectly innocent posters as if they're touting for business, and less perfectly innocent posters that are obviously doing so.

So, why is it that you feel you can tout for business here and others cannot?

I edited my post to be diplomatic, but that doesn't mean that the thought doesn't linger.

[_Nigel_Moore_]

All I'm saying, Claudio, is that if you and Adobe/JC/who-the-hell-ever reach a mutually beneficial agreement whereby they pay you in whatever way for translating English into Spanish, then good luck to both parties.

But if you're going to openly or implicitly tout for business on this forum, you really shouldn't then become holier-than-thou when others do similar.

[_Guy_Smiley_]

It is pointless to get into it with "Grandma" Gonzalez. He is an
officious intermeddler of the highest caliber, and indefatigable as
well.

[Guest]

Nigel,

You are entirely mis-reading what Claudio said. His whole point is that
by offering his sevices FOC, no notice is apparently being taken of his
offer. There was no "touting for business" whatsoever, quite the reverse
in fact.

I guess it must be true about Americans and irony...

[Claudio_González1]

Hello, Nigel.

You have chosen not to take my word for my intentions, and not to take the trouble to understand my position by reading a little more of what I and others have written in this thread. I could therefore choose to remain silent, as I said. However, by interpreting things as you wish and publishing your views in this topic, you are endangering what Pierre, myself and others have been trying to do for the forums in French and Spanish, so I will try just once more.

You now quote two sentences from two different messages of mine to conclude

> ... this reads to me as if you're offering to translate English to Spanish for Adobe...

which of course I have been offering for nearly two years. However, as you conveniently omit the sentence immediately preceding the second one you quote,

>All I would need is permission from Adobe Fenwick to continue the process that I was carrying with JC, brutally interrupted about a year and a half ago, to be replaced by absolute inactivity.

you absolutely misunderstand my comment about what my teacher told me decades ago. My comment was only a perhaps too obscure way of saying that the fate of my offer would probably have been different if I had charged for it instead.

I did explain this to you in another message, but you don't give any sign of having read my explanation. What I am offering is to continue doing for nothing what I had been doing for nothing for some months with the help of JC. I understand that Pierre had been doing something similar, also for nothing, in the forums in French. For some (to me) obscure reason, you seem to be more interested in digging in what I have written looking for evidence to prove your are right and I am wrong than in trying to understand this simple fact.

> All I'm saying, Claudio, is that if you and Adobe/JC/who-the-hell-ever reach a mutually beneficial agreement whereby they pay you in whatever way for translating English into Spanish, then good luck to both parties.

Now this seems to me like going a bit too far. With this remark you are not only insulting me, but also JC. Suggesting that he may even consider an obscure agreement with me to obtain some sort of benefit can only be attributed to not knowing who he is and what is his role in these forums. If this is the kind of behaviour you have come to expect in people surrounding you, it is obvious we live in completely different worlds, and nothing I can say will ever convince you that there are different worlds where people behave differently. Which is a pity.

[_Nigel_Moore_]

>He is an officious intermeddler of the highest caliber

Indeed.

[Claudio_González1]

Funny. I would have thought it's not me who is butting in a topic I don't understand and using personal disqualifications as arguments. Users of the forums in French and Spanish should thank you both for your valuable contributions.

[PECourtejoie]

Ouch!
Lots of misunderstanding going on, or too much reading between the lines...

Without speaking for him, from what I understood in this long discussion here, Claudio does not ask to be paid, nor does he want to be an host. He just would like to have, like me, whoever is in charge of the spanish- and french-speaking forums (the german side of the house seems to be OK), really take care of them, and might even have some suggestions, and would provide some help to make it better...

[Claudio_González1]

Thank you very much, Len. An independent, impartial judge of the situation was badly needed. This had been for too long "a dialogue between deaf people", as we say in Spanish. Not good for the forums, not good for the discussion, and not good for the people involved, so I apologize for my part of the blame.

Than you Pierre as well, although you wouldn't qualify as independent in this thread.

[PECourtejoie]

Indeed, but I hope that it will be brought in focus, and that the recents "events" will make some positive noise for our (hopeless?) cause...

[Claudio_González1]

Yes, let's hope we can now go back on topic, and that our cause is not completely hopeless ...

[_Nigel_Moore_]

Len

>I guess it must be true about Americans and irony...

Possibly so, but I don't see how that's at all relevant. I'm English, and I do understand irony.

That said, although I accept that Claudio's intentions may be honourable, his words are indeed open to (mis)interpretation.

Perhaps he would like to reflect upon that before he next comes here reporting others for perceived transgressions.

"I wonder..."

[PECourtejoie]

Claudio, I tried to contact the adress given on the Dutch pages, but halas, it is customer service, and they have NO idea of who could be in charge. I really wonder how to contact those people.

[Claudio_González1]

Pierre, it would seem that information is simply not available for mere mortals. An extremely well kept secret, in any case.

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

Claudio,

Even a top Adobe engineer like Chris Cox despaired publicly that he couldn't find out who was in charge of the main Adobe downloads server, let alone the Spanish forums.

[Claudio_González1]

Well, Ramón, that's just further evidence showing that Adobe does not have the slightest intention to make that kind of information available even to its own personnel. Although I fail to understand such secrecy, I have come to accept it and have been talking about Adobe Fenwick since you mentioned the film. Pity that we are only less that a handful of mice that are trying unsuccessfully to roar in this case.

[PECourtejoie]

Maybe should we ask John Nack to make a call in his blog ;)

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

I believe that the example with Chris Cox points to a complete lack of organization in the management of all Adobe servers rather than "secrecy". I don't think they want to keep it a secret, they just don't know.