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Why are we still moving threads?

Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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The thread "New to Adobe Flex" which was posted here is now in the Flex forum.  Wouldn't it have been less confusing to the OP if it was just left here with a note saying to post in the other forum?  Who knows if they'll see their answers now..  if the OP had asked for it to be moved that's fine but is moving a thread and leaving no indication it was here such a good idea?

We all know the reason... the high-handed, i know what's best attitude. There was a wrong post here by some poor dude, yesterday or the day before, with a question on Premiere. i replied pointing him to the right forum... poof! the entire thread was shifted...

The deterioration of these forums with the introduction of Jive is matched only by the deterioration of the quality of moderation...

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Why are we still moving threads?

Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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The thread "New to Adobe Flex" which was posted here is now in the Flex forum.  Wouldn't it have been less confusing to the OP if it was just left here with a note saying to post in the other forum?  Who knows if they'll see their answers now..  if the OP had asked for it to be moved that's fine but is moving a thread and leaving no indication it was here such a good idea?

We all know the reason... the high-handed, i know what's best attitude. There was a wrong post here by some poor dude, yesterday or the day before, with a question on Premiere. i replied pointing him to the right forum... poof! the entire thread was shifted...

The deterioration of these forums with the introduction of Jive is matched only by the deterioration of the quality of moderation...

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advisor ,
Aug 19, 2009

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I cant speak for all Hosts, but when i move a thread, I PM the OP with a link to the thread in its new location.

I wasnt invloved in the thread you mention, but based on the title it seems the flex forum is the logical place for it,.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Curt Wrigley wrote:

I cant speak for all Hosts, but when i move a thread, I PM the OP with a link to the thread in its new location.

PM-ing people, especially newcomers, doesn't mean much.  It took me several weeks to find out that when Your Stuff is glowing slightly orange, that I had a PM.  Even now that I know, it is very easy to overlook when it does.

Moving topics to the right place seems to be a good idea to me, but only if a "shortcut" is left in the original forum, with a pointer to the new location.  Every forum software that I have ever used can do that.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Engaged ,
Aug 19, 2009

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We all know the reason... the high-handed, i know what's best attitude. There was a wrong post here by some poor dude, yesterday or the day before, with a question on Premiere. i replied pointing him to the right forum... poof! the entire thread was shifted...

The deterioration of these forums with the introduction of Jive is matched only by the deterioration of the quality of moderation...

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advisor ,
Aug 19, 2009

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So you are suggesting its wrong to move threads when they are in the wrong forum?

The premiere thread I moved to the premiere forum where it belongs.  I PMd the OP with a link to its new location.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Aug 19, 2009

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I wouldn't say it is completely wrong; but I did say that I think it is less confusing. Just reading the puzzled first sentence of this message is better than any reason iI could give: 3.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Engaged ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Curt Wrigley wrote:

So you are suggesting its wrong to move threads when they are in the wrong forum?

The premiere thread I moved to the premiere forum where it belongs.  I PMd the OP with a link to its new location.

You're being over helpful where it's not called for. You could see there was already a post redirecting the OP. There was absolutely no need for you to butt in and add to the confusion. as it occurred to you that people will access that thread with the post redirecting to the same forum and wonder what the hell is going on? Has it occured to you that the others who saw the reply to the OP may wonder why the thread vanished?

The answer is no. Because there's no thought from your end.. just a knee-jerk reaction where it's not called for. As a moderator, perhaps your time would be better served by telling Adobe how the present forums stink and how they're losing regulars... the ones who are the serious contributors. But will you do that? No... you're happy running around, deleting threads and posts, moving posts aimlessly and replying with completely meaningless statements as in your replies in either the 'Joke...' or '14 posts...' threads.

Please do not take this post as abuse aimed at you personally. It is a critique of the large number of moderators floating around nowadays.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Well it wasn't Curt that moved this one.  Sending a PM definitely does help and doing that shows you're at least being thoughtful about it, which is good.  But I do agree with the others that it can still lead to confusion (of others, or very new users who may not notice the PM feature of the forums right away) and that it's "overly helpful when it's not needed".

I suspect the problem will solve itself as our mods get burned out from doing so much stuff, but look at it this way-- leaving it there (maybe posting a link to the correct forum) is less work!  What we need are lazy mods that only do the bare minimum moderation, when action is blatantly required.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Curt Wrigley wrote:

So you are suggesting its wrong to move threads when they are in the wrong forum?

The premiere thread I moved to the premiere forum where it belongs.  I PM'd the OP with a link to its new location.

The problem with the moving of post, is like what happened to me yesterday. I was reading a thread here in this forum. Next time I went to thread I was unceremoniously dumped into the Adobe Premier Forum. I had to post to find out why I was there. And then unsubscribe from the thread. Only the person needing the moving should end up in the moved location not everyone else.

Met a nice fellow that was eveidently one of the regulars or the moderators named WineTaster. His picture shows two glasses of wine. welcoming me to the group then ROBO-Cop came in and explained what happened/ Then I unsubscribed.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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JayJhabrix wrote:

The answer is no. Because there's no thought from your end.

There is lots and lots of thought about this. Both as to how it is supposed to work, and as to how we can best work within the constraints placed by the software and enviroment.

How it is supposed to work is that people enter their question just anywhere. As they type, their message is analyzed and keywords are extracted. For instance names of products, operating systems etc. Together they for the tags for that particular post. Obviously users get the option to alter the automatically generated tags. Then when the message is posted the tags are finalized. Users can subscribe to tag clouds, either predefined or clouds they create themselves. They get notified of any post that matches their tag cloud. As they respond, they add their own tags thereby altering the tag cloud for the thread. As a consequence, the thread moves. It is still possible to combine this with a traditional forum approach, threads just appear in the forum that is closest in the N-dimensional space of the tag cloud.

Take the 'New to Adobe Flex' thread. When posted that would have the default tags "Adobe Flex Multimedia business applications intranet exams database interactions". That would make it end up somewhere near Flex-space, because as the only mentioned product name that would weigh heaviest. Then somebody provides an answer with a link to some documentation, and the thread moves through space in the direction of the Learning resources-space.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way here. There are some limitations in the software (tags exists, tag clouds exist and you can even subscribe to them), but there is no N-dmensional space calculation. And then the configuration provided by Adobe took away the tags, tag clouds and tag cloud subscriptions. So if we want to nudge a thread in the right direction we can't just post and thereby not just answers, but also tags. The only thing way we can do is move the thread. So should we?

There is no reason to presume the OP is less likely to find his message. If he was aware of a forum structure in the first place, he wouldn't have posted in the wrong forum. Moving a thread changes neither its URL, nor the URL of any post inside it, so there is no effect on bookmarks, the links in the OP's profile or email notifications.

There is a chance of confusion for others. Both in the source and the destination forum. In the source forum that goes for unsubscribed users who have seen the thread and have not responded. Subscribed users or users who have responded have the link available to them. In the destination forum there is the chance there may be confusion by subscribed users (did I miss notifications?). Some of that can be mitigated by posting a note with an explanation, some of that can not.

Then on one hand it is extra work (though that can be significantly automated), but on the other hand it has the long term benefit of less duplication and better search results. (If only people would search before asking.)

So weighing that all I typically move them unless:

- the OP has asked the same question in multiple places (note + lock)

- the OP has already started a thread in the correct forum (point to other thread + lock);

- the OP is guided to the correct forum by name and link more then 2 hours old (ignore, lock if the thread continues offtopic).

The move process typically consists of a move, post an explanation (after the move so email notifications in the new forum get triggered) and unsubscribe from the thread. I am still working on adding an automated PM to the OP if he isn't subscribed to his own thread (I can see who is subscribed to what through the webservices).

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Aug 19, 2009

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My experience in these forums indicates that the until now usual practice of directing lost newcomers to the correct forum is simple enough, needs no further implementation, is very effective in most cases, and helps newcomers in orienting themselves in the forums.


I find the idea of automatically functioning forums, in which messages are gradually moved by software to increasingly more relevant sub-forums, in which messages are deleted and threads locked according to fixed rules, and the such, to be frankly terrifying. Specially considering that the present version of the forums isn't even capable of managing much simpler tasks, that manifest software errors cannot be solved after several months of being detected, and that some problems that are said to be solved are not available because the forums are still inexplicably using version 2.5.7 of the software.


In my personal opinion, it would be much better to concentrate efforts in making these forums fully and correctly operative than in devising new and not really necessary schemes that could eventually make the forum even less operative by overtaxing the software and the personnel in charge of it.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Wow, so I've now earned the name of RoboCop!

I tend to agree with Curt. I don't find it confusing whatsoever to move a thread to where it really belongs. After all, if the user wound up posting in this forum to begin with, it's rather obvious to me they are totally confused and don't know where they are. So how will they find their way back here later?

I know there are lots of Jive haters here and I fall into what appears to be a minority with my affinity for the new format, but one of the really cool things is that when you post or reply to a post, you are automatically subscribed to that post. This means any replies come to you via E-Mail. So it shouldn't matter if the thread were moved to Martha Stewart's house. Replies will get to the OP.

I know if I were to accidentally post in the wrong forum I'd much rather see someone move my thread automatically to where those that can help me will possibly answer it. I would find it a bit on the rude side and feel chastised to simply be advised I was in the wrong place and to go post again in the correct place. I would feel it was imposing a penalty on me for being in the wrong place to begin with.

And for those of you that are thinking about suggesting that E-Mail subscriptions can be turned off, so what if the user does that? How will they find their way back then? I'll just say that if they are lost enough to be posting in the wrong place, it's highly unlikely that they are savvy enough with the forums to have figured out how to unsubscribe. Heck, even some of us that have been here for a while don't seem to fully understand how the subscription process works.

Cheers... Rick

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Wow, so I've now earned the name of RoboCop!

I tend to agree with Curt. I don't find it confusing whatsoever to move a thread to where it really belongs. After all, if the user wound up posting in this forum to begin with, it's rather obvious to me they are totally confused and don't know where they are. So how will they find their way back here later?

The thread I have seen that was copied was still active in the Forum Comments and in the forum that it was moved to. You could post in that thread in either location and it would show up both here and there. I agree the threads need to be moved to the correct place. I don't know about other users but I hate the email subscriptions and do not use them (to me they are no better than spam), however...I do go back to the forums and follow up on topics that I have read. I think that if a thread is moved the OP needs to be notified via email, pm, etc. But I also think that it needs to be posted in the thread that it has been moved. On the thread that I mentioned above, it was showing up in BOTH places...so people were still telling the guy the go post in the correct forum when in fact he was already there (it was just showing up here as well).

Another thing that may be causing all these misplaced posts is the whole design of this wonderful forum.

I go to the Photoshop Mac forum, hit New and this is what comes up :

Picture 1.png

Now you tell me, why are all these new users posting here? This is not user friendly. There is NO reason that I need to be asked where to post, it should automatically go to the forum I am in period.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Ozzwoman9 wrote:

Now you tell me, why are all these new users posting here? This is not user friendly. There is NO reason that I need to be asked where to post, it should automatically go to the forum I am in period.

You are 100% correct, the Jiveware interface here is completely stupid.  (And don't you just love how it animates the box, all slow, specifically to waste another second of your time?)

But, as a tip-- try clicking the "Start new discussion" or whatever it's called link in the right column, that won't make you choose a stupid forum.  Of course this fact does nothing to help new people.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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But, as a tip-- try clicking the "Start new discussion" or whatever it's called link in the right column, that won't make you choose a stupid forum.  Of course this fact does nothing to help new people.

Honestly I surf the web at work so I have my window shrunk left to right and I hardly ever look to that side. Perhaps if that were moved... Although it would seem that the function does exist to go straight to the forum you are in, so why/who is the one that decided to make the top bar option different?

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Sorry about misnaming you.

Captiv8r wrote:

Wow, so I've now earned the name of RoboCop!

I tend to agree with Curt. I don't find it confusing whatsoever to move a thread to where it really belongs. After all, if the user wound up posting in this forum to begin with, it's rather obvious to me they are totally confused and don't know where they are. So how will they find their way back here later?

I know there are lots of Jive haters here and I fall into what appears to be a minority with my affinity for the new format, but one of the really cool things is that when you post or reply to a post, you are automatically subscribed to that post. This means any replies come to you via E-Mail. So it shouldn't matter if the thread were moved to Martha Stewart's house. Replies will get to the OP.

I know if I were to accidentally post in the wrong forum I'd much rather see someone move my thread automatically to where those that can help me will possibly answer it. I would find it a bit on the rude side and feel chastised to simply be advised I was in the wrong place and to go post again in the correct place. I would feel it was imposing a penalty on me for being in the wrong place to begin with.

And for those of you that are thinking about suggesting that E-Mail subscriptions can be turned off, so what if the user does that? How will they find their way back then? I'll just say that if they are lost enough to be posting in the wrong place, it's highly unlikely that they are savvy enough with the forums to have figured out how to unsubscribe. Heck, even some of us that have been here for a while don't seem to fully understand how the subscription process works.

Cheers... Rick

But the fact is as a result of a Post being moved I got tangled up in a Thread that ended up in another forum. You were the one that explained to me what happened. I neither like or disklike the Jive forums. I would just prefer that they work right. And until they can move the thread, and it does not catch other people not related to Forum unaware, being moved along with the original poster. Then they should cease moving threads around. I clicked on the email notification link which was message in the original place. when  link opened I was in I believe it was AfterEffects (about video Editing) Forum.  the way it should work is if a thread is moved from one place to the other it should be dead to everyone except the originator of the errant post.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009

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No problem on the misname. I have two different forum names. RoboWizard and Captiv8r. (This is one of the reasons I am among the minority liking Jive. The FuseTalk made me become Schizophrenic with multiple identies so I could receive E-Mail message notifications from two different forums)

The Jive forums allow you to subscribe at the forum level. Sounds like you have done that. So any messages arriving in the forum comments forum are routed to you via E-Mail. But when you click the link in the E-Mail, you see the message (wherever it may be) and not the forum. Because you elected to reply to the message, you were then subscribed to the message replies, not the forum the message was moved to. Sounds like that may have confused you.

For what it's worth, a few minutes ago I moved a message inside one of the other forums I monitor. I received a reply back from the OP sincerely thanking me for the move so they didn't have to.

Cheers... Rick

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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I think moving threads is a good idea, as long as the OP is informed somehow. While it lingers in the wrong forum a note before the title - [Moved] would be useful, just as some hosts are polite enough to put [Locked] before a title when that is the case.

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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minority liking Jive. The FuseTalk ...

In a nutshell. Those coming from WebX are the ones who tend to take a different view.


The loss of major contributors should not be dismissed as mere collateral damage - some of the big hitters came from the dreadful Fusetalk forums - and therefore used NNTP instead. They wouldn't tolerate its loss.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Ozzwoman9 wrote:

The thread I have seen that was copied was still active in the Forum Comments and in the forum that it was moved to.

That is incorrect. First of all, threads can not be copied. That functionality is simply not present in either the Jive software or in the software I used to move the thread yoou mean. Second, threads can not be in multiple forums. Thread have a one-to-one foreign key relation to forums so it is simply impossible for threads to be in two forums.

What can happen is that on one of the servers the cache of the HTML for the thread gets out of sync and a thread that is in one forum is linked from another forum. But even in that case, the thread is still only in one forum. Only the permissions, notifications, escalations, tags etc. from one forum apply. That distinction is subtle, but very important because it explains exactly how the current behaviour of the forums is.

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Chenging titles is typically not a good idea since that messes up the email notifications. (Threads have a subject that is a separate property from the subject of topics, and the change will only affect one of them.) Adobe should just hurry up with upgrading so the cache consistency issue is fixed.

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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PjonesCET wrote:

the way it should work is if a thread is moved from one place to the other it should be dead to everyone except the originator of the errant post.

So basically you want the message to just disappear without a trace from its original location. I'm sure that could be arranged.

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Engaged ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Notifications of your last few posts with pretty URLs have come through garbled (=missing the anchor), see 2190227. Is something else broken now?

Any particular reason why email notifications of your posts are transfer-encoded variously QP and 7-bit? Are some e-mail posts and the others webside?

Noel

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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If I understand your question about missing anchors right that is an old bug. Could you point me to two examples, one with the problem and one without?

I am posting half of my messages through the we and half through my own client. I will have a look at the differences that causes.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Aug 19, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

PjonesCET wrote:

the way it should work is if a thread is moved from one place to the other it should be dead to everyone except the originator of the errant post.

So basically you want the message to just disappear without a trace from its original location. I'm sure that could be arranged.

At least in the case of moved threads once it moved it should simply, if not disappear, at least render dead in the original place it was posted. So that situations like I went through, reading the Posts following along them Boom I am suddenly in AfterEffects. I unsubscribed the thread after I found out how I got there. But I should not have been bounced there. THe only forums you should go to for whatever reason should be the Forum you are subscribed to. And once a thread is moved that should be the end of the link period, in the original forum.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

I am posting half of my messages through the we and half through my own client.

I would have thought that that is very bad practice for a moderator to adopt.


Inconsistency is bad in a paragon!

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LEGEND ,
Aug 20, 2009

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I would have thought that that is very bad practice for a moderator

to adopt.

Unless he's trying to test the client so we'll end up with a usable

client for these forums...

Harbs

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Aug 20, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 20, 2009

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Not at all. It is important to interact with these forums in different ways so you get to know the impact your actions may have on other people working in different ways. Especially as a moderator, but it wouldn't hurt most users either to try something else.

Look at it this way: if Adobe management had ever tried to follow a high volume forum in different ways, we would still have had NNTP.

So why don't you try something else for a change? http://forums.adobe.com/message/2184870?tstart=0#2184870

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Aug 20, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Aug 20, 2009

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Yes but we are not guinea pigs!


I know the adobe servers are powered by hamsters but experiments should be carrired out in a test environment.

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Aug 20, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 20, 2009

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Any experiments are done in a test environment. I am running my stuff in a nice, separate Sandbox on my system, isolated from all my production stuff.

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Aug 20, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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I thought someone mentioned that the posts are 'copied' for a while before it actually gets moved into the correct forum I know I have seen several posts that were showing both here and in their appropriate forum for a while before it was 'fixed'.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Engaged ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Ozzwoman9 wrote:

I thought someone mentioned that the posts are 'copied' for a while before it actually gets moved into the correct forum I know I have seen several posts that were showing both here and in their appropriate forum for a while before it was 'fixed'.

It's reached the stage where they don't even know what they're doing any longer... 

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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I read the same. You shouldn't believe everything you read though. And when in doubt, use common sense: if links from 2 places point to the same URL, they point to the same thread, so the thread has not been copied.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Is it possible to do a copy to another forum in this suck *** jiveware?  Then ya'll mods can lock the ones in the wrong place (to get that out of your system) with a link to the copy in the correct forum, but the copy in the correct forum remains open for the user.

But, that would make too much sense for jiveware, wouldn't it?

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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The use case for opying content seems rather small. For the way you propose it, you would end up having to make a choice on whether or not to copy subscriptions. Would you want to award points in both places? And to different answes? And how do you prevent the poluting your search? By the time you have answers to those questions, the use case is microscopic. Even for merging duplicate threads (a much more frequently heard request) similar questions will quickly invalidate most solutions as having too many downsides.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

The use case for opying content seems rather small. For the way you propose it, you would end up having to make a choice on whether or not to copy subscriptions. Would you want to award points in both places? And to different answes? And how do you prevent the poluting your search? By the time you have answers to those questions, the use case is microscopic. Even for merging duplicate threads (a much more frequently heard request) similar questions will quickly invalidate most solutions as having too many downsides.

Since it was posted in the wrong forum, subscriptions shouldn't be copied if they're a sub for the forum itself.  If they're a subscription for the thread that someone added specifically for that thread, it should be copied.  (If this doesn't make sense it's probably because I don't use or care at all about subscriptions.)  Not sure I really see the problem here, other than probable Jiveware flaws.

Points - no points allowed in the locked thread would make sense.  Although, to most people the answer to that question is a big "who cares".

Polluting search - you mean in a theoretical situation where search was actually usable?    It probably wouldn't be a problem since nobody's likely to search for "Flex" or "Dreamweaver" on the forum comments section, and anything they do search for (i.e. "Jive sucks") probably won't be in a product specific post.  So, another big "who cares".

I don't think it's such a rare case, it seems to work in every case where a thread is posted in the wrong place.  If it was done right and if it was possible in Jiveware, but I'm almost certain it's not just because... well, come on--Jive? 

Although, I do agree with Claudio that a simple "post in this forum instead" should be enough.  I only suggested a post "copy" feature for those who feel it's not.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Aug 19, 2009

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So that's what happened with that thread! I was yesterday reading JJ's perfectly civilized message telling the OP where to post the question, when the thread simply vanished. I thought maybe my eyes were playing more dirty tricks on me, and I didn't want to add more fuel to the fire asking why the thread had been deleted in case it had, so I didn't say anything.


I think that the usual way of politely telling poor lost souls were to post is a simpler and quite less confusing way of dealing with these problems.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Engaged ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Claudio González wrote:


I think that the usual way of politely telling poor lost souls were to post is a simpler and quite less confusing way of dealing with these problems.

Quite However, doubt if those are the objectives...

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Aug 19, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Claudio González wrote:


I think that the usual way of politely telling poor lost souls were to post is a simpler and quite less confusing way of dealing with these problems.

Claudio, that's being sensible.


Sensible went out with the old forums.  

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Aug 19, 2009 1
Advisor ,
Aug 19, 2009

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I believe it is more polite to move a thread to the correct forum and provide a link to the OP, then to tell them to re-post in the right place.   I usually receive a postive response from the OP using this workflow.   I am thinking of the OP when doing this.  I believe it is the best way to help them as the ones who post here by mistake are generally new users and typically appreciate the extra help.

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Engaged ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Please intervene where required... needless help is no help... this thread should give you enough clues on that issue... for the rest, 'silence is golden'...

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Aug 19, 2009 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Aug 19, 2009

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Well, this particular lost soul has not posted anything since he started the moved thread. One could perhaps guess that he hasn't been able to find what happened with his message.


Showing a lost newcomer where to post, or even how to find where to post, seem to me more helpful ways of teaching him how to move around these not so easy to use forums than just transferring his message (plus eventual replies) to what one thinks is the proper forum...

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Aug 19, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009

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It must seem like Scottie beaming you up to the wrong planet. 

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Aug 19, 2009 0
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Aug 19, 2009

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I think it would be more helpful to first ask them if they want the thread moved or if they'd rather repost.  Moving posts is IMO one of the dumbest and most useless forum features ever created.  Next to the broken ones Jiveware tries to implement.

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