Thanks from Q

Contributor ,
Dec 09, 2009

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I am now allowed to post as my ban has been lifted.  To those that took a stand in my favor I am truly grateful.  Your support and kind words I will always treasure.  I must also acknowledge my appreciation to two of the people that oversee these forums.  I believe it is John and Rick.  It appears that these individuals decided to review my ban and found it not warranted.  I sincerely thank both of you.  I

I do, however, want it known that I am not celebrating a PARDON, as that would indicate that I have been guilty of some offense but was forgiven.  I still maintain that I did nothing wrong and that I was unfairly banned without any warning.

Although I could not log-in I did read the posts every day.  I grew angry over some of the comments made by a VERY FEW moderators.  Such as; "People are only banned after repeatedly not obeying the rules of the forums."  Or that "People receive warnings before being banned."  And my favorite,  "Send an e-mail, apologize and ask to have ban lifted."  Paraphrasing, not exact quotes.

In my case I made ONE post critical of the forums and how they are being moderated.

Please note I was not rude, did not make fun of anyone and I most certainly did not use profanity.  I received an e-mail informing me that I had been banned.  It did not inform me what I did to bring this about.  It did say to e-mail back with any questions.  I did so twice and never got a reply.  My e-mail did not contain an apology but it was respectful.

After my experience, I can only conclude that all bans should be voided.  Start over and use some common sense.  Moderators should moderate, not dictate.  Having the attitude that one is always right and never wrong leads nowhere and certainly doesn't gain respect.  I'm aware of only one moderator that fits this description.  The rest, I believe, are doing the best they can with what they have.

Q

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Thanks from Q

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Dec 09, 2009

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I am now allowed to post as my ban has been lifted.  To those that took a stand in my favor I am truly grateful.  Your support and kind words I will always treasure.  I must also acknowledge my appreciation to two of the people that oversee these forums.  I believe it is John and Rick.  It appears that these individuals decided to review my ban and found it not warranted.  I sincerely thank both of you.  I

I do, however, want it known that I am not celebrating a PARDON, as that would indicate that I have been guilty of some offense but was forgiven.  I still maintain that I did nothing wrong and that I was unfairly banned without any warning.

Although I could not log-in I did read the posts every day.  I grew angry over some of the comments made by a VERY FEW moderators.  Such as; "People are only banned after repeatedly not obeying the rules of the forums."  Or that "People receive warnings before being banned."  And my favorite,  "Send an e-mail, apologize and ask to have ban lifted."  Paraphrasing, not exact quotes.

In my case I made ONE post critical of the forums and how they are being moderated.

Please note I was not rude, did not make fun of anyone and I most certainly did not use profanity.  I received an e-mail informing me that I had been banned.  It did not inform me what I did to bring this about.  It did say to e-mail back with any questions.  I did so twice and never got a reply.  My e-mail did not contain an apology but it was respectful.

After my experience, I can only conclude that all bans should be voided.  Start over and use some common sense.  Moderators should moderate, not dictate.  Having the attitude that one is always right and never wrong leads nowhere and certainly doesn't gain respect.  I'm aware of only one moderator that fits this description.  The rest, I believe, are doing the best they can with what they have.

Q

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Dec 09, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 09, 2009

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Hi Q

For what it's worth, I had never heard of your forum identity until Linda (LRK 2) posted to ask why you had been banned. I'm pleased to have helped in some small way but by no means am I directly responsible other than asking around to see if Adobe would take a second look.

Linda deserves all the credit for the polite and mature way she handled presenting your case here.

It seems most unfortunate that you apparently were simply banned without warning. I still can't help but to wonder if your ban was some odd mistake. Perhaps a mistyped letter or whatever.

At any rate, nice to meet you! Rick

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Contributor ,
Dec 10, 2009

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and Linda, I, too, thank you for getting the actions done that led to the removal of the ban for Q.

Rick, for the record, others had asked why the bans, why no explanations, etc, including the ban on Q.  Those questions fell on deaf ears.  I am very happy that Linda was able to break the silence.

I agree with Q, the bans should be lifted and clearly thought out before banning anyone from the forums.

Adobe MUST realize that these folks are the people who purchase their software and keep their company in business.  To ban, without properly informing and without sound judgement only harms the reputation of the company.  I am sure that is not what the company shareholders want to see  happen.

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Dec 10, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 10, 2009

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Hi Hopper

Well, for one thing I had never seen a post from Q here in the comments forum. Because I had no foundation of possible bad behavior to consider, I decided to ask Adobe about it. Fortunately they listened.

Note that I haven't the faintest clue as to why Q was banned or whom it was that called for it. After all, I'm just a helper and an active forum participant. Contrary to what some may believe, just because I have moderation capabiities and exercise them in my own tiny spectrum of the Adobe forums rainbow, we don't know much about what goes on behind the scenes.

Some of the others that were banned were obvious to me why they were banned.

Now before anyone reads that and starts coming back saying things like "She has been here for 10 years and has gobs of valuable contributions!" or "He has been here for 12 years and has a stellar record for solving tricksy problems!" I need to say that my view is severely myopic and limited only to the activity I witnessed in this forum alone. So sure, for some of those that were banned, based on the behavior I saw here, I'd be pretty reluctant to approach Adobe and ask them to give them a second look.

Naturally I cannot speak for everyone, but I personally attept to conduct myself here nearly the same as I do in the fora where I participate and help with moderation. Given that, I presume (possibly incorrectly) that others do the same. So even if the folks are (or were) helpful overall, they really aren't doing Adobe any favors if their behavior toward others is reflective of their behavior here.

Sincerely... Rick

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Dec 10, 2009 0
Contributor ,
Dec 10, 2009

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Rick,

basicially, it's button pushing.  That's what happened in this forum for many of us.  Push the button enough and people react in a way that might be considered uncharacteristic, or at least like that last nerve that gets stomped on and causes the negative reaction.

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Dec 10, 2009 0
Explorer ,
Dec 10, 2009

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Rick,

I would also like to thank you for taking up Q's cause with the powers that BE at Adobe.

I second what Hopper has said.  Prior to Linda's request, others had asked why the mass bannings and some hostility errupted.  In general, it was made known that fueling the flames by asking questions such as that could lead the questioner to be banned as well.

That doesn't sit right with a lot of Adobe's customers.

Anyway, there are still others who have been banned without warning or explanation or any idea if there is some sort of time limit or not.

I don't know her, but I recall Oz Woman asking why she was singled out and accused  of something or other.  I am not aware if she ever received the information she asked for.  Unless that topic has been opened in another thread, if I remember correctly, the topic went silent.

Patrice

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Dec 10, 2009 0
Contributor ,
Dec 11, 2009

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I don't intend to beat a dead horse here, as I honestly wouldn't even beat a live horse, but I feel compelled to add a comment about the bans.  I'm going to use Ramón as an example.  And if he should read this I ask that he not take offense as I mean no bad intent.

Truthfully, I find him to be just a bit arrogant at times.  He and I shared an unfriendly exchange on two occasions.  He pretty much indicated that I'm a fool.  While I felt that I had a valid point, he refused to understand my thinking.  He even refused to accept the fact that I was entitled to my opinion. The end result is that, personally, I don't care very much for him.  I don't hate him. I just don't like him due to what I consider a less than pleasant attitude.

That being said, I do respect him for his vast knowledge in Adobe products and in other areas.  He contributed significantly to the forums.  If he is banned, we all suffer to some degree.  So what has his ban actually accomplished?  In my view, nothing good.

While I believe in Peace, Love and Brotherhood, the truth is that we often come across people that we don't particularly care for. That's the real world.  Accept it and move on.  And move forward with forums that are actually informative and supported by knowledgeable people.  That's my message to the people that control this forum.

In turn, my message to those of us that post here is that the Jive software is what it is.  It's the tool provided us to communicate.  It's not a very good tool, but it's not completely worthless.  Let's make the best possible use we can of it.

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Dec 11, 2009 0
Guru ,
Dec 11, 2009

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The topic went very silent because the person who accused Oz never responded back. To top it off Oz gets banned for said action. Fair? No.

To accuse someone then run off and hide as if nothing ever happened  is just plain wrong. This would never happen in the real world as you can take people to court and get answers there.

Here in the forums: just go silent, the accused gets banned with no way to defend themselves and everything is now peachy fuzzy kittens. Not so easy as people never forget.

For some integrity and trust mean nothing as long as they get their way. Burying the head in the sand does not make the problem go away either.

Enough said.

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Dec 11, 2009 0
New Here ,
Dec 11, 2009

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That's my message to the people that control this forum.

I think your post is mature, well-reasoned and expressed, and shows you have a lot of class. One can only wish (likely in vain) that it shall be heeded.

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Dec 11, 2009 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Dec 11, 2009

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Q, I agree with you: nothing valuable is gained by permanently banning someone from these forums. Specially when, as Paz reminds us, some were banned "without warning or explanation or any idea if there is some sort of time limit or not." Or, as dec9 informs us, based on unsustained accusations.


I would like to take again the case of Ramón, which you mention. I happen to have had a somewhat closer contact with him that many of you, because he was also a very active participant in the forums in Spanish. Ramón has always been a most quick tempered person, ready to react very strongly to anything he doesn't like. As Q, I also had at least a couple of not exactly friendly exchanges with him and, although he charged almost like a bull and with every heavy argument he could think of, we never ended as enemies.


To my surprise, I found with time that, once you scratched under his surface, there is a very good and generous man down there. Also, as Q says, he is really talented and most knowledgeable in many fields. I remember some exchanges of his with other participants in the forums in Spanish where he gave full first class lectures on the theory of colour and its relationships with what we see on our screens, what we get in our printers, and what comes out of the presses. The very many pages he wrote in answer to successive and deeper questions  -that I was going to collect but never did- are  a testimony of how unselfish he is when coming to share his enormous baggage of knowledge with others.


On the other hand, it is true that, more often than not, he got carried by his temper and became highly offensive in his replies. I am sure he must have received many well earned warnings for this, but no warnings could ever possibly have made him act, or react, differently. It is extremely difficult for an old man to change his life long habits, and I am quite certain that he had/has no intention whatsoever of even trying.


So, coming back to topic, what was gained by his permanent banning from these forums? Perhaps a sense of relief, or even of victory, for some, most, or all of those who had got into his black list. Perhaps a sense of a cleaner atmosphere for those who didn't like his violations of the rules. Perhaps several other similar benefits, which may all be fully respectable. Let's not, however, lose our perspective of the facts. If Ramón, and all the others who have been banned from the forums, are not coming here, is simply because because they do not wish to do so. We have just been wisely reminded in another thread of "a person that is banned time and again and logs right back in with a new identity.". Which, in my opinion, is a most blatant example of how useless it is banning anyone who doesn't want to accept the banning.


And what did we lose? The sapience of a man always willing to share all his accumulated knowledge, without even expecting a "thank you" in exchange for all the time he generoulsy devoted to answering difficult questions in these forums. Will he be esily and quickly replaced by the new blood that is always coming in, as we have been repeatedly told? I very much doubt it, for it takes a full life to acquire such enormous wealth of knowledge as Ramón and the others have.


Is it worth banning people permanently, then? In my opinion, most definitely no. Will my opinion have any influence? Most probably, no, but I couldn't keep silent for any longer.

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Dec 11, 2009 0
Explorer ,
Dec 11, 2009

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Well said, Claudio.

Adobe's customer base will be the first to suffer the loss of the knowlegeable people who have fled these forums.

Who knows?  Over time, Adobe itself may regret driving their customers away.

As for Oz Woman,

I don't know if she was banned or not.  All I know is that she was anonymously accused.

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Dec 11, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 11, 2009

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Hi Paz

While I'm aware that the fora where I participate are but a small segment of the Adobe spectrum, I'd like to point out that we suffered no discernable casualties of knowledgeable folks walking away as a result of the forum changeover. Our communities are just as strong as they were prior to Jive. So it's not really fair to claim or suggest that things are falling apart for Adobe as a whole, based totally on the fora where you participate.

Cheers... Rick

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Dec 11, 2009 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Dec 11, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

Hi Paz

While I'm aware that the fora where I participate are but a small segment of the Adobe spectrum, I'd like to point out that we suffered no discernable casualties of knowledgeable folks walking away as a result of the forum changeover. Our communities are just as strong as they were prior to Jive. So it's not really fair to claim or suggest that things are falling apart for Adobe as a whole, based totally on the fora where you participate.

Cheers... Rick

I would think it is equally or even more not fair to claim the opposite based on but a small segment of the Adobe spectrum...

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Dec 11, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 11, 2009

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Ahh, but my claim was prefaced by the fact I acknowledged my view was but a tiny fraction of the larger whole. I never said things are well and peachy all over. Only that what I see isn't representative of what some would claim is the end of Adobe.

So one shouldn't say things are horrible and Adobe will collapse without the expertise, nor should others say that things are terrific and we haven't lost any expertise. Both views are correct if all you are viewing is the tiny segment. At the same time, both views are grossly incorrect if they believe the whole of the forums is as each percieves the smaller slice of the pie.

In writing this it strikes me as seeming eerily similar to the economy. Some areas of the world are in an awful shambles while others are just as affluent as they always have been.

Rick

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Dec 11, 2009 0
Enthusiast ,
Dec 11, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

While I'm aware that the fora where I participate are but a small segment of the Adobe spectrum, I'd like to point out that we suffered no discernable casualties of knowledgeable folks walking away as a result of the forum changeover.

Perhaps in the forum, or forums, you frequent. But Dreamweaver has taken a huge beating... all the truly good ones have left... from the old lot, i think just Murray and David Powers are left. Photoshop has taken an equal beating. Regarding the others i cannot say. New contributors may be coming along... but they can in no way make up for the loss of the old.

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Dec 11, 2009 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Dec 12, 2009

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Please don't try to hide the fact that the forums have lost a non negligible number of very valuable contributors since the implementation of this new versions, not a few of them through being banned permanently and, in some cases, without even knowing why. And that permanent banning is not a good solution, that can -and is- bypassed easily if so wished by the affected person, although almost none of the banned ones have ever come back.

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Dec 12, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Dec 12, 2009

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shunithD wrote:


Dreamweaver has taken a huge beating... all the truly good ones have left... from the old lot, i think just Murray and David Powers are left. Photoshop has taken an equal beating. Regarding the others i cannot say. New contributors may be coming along... but they can in no way make up for the loss of the old.

I can't comment about the Photoshop forum, but I disagree about the Dreamweaver forum taking a "huge beating". Several knowledgeable contributors did leave as a result of the forum no longer supporting NNTP (newsreader) access. I regret their loss, but I can think of at least two excellent contributors (Nancy O and pziecina) who have emerged in recent months. Communities change as people come and go. Although I intend to stick around for the foreseeable future, I doubt if Murray and I will be there forever.

It should be stressed that the disappearances in the Dreamweaver forum have nothing to do with being banned. Those who left did so because they didn't like the Jive software. Most of them now participate in a couple of much smaller newsgroups on NNTP.

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Dec 12, 2009 0
shunithD LATEST
Enthusiast ,
Dec 12, 2009

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David_Powers wrote:

It should be stressed that the disappearances in the Dreamweaver forum have nothing to do with being banned. Those who left did so because they didn't like the Jive software. Most of them now participate in a couple of much smaller newsgroups on NNTP.

No one said it had anything to do with being banned... it was to do with the forum changeover. That's what the OP said and that's what i quoted.

David_Powers wrote:


...but I disagree about the Dreamweaver forum taking a "huge beating". Several knowledgeable contributors did leave as a result of the forum no longer supporting NNTP (newsreader) access. I regret their loss, but I can think of at least two excellent contributors (Nancy O and pziecina) who have emerged in recent months. Communities change as people come and go. Although I intend to stick around for the foreseeable future, I doubt if Murray and I will be there forever.

That's what i, more or less, said - but in fewer words. The point is, the ones who have left are irreplaceable. How much richer the forum would have been if they were still there?

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Dec 12, 2009 0