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Why are you banning all these people?

Explorer ,
Nov 05, 2009

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I do not understand what is going on over here. These are long time people. Who are you that is doing this? It can't be the Adobe I know and love.

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Why are you banning all these people?

Explorer ,
Nov 05, 2009

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I do not understand what is going on over here. These are long time people. Who are you that is doing this? It can't be the Adobe I know and love.

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Nov 05, 2009 0
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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 05, 2009

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Cindy- wrote:

Why are you banning all these people?

I think it's just because they can.

I ca understand one of the bans (the mostly unsuccesful one) but the rest...well...I couldn't say.

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Nov 05, 2009 0
Explorer ,
Nov 05, 2009

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Well I wish I could make some sense of this because it feels pretty bad around here.

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Nov 05, 2009 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 05, 2009

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The users in question were banned for repeated violations of the Adobe Community Guidelines.  We received numerous complaints about their behavior and attitude towards other users. The Forums team takes these reports seriously and is committed to maintaining a respectful atmosphere for community collaboration.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 05, 2009

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Community Admin wrote:

We received numerous complaints about their behavior and attitude towards other users.

Legitimate complaints? Are we thinking of the same John Joslin?

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Explorer ,
Nov 05, 2009

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I think some if not the majority of discontent around here has been legitimate. It seems to me that people had valid complaints and got banned for voicing them.    I feel very sad about the entire turn of events. Now if you want to ban me for saying so.... be my guest. I don't hardly come here anymore anyway.

The friendship and camaraderie is gone as is a tremendous amount of experience. Now I am not talking about LT but many of the others who have just left or you have booted out. I think there are a lot of people who will never forget this.

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Nov 05, 2009 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 05, 2009

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The users were not banned for voicing their criticism but for creating a negative, hostile atmosphere for other users. Adobe is working to make the forums a more inviting and respectful community.

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Explorer ,
Nov 05, 2009

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When you are chasing off some of the very people who have a lot of experience and knowledge aren't you defeating the purpose of the forums? Many of these people have gone away in silence. They don't want to be here anymore. Maybe you find comfort in that but I think it feels really bad. So do many others.

Perhaps if some of the older crowd had been included in the decisions about the forums there would not have been so much anger?

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Adobe Employee ,
Nov 05, 2009

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These individuals were banned as a result of repeated complaints from other forum users.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 05, 2009

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Are we talking about the same -for example- John Joslin? The one with over 3,800 user points (useless as they may be)?

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 05, 2009

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Claudio González wrote:

Are we talking about the same -for example- John Joslin?

That's exactly what I was getting at.

At least with some of the others, I've seen folks complain about them (not that I necessarily agree or disagree with those complaints) but I'm not sure I've EVER really seen a complaint about JJ. I mean, not from someone that doesn't need medical or psychological help at any rate.

I just hate to see an honestly helpful person getting a bad rap.

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Nov 05, 2009 0
Nov 05, 2009

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Some people may have been lumped in by mistake.

We're trying to do the right thing - and we are working to correct mistakes.

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Contributor ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Chris,

thanks for acknowledging that there were mistakes.

SInce *anyone* can report abuse, whether legit or not, please tell me that there is a legitimate difference between being reported for abuse vs. having posts that are actually considered abusive?  I can't believe that either John Joslin or Kath H have any of the latter.

hopper

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Nov 06, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Hi Hopper

You make a good point and I agree with it. I would expect that Adobe would see the Abuse report, then make a decision to ban or not to ban, based on what was reported. I would seriously doubt that they would simply see that an Abuse report had been submitted, then wholesale ban the person being reported. If that had happened, it would surprise me.

Cheers... Rick

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Contributor ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Rick,


from what I understand, it would seem that mistakes were indeed made.  That folks were reported from abuse, but not considered abusive and yet they were banned.


And Claudio is right, LT keeps right on posting ...

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Advocate ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Adobe is working to make the forums a more inviting and respectful community.

So, by creating a respectful community how about tell those that are being banned why they were banned exactly and also telling a user why you are deleting their post? Or does Adobe not follow their own policy?

You do realize that by actually telling people what they did wrong will most likely result in the problem being solved. But by not telling people what they did wrong and why you are creating a negative environment. And do you realize that this recent increase in banning users have given you a negative effect in many areas outside of just this forum, at a time when your customer support is lacking...do you really want this much bad press?

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Nov 06, 2009 0
Mentor ,
Nov 06, 2009

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I knew from the sart of the new system when they added an Abuse button, like with all things of good intentions, that in the hands of some would be a great tool for creating mischief. And the people looking at the complaints are simply looking at numbers instead of actually viewing the post being shown as being abusive and deciding whether the complaints are legit, or the work of someone making the report, trying to create mischief.

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Nov 06, 2009 0
LEGEND ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Hi Hopper

Yes, when I saw the message from Adobe regarding the new policies, I would be lying if I didn't say that I cringed because of the fact that LT seems bent on exhausting every possible combination of characters to create new identities. My thought was that LT is illustrating how ineffectual banning actually is if someone is determined.

However, I do applaud, honor and respect Adobe's efforts to bring more civil discussion to at least this particular forum. Nowhere else have I ever witnessed so many vehement personal attacks and overall bad behavior by some.

Cheers... Rick

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 06, 2009

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To cut a long reply short... well said.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Hi Shunith

Indeed I am referring to only this forum. And to me, that's one of the issues in a nutshell.

Most I've seen complaining seem to be complaining about the moderation in this forum only. They seem to be under the impression that this particular forum is a total indication of what is happening in ALL of the hundreds of other Adobe forums. And because they dislike the moderation style here, they are stating outright that it's the total cause of all these helpful people that have left. It's like having a $50,000,000 diamond and stating the whole thing should simply be discarded because one of the many facets just isn't quite as shiny as all the others.

I assist in moderating two of the many forums. Aside from a very occasional moving of posts to proper forums or cleaning out an inadvertent E-Mail address, no moderation is needed. All are happy, helpful and respectful of one another. No name calling and other bad behavior is present. We lost no regular contributors stomping out of the sandbox because the sand changed color. Everyone seemed to say, hmmm, look at that. New sand! What can we do with it? How can we use it to our advantage.

Cheers... Rick

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Advocate ,
Nov 06, 2009

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You're forgetting something...

More complaints are in this forum because this is the Forum Comments where we post issues about the functionality of the forums. It is the problems associated with this Jive software that are the starting point of the outrage. Once the outrage occurred, then the moderators starting going crazy deleting posts, etc. That is the only reason that you see such types of comments on this forum. Go to any non-Jive forum on the web and you will see no such problems...go to Jive's main pages and you will see nothing but comments made about simple functionality problems. Also the fact that Jive is now at 4.0 and Adobe is using 2.5.7 is a little unnerving. The fact that we see posts stating that issues have been fixed in the newer version and yet we are forced to use the old version is the reason why such things are getting posted over and over again. And now Adobe is testing out some newer forum software, and quite frankly given how this Jive stuff runs (doesn't run) it has everyone on here leery about downloading and installing something on their computer just to be disappointed like we have been since the switch to Jive.  /my 2¢

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Explorer ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Brutus_Maximus gets the points.  
 
As far as the angry posts go? It is because people are angry!! Legitimately so. This was once a nice community and some genius came along and decided it's time to change all that. I like the reference made to the Quark forums in the previous post by Brutus_Maximus. Does no one learn anything by watching others?
 
You brought a heap of strangers into the Adobe community and proceeded to alienate people with your new rules and self-righteous behavior then blame the community for getting excited about it.
 
Anyone who has been here any length of time knows the truth about it. Unfortunately anyone who has been here any length of time is probably gone. But then perhaps that was the goal. 
 
You shot yourself in the foot Adobe.

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Valorous Hero ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Hi Oz

I don't personally have any issues with folks pointing out the forum shortcomings. I do understand that folks are frustrated. What I do take issue with is when it becomes personal. For example, Anne Shelborne (I think that's the name). Anne seemed to harbor nothing but animosity at anyone bearing a "Community Expert" badge near their name. She seemed to believe we were personally responsible for "ruining" the forums. I've not seen her post in a while and I'm not sure if she was one of those banned or not. But it would seem to me that Adobe is simply trying to curb some of that personal type of seething rage and keep things in check.

What baffles me is why this particular forum is so hostile that we cannot seem to be able to discuss different viewpoints without folks calling each other idiots for feeling a certain way. When all that should be happening is that we are hearing WHY each of us feels as we do. And as I see it, that's what Adobe is trying to clear up. And that's precisely why Politics and Religion are listed as two of the topics they don't wish to see discussed.

In my estimation, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. And just because you feel strongly Red or Blue about something, it doesn't grant you the license to call another an idiot for feeling opposite about whatever it is.

I think if we give it a chance, we will see some discussions emerge that help us all learn from one another.

Cheers... Rick

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 06, 2009

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It's like having a $50,000,000 diamond and stating the whole thing should simply be discarded because one of the many facets just isn't quite as shiny as all the others.

no. it's more like having a big expensive piece of pooh. no matter how much you got suckered into paying for it, it's still pooh.

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Nov 06, 2009 1
Explorer ,
Nov 06, 2009

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> What baffles me is why this particular forum is so hostile that we cannot seem to be able to discuss different viewpoints without folks calling each other idiots for feeling a certain way.

Viewpoints? It has been obvious that any opinions we might have fall on deaf ears. It is obvious that all the powers that be really want is for those who are dis-content to just shut up. It is clear, really clear that the changes that have been made are the way it is. It is clear that the people who are now running these forums are not part of the Adobe community. And you want people to like it?

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Advocate ,
Nov 06, 2009

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I can see some questioning about the Community Experts. The title came out of nowhere. No one can give a definite answer as to who and how these people are chosen. And while some of you have a lot of knowledge about how things work behind the scenes, there are also some which seemingly have no people skills and should only be allowed to work behind the scenes and not in moderation.

I do agree that someone needs to step in and handle the outrage correctly. And by correctly that means, telling people what they have done wrong, why posts have been deleted, etc. Not just ticking people off by banning them without warning.

It also adds to the frustration when all these Employees seem to step in and take control out of nowhere all the sudden. No introduction or anything. And then have the nerve to post this link stating that problems are in fact being worked on:

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/433723?tstart=0

And I have asked several times how we can take this seriously when all the dates are totally out of whack on that thread and yet no one seems to care.

OP was: Nov 4, 2009 6:45PM

Message was edited on: 2009-10-14

2nd post was on: Nov 3, 2009 6:10PM

It would be nice if questions would be answered instead of locked and deleted.

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Valorous Hero ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Hi Cindy

Viewpoints? It has been obvious that any opinions we might have falls on deaf ears.

I suppose you are referring to Adobe here. No problem

It is obvious that all the powers that be really want is for those who are dis-content to just shut up.

Well, I'm sure Adobe would rather not hear that folks are discontented. But I've not seen anyone saying that anyone should just shut up about issues. If you have an issue, it needs to be stated. Otherwise, how will it ever be known? After all, they are helpless to address issues they are unaware of, no?

It is clear, really clear that the changes that have been made are the way it is.

I'm not sure if you are referring to the new statement made about how things will be or if you are referring to the forums changeover. I suppose either way, you are correct. But then, as I see it, so much of life and your life experience is determined not by what happens, but by how you decide to react to it. That's my philosophy. I always have a choice in how I elect to react to any given situation. I sometimes can't change the situation, but I can choose to allow it to ruin my day or just become something that happened and move on. Then again, that's just me. I don't expect everyone to be like me. What a boring world that would be if we were all the same!

It is clear that the people who are now running these forums are not part of the Adobe community.

As far as I'm aware, the people that run the forums are actual Adobe employees. Aren't employees part of the community?

And you want people to like it?

I personally don't want anyone to like anything. I choose what I like and you choose what you do. All I hope for is open, honest, mature discussion to occur with no personal attacks involved.

Cheers... Rick

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Advocate ,
Nov 06, 2009

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It is obvious that all the powers that be really want is for those who are dis-content to just shut up.

Well, I'm sure Adobe would rather not hear that folks are discontented. But I've not seen anyone saying that anyone should just shut up about issues. If you have an issue, it needs to be stated. Otherwise, how will it ever be known? After all, they are helpless to address issues they are unaware of, no?

Well deleting posts and banning those who disagree sure makes it seem like Adobe doesn't care.

Of course I suppose that if you are one of the executives at Adobe that made the top 10 highest salary list of corporations then I guess you really don't care.

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Valorous Hero ,
Nov 06, 2009

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I do see your point and to an extent, I agree.

On the flip side, are you willing to see that slightest possibility exists that Adobe may have read some of the posts that were made and considered them to be personal attacks on some of the participants?

Note that they did state in some cases they maybe made a mistake in banning. I guess I sort of liken this to having three children. One child slaps another. Then when the slapped child slaps the originator back, the parent calls all three down for misbehavior when really only two were really misbehaving.

Gotta go to a meeting. Cheers for now... Rick

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Explorer ,
Nov 06, 2009

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> If you have an issue, it needs to be stated

You have got to be kidding. That is all people have done for months now.

> As far as I'm aware, the people that run the forums are actual Adobe employees. Aren't employees part of the community?

No! Not at all. Part of the community are the designers, photographers, pre-press people or whatever who USE this software. Not the people that Adobe decided to hire to come run this thing. The kind of "community expert" I am accustomed to enjoying are the kind we had on the Mac Photoshop forum. He was a real member of the community. He used the software and knew more than a little bit about it. I am talking about the people who are in business using this thing.

So when you say "community expert". Expert at what? Why didn't Adobe ask some of the people who were already part of the particular community to participate in the "change".

No, sorry. I cannot hear you either. Your entire post is what everyone has a problem with. You couldn't possibly see it because you are polarized with your point of view.

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Explorer ,
Nov 06, 2009

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Wow. I thought I was banned already. I can't edit my posts.

I can edit this one but not my previous.

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Enthusiast ,
Nov 06, 2009

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The web has become known as a place for free and open communication. The Adobe forums should continue to be as open as possible, as long as a post doesn't physically hurt anyone, and doesn't expound extremist religious or political beliefs that could lead to hurtful behavior. Some people who are experts, and are generous enough to voluntarily share their knowledge, are not always polite -- that's no crime, and there's no way I'd want to give up their valuable contributions just because they have an 'attitude' that may be offensive to some overly sensitive people.

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Advocate ,
Nov 06, 2009

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On another note, this is what happens when I try to view page 2 of this thread:

Picture 1.png

This is something new, I have never seen it before.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 06, 2009

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i was playing whac-a-mole with LT while reading the thread. It takes a bit of time to fully register that the posts were deleted which is why there's a new page even though there are under 50 posts left. It should fix itself in a bit

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Enthusiast ,
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Zeno Bokor wrote:

i was playing whac-a-mole with LT while reading the thread. It takes a bit of time to fully register that the posts were deleted which is why there's a new page even though there are under 50 posts left. It should fix itself in a bit

See here's a mod who's explained why the numbers don't match... a simple explanation, no ambiguity and no one has to wonder about strange machinations...

Good of you Zeno to reply.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Nov 08, 2009

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Thank you for explaining the missing messages. When people know what has happened, they don't have to start guessing, a great help to improve the atmosphere around here.

Addition: Sorry if I unwillingly create some confusion with this message. I opened this thread, clicked on the "Last post" button, was taken to message #49 by Zeno Bokor, and replied it. It was only when my reply was posted that I noticed I had not been taken to the last post of the thread, but to the last one on the first page.


I'm leaving my reply untouched because I think my comment is still valid.

Message was edited by: Claudio González. Reason: addition.

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Nov 08, 2009 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 06, 2009

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All:  this is a reminder that the Forums Moderation policy is clearly stated here:

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/517070?tstart=0

Purpose of Adobe Forums

The Adobe Forums are a place for Adobe software users to congregate, ask questions, and share experiences of using Adobe products with their peers. Message posts that threaten, abuse, or start verbal fights will not be tolerated in any of the forums. Any post that insults another community member, moderator, or administrator will be removed with no warning. Users who continue such behavior will be warned and will have their forum posting rights removed.

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Explorer ,
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Purpose of Adobe Forums

The Adobe Forums are a place for Adobe software users to congregate, ask questions, and share experiences of using Adobe products with their peers. Message posts that threaten, abuse, or start verbal fights will not be tolerated in any of the forums. Any post that insults another community member, moderator, or administrator will be removed with no warning. Users who continue such behavior will be warned and will have their forum posting rights removed.

And this forum is where you makes comments and suggestions. I find some of the attitudes of some of the moderators part of the problem. Where else could this be said?

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