The say of the natives

Most Valuable Participant ,
Mar 12, 2009 Mar 12, 2009

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Quite a few times it has been claimed in these threads that the posters are few, do not represent the average, and so on.

Seemingly this leads the claimers to the conclusion that the strong support of the present forum appearance and the consequent strong objections to the complete change anticipated, and at least partially confirmed, does not represent a general opinion among forum members.

However, I am convinced that the objections to the anticipated change are widespread among the product forum members, especially among frequent posters, and especially among those contributing answers.

As far as I can see in the product forums that I contribue to or follow, at least 3/4 of the questions are answered by forum regulars such as myself that never, or very rarely, ask questions themselves. This means that we may be few in number, but not in terms of contributing to the forums.

Actually, only few regulars in the product forums post in the general forums at all, except perhaps on very rare occasions, but all the reactions I saw after the nightmare of the aborted forum merge were clear: Everyone resented not only the serious issues, but also the very format, which was not that far from what we are anticipating here, based upon the feedback so far.

All other product forum members post (questions) much less frequently, but stil, all the reactions I saw after aborted forum merge were the same.

Consequently, as far as I can see, what is posted here in these threads is the say of the natives.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Mar 12, 2009 Mar 12, 2009

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That "say of the natives" is all very well... but it is based on incomplete or non-existent information

Just as soon as the preview forum link is posted, I will look and comment about what I like or don't like

Until then, this "say of the natives" is so much drum beating or smoke signals

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Explorer ,
Mar 12, 2009 Mar 12, 2009

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Once a Preview forum link is posted, you can be absolutely certain that it is set in concrete.

What Jacob, and the many other people who regularly answer questions on these Forums as he does, is trying to make clear to John C and his team is that if the finished format resembles the proposed layout (that John C posted several weeks ago), it will be unacceptable to "The Natives".

If you want Forums filled with unanswered questions, ignoring the requirements of "The Natives" is a sure-fire way to guarantee that that is exactly what you are going to get!

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Advisor ,
Mar 12, 2009 Mar 12, 2009

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It would be worse to have forums with No questions. The large majority of forum users are question askers. Its true a small number of regulars answer most of the questions, but that shouldn't allow the minority to have more input than the majority.

For the large majority of users, the adobe forums appear old and outdated. Though I too appreciate the efficiency of the current layout, I'm in favor of moving forward with something new.

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Explorer ,
Mar 12, 2009 Mar 12, 2009

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And you think that posted questions that never receive a reply are going to make for happy customers or engender a reputable Corporate Profile?

Or is your object just to have a kiddies playground where you can post Avatars and click buttons mindlessly?

Or are you intending to be the one guy left to field ALL of the questions on ALL of the Forums when all of "the Regulars" have left?

I don't see the point of pandering to the lowest common denominator in the hope that sinking to the level of the least educated will generate more traffic in the Forums because once that Traffic find itself in a one-way street (and a dead-end at that!) because there is no-one there to answer questions or offer help anymore that traffic will dry-up.

One thing to keep in mind: do NOT discount the considerable amount of Adobe software that is sold solely because of the unbiassed recommendations of "the Natives" who selflessly man the pumps in these Forums day after day.

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Guide ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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Just take a look at the Adobe store. It has all kinds of eye candy and it is as useless as the Pope's genitalia.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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I may be old and opinionated, but all the new fangled forums that we keep being referred to are pretty and that is it in my opinion. They may have better search functions, but the readability is poor. There is just too much waste on the screen to scan through and get a quick view of what is there. I often want to browse, but do not have time to read it all (nor do I want to).

I did find the NNTP option to be interesting and I might actually find that I like it, but that is to be gone with the new forums (based on comments from MacroMedia users who seem to prefer the NNTP form to the actual forum structure that many have said is poor).

Thus, are the majority looking for fluff - are they really trying to retrieve any kind of information or just enjoy pretty pages? It is just like the folks that insist on putting graphics and such in their e-mail and that I filter out - no information content. That means that for ease of information flow, simple is often the most efficient. Sometimes a picture is a valued way to pass information and enabling some added features light pictures (without having to find web storage) would be nice.

Said my bit for a while. Have a good weekend folks!

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New Here ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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I look at it as somewhat of living in a tourist town in some ways, where we cater to the visitors.

Not that that is the main reason from the tech side... the main reason is to be able to combine the two databases from two very different forums into one stable forum. Plus they must have the capacity to efficiently handle the volume of traffic we create.

The ongoing criteria, once those are met, is to manage the software in a way that can be upgraded as needed over time.

Back to the first point, there is not a company that produces forum software just for techs. And it's not just techs that come to the Adobe forums. In fact, I would suspect that it's largely people that are not net or tech savvy that are the ones that end up coming here.

Yes, we need software that is easy for the worker bee's to deal with, but we also need software that people who have never been here before, and who are likely upset and frustrated by whatever brought them here, can effectively find their way about in. From their perspective, I can not say that this software is easy to work with.

This software was designed for us, with us waving the baton, and John doing our bidding. Unfortunately, over the long haul, that worked against us... the software was so customized that when the company did upgrades to the software, they were not able to include us along with their other customers. They are not willing to do that again.

So, the net is, we have to trust John and his team to have picked the very best software available on the market today that will meet our needs. We don't have to like it, but we do have to work with it. Or not. Our choice. All of us can be replaced.

People that 'work' in the forums, even as volunteers, do so out of the pride of helping others as much as anything else. People enjoy doing it, and they will continue enjoying doing it... even if they grumble about the software they end up doing it in.

I'm thinkin' that'll turn out to be the bottom line after all the dust has settled.

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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In my opinion,

I find it hard to believe they can't make web crossing work.

>Your site may start with a modest membership. But it is reassuring to know that as your site grows in size, WebCrossing Core grows with you to support even millions of members without speed or service degradation. That is why WebCrossing servers have always been the choice of large companies, universities and organizations with large membership and extraordinary server load requirements.

>Setting up mirrored and distributed servers is easy, via the WebCrossing Core Web-based Control Panel. You can connect WebCrossing Core servers in any mirrored or distributed configuration needed, for hardware redundancy, load balancing and almost unlimited scaling. Messages propagate throughout mirrored servers in milliseconds.

http://webcrossing.com/Home/scaling.htm

i'm fairly sure this is a business only decision, as are all things adobe these days. the customer seems to have moved way down when comparing against the bottom line. in stead of say 60/40 customer focused, it looks from here that it's now more like 30/70 or worse. you know what? when your customers are happy, you can actually MAKE money! the jive sw is a best "bang" for the buck decision. hope they're not shooting themselves in the foot while banging away, again.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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I've always thought that the WebX forum could have been made to work. However, when a decision has already been made to drop something, it's the easiest thing in the world to think up a few reasons to justify the decision in retrospect.

As Dave says, it's just another symptom of the top-heavy corporate machine losing touch with the customer.

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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other industries are starting to realize that the customer WILL always come first, not SHOULD, but WILL. because if they're not your customer, someone else will gladly fill the need, then they'll be SEPs (Someone Else's Problems).

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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"A customer is the most important visitor on our premises.
He is not dependent on us.
We are dependent on him.
He is not an interruption in our work - he is the purpose of it.
We are not doing him a favour by serving him.
He is doing us a favour by giving us the opportunity to serve him."

Ghandi

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New Here ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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The last failed test was Web Crossing. Wanna try that one again?

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Explorer ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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>The last failed test was Web Crossing. Wanna try that one again?

The last failure was most likely because you rolled it out prematurely without sufficient testing and because you tried to incorporate all the junk that clutters the MM Forums into it!

One other thing Dorothy:

How often do YOU provide Adobe Application-related technical help to Forum Users anyway?

And do you actually USE Adobe Applications every day for your profession and which ones apart from Acrobat Reader?

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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>The last failed test was Web Crossing. Wanna try that one again?

done correctly? yes. thanks for asking.

>The last failure was most likely because you rolled it out prematurely without sufficient testing

I don't think so, i'm sure john did the best he could with what he had, it likely failed because it wasn't scaled correctly and adobe cheaped out on the hardware and/or support to help them scale and configure it.

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New Here ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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>I don't think so, i'm sure john did the best he could with what he had, it likely failed because it wasn't scaled correctly and adobe cheaped out on the hardware and/or support to help them scale and configure it.

That's typical. Most companies only prived forums get the customers out of their hair. They are just interested in selling a product.

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Advisor ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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> And you think that posted questions that never receive a reply are going to make for happy customers or engender a reputable Corporate Profile?

Though you may be helpful in whatever forum you have expertise; do not overestimate your uniqueness. There are likely hundreds of you willing to step in if needed. The world's cemetary's are full of people who thought they could never be replaced. If you are threatening to not answer questions because of the format of the forum, that is your decision, but i doubt the kind of threat adobe would respond to.

> Or is your object just to have a kiddies playground where you can post Avatars and click buttons mindlessly?

I suppose you are suggesting that people who prefer a different format are childish? Its more likely people who judge others who are childish. Because you know an answer about some adobe product does not make you smarter than the person asking the question. It simply means you know one small product better than they do, and like to hang out at forums.

> Or are you intending to be the one guy left to field ALL of the questions on ALL of the Forums when all of "the Regulars" have left?

Hardly. Its clear to most that your attitude does not represent the masses.

> I don't see the point of pandering to the lowest common denominator in the hope that sinking to the level of the least educated will generate more traffic in the Forums because once that Traffic find itself in a one-way street (and a dead-end at that!) because there is no-one there to answer questions or offer help anymore that traffic will dry-up.

Again; you assume that someone asking a question is a "lower common denominator". Scary attitude.

> One thing to keep in mind: do NOT discount the considerable amount of Adobe software that is sold solely because of the unbiassed recommendations of "the Natives" who selflessly man the pumps in these Forums day after day.

I would suspect that is exactly why the forums are being updated to something more fitting to the 21st century.

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Explorer ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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I wonder if Adobe appreciates just HOW much software is sold as a direct result of advice and help that is given in these Forums?

I know for a fact that a number of people bought InDesign solely because of my enthusiasm for it when it was first announced.
(I had been one of the lucky ones who had been able to use a Pre-release "Evaluation" version of InDesign 1.0.)

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New Here ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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>The last failure was most likely because you rolled it out prematurely without sufficient testing and because you tried to incorporate all the junk that clutters the MM Forums into it!

"I" did not have a thing to do with the timing, Ann, I was on the side of people that were saying it's not ready, as was John and many others. Do not mistake me as being Adobe or an Adobe employee. I am a volunteer in the forums as are most of the people that are here regularly. "I" also did not try to incorporate anything in the forums, then or now. John tried, and failed, to work with his team and Web Crossing to pare the WebX software to what we volunteers what it to be. That effort crashed big time.

>One other thing Dorothy:

>How often do YOU provide Adobe Application-related technical help to Forum Users anyway?

>And do you actually USE Adobe Applications every day for your profession and which ones apart from Acrobat Reader?

As to my participation, if it's really any of your business, or a factor to be considered in my qualification to be in this space, I do not, and never have claimed expertize in any Adobe programs, other then the forums. I have been hired out of these forums to manage forums in other communities, and that is the work I've done most of these years.

I use a lot of Adobe software on a regular basis, but not to a level that I'm willing to say expert. But I've known the forum software pretty much inside out, to the point, for awhile, of having had my own paid hosted account with Web Crossing. I also interact in a number of communities about online communications. So, mostly, as it regards Adobe software, I mostly read in product forums, preferring to learn from others experience, and I do generally find the answers to my questions without having to post.

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Explorer ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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>I would suspect that is exactly why the forums are being updated to something more fitting to the 21st century.

You mean, of course, "more fitting" for an uneducated, hobbyist, sophomoric, virtually illiterate and "Attention Deficit Syndromic" section of the public?

I doubt if you are considering the actual demographics of Adobe's Customer base (meaning those that actually PURCHASE software)?

[Free-booters who pass through these forums seeking free help with their pirated software should be beneath consideration anyway.]

Incidentally Curt, in which Forums do you actually CONTRIBUTE any Help?
[Clicking on your name doesn't indicate that you do so.]

If in fact you are a Seeker of help (rather than a Provider of same), you should perhaps be a little concerned that the Forums are designed so that the people who provide your crutches have an environment that makes it both possible and desirable for them to do so!

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Enthusiast ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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Ann Shelbourne:

Do you have even the slightest idea just how arrogant you sound? Come down off your high horse and mingle with the Unwashed and Ignorant Masses. You might find it enlightening.

And one of my favorites: "uneducated, hobbyist, sophomoric, virtually illiterate and "Attention Deficit Syndromic" section of the public.

And readers are to take YOU seriously?

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Advisor ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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> You mean, of course, "more fitting" for an uneducated, hobbyist, sophomoric, virtually illiterate and "Attention Deficit Syndromic" section of the public?

No. I dont belittle or stereotype someone just because they ask a question. Asking questions is a sign of intelligence, not the inverse as you suggest.

> I doubt if you are considering the actual demographics of Adobe's Customer base (meaning those that actually PURCHASE software)?

You have a pretty low opinion of people. I dont.

> [Free-booters who pass through these forums seeking free help with their pirated software should be beneath consideration anyway.]

I agree

> Incidentally Curt, in which Forums do you actually CONTRIBUTE any Help? [Clicking on your name doesn't indicate that you do so.]

You seem to judge people based on if they ask questions (the majority) or answer questions; the minority). I am a long time regular in the video products since 2002 Ive been one of the main contributors there and am now considered an "oldie".

> If in fact you are a Seeker of help (rather than a Provider of same), you should perhaps be a little concerned that the Forums are designed so that the people who provide your crutches have an environment that makes it both possible and desirable for them to do so!

Of course I am. But I have seen nothing in the previews announced that alarms me. I will be equally if not better equipped to answer questions in the new format than the old. But then; we are making these statements without even experiencing the new format aren't we?

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Explorer ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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>Come down off your high horse and mingle with the Unwashed and Ignorant Masses.

Why on earth should I WANT to?

:)

But why are YOU so anxious to drag the Adobe Forums down to the level of the "Unwashed and Ignorant Masses" (YOUR phrase!)?

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Advocate ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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>As to my participation, if it's really any of your business, or a factor to be considered in my qualification to be in this space, I do not, and never have claimed expertize in any Adobe programs, other then the forums.

Well, yes, it is relevant. It wouldn't be, if you didn't take it upon yourself to tell people how to behave - considerable respect needs to be earned before venturing there, a host badge doesn't cut it. No-one *sees* you doing anything useful apart from sweeping up the odd bit of spam. On technical forum issues you mainly say it's all beyond your understanding and we should just trust John (as it happens, I do, to do everything he can to bring about a successful outcome).

No harm in your contributing as a user, of course, but your little sermons are just irritating.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Mar 13, 2009 Mar 13, 2009

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Sigh... now we are being told that only those who post product help have an equal voice

Curt is, as he said, a very long time helper in the Premiere forum... and he even has a web site dedicate to providing ongoing Premiere help and tutorials

But, since Ann evidently doesn't go to Premiere, anything Curt says doesn't count

So... Ann... where is the web site you've created to help users?

If you don't have one, I would say you do not have an equal voice with Curt

I am REALLY looking forward to the preview forum... this yelling about what MIGHT be coming got old and tired a long time ago

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