Why can't we just have separate log ins and be done with this nonsense?

Engaged ,
May 23, 2009 May 23, 2009

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As the topic says...

This common login is supposed to be one reason why Adobe can't implement NNTP. But what function does it serve? I've commented in another thread, and below is more or less, what i said there...

That, i think, was the most assinine idea anyone ever came up with. I see no reason for not having separate log ins for store and forums / downloads. In fact, i can't think of one good reason to combine the two.

If i were a user of the Adobe store, i would definitely prefer to have a separate login and password for that area. I think most people would. I see a lot of aliases in the forums. In the store, you'd want to use your real name for tax and audit purposes. Moreover, what's to stop people creating two identities anyway? So, the whole purpose of a common id is meaningless.

Am sure, that even at this stage, it wouldn't be too difficult to separate the two. For instance, whenever i open the forums i see a welcome at the top of the screen. Right above 'Home'. Yet, i still have to login to the forums... what give? Idiotic.

Adding to the above, doing away with this single log in would also mean an end to this frustration of suddenly getting logged off, randomly staying logged in, etc., etc.

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correct answers 1 Correct Answer

Adobe Community Professional , Jun 01, 2009 Jun 01, 2009
John Joslin wrote:Forum Ops: The people who were helping users are all leaving the forums!Adobe Management:  Whatever.Adobe Management: Fuck 'em. We already have their money.

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LEGEND ,
May 23, 2009 May 23, 2009

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The very fact that your comment is reasonable and logical means that it has zero chance of being considered by the "management" of Adobe.

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May 24, 2009 May 24, 2009

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"In fact, i can't think of one good reason to combine the two."

Because you don't have all the facts, much less all the plans.

It makes sense.

NNTP has a few dozen things going against it, and login creditentials are the least of it's problems.

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LEGEND ,
May 24, 2009 May 24, 2009

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Chris Cox wrote:


NNTP has a few dozen things going against it, and login creditentials are the least of it's problems.

Chris,

Are you able to explain what some of the other issues are?

Harbs

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Advocate ,
May 24, 2009 May 24, 2009

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Because you don't have all the facts, much less all the plans.

Then you shouldn't be surprised to get what you may consider uninformed comments, nor should you criticise them. We didn't uninform ourselves.

It makes sense

Bald statements are unconvincing. People might agree if they understood. Care to share?

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Advocate ,
May 24, 2009 May 24, 2009

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I found that 'because I say so' didn't cut it with my kids beyond the age of about four, when they learnt to use their brains in the form of verbal reasoning.

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Advocate ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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Kath-H wrote:

I found that 'because I say so' didn't cut it with my kids beyond the age of about four, when they learnt to use their brains in the form of verbal reasoning.

Maybe I am missing something, but I didn't change logins or anything... didn't the WebX forums use the same login as the store?  If WebX did it I don't see why now it's all Jived up with this new software.

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Mentor ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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Ansury wrote:

Kath-H wrote:

I found that 'because I say so' didn't cut it with my kids beyond the age of about four, when they learnt to use their brains in the form of verbal reasoning.

Maybe I am missing something, but I didn't change logins or anything... didn't the WebX forums use the same login as the store?  If WebX did it I don't see why now it's all Jived up with this new software.

Nope.

When you logged on  to webX. You were not logged into adobe.com (store) and unless for some reason you desired to Logg out. as long as the set cookie was there. You could be logged in for 20 -30 years even through many shut downs of your computer. I know until they started messing with combining the Macromedia Groups and Adobe groups I had been singned in for two or three years or more.

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Advocate ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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Signed in 2-3 years? Hmm, yeah same here for the good forums.

Too bad that's gone forever! huh?

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Advocate ,
May 27, 2009 May 27, 2009

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Harbs. wrote on 2009-05-24 21:22:

Chris Cox wrote :

>> NNTP has a few dozen things going against it, and login creditentials are the least of it's problems.

Are you able to explain what some of the other issues are?

I don't want to speak for Chris, but perhaps the following recording of

a Connect session on the new forums from a few months back would help to

provide some insight: http://adobedev.adobe.acrobat.com/p61676377/

(Sorry it took a while, I had to check with Adobe this is not (or no

longer) under NDA first.)

Jochem

--

Jochem van Dieten

http://jochem.vandieten.net/

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Advocate ,
May 27, 2009 May 27, 2009

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Thanks Jochem, very interesting. In that discussion among 'ACEs' I saw absolutely no downsides of NNTP mentioned, except someone thought it was old fashioned. What I saw was spirited resistance to the dropping of NNTP, and *no* reason offered except that Adobe 'doesn't want' to host it any more.

Nothing at all about combining log-ins. And nothing to support Chris's assertion.

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Mentor ,
May 27, 2009 May 27, 2009

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Yeah I just watched that whole thing and what I got out of it was, We are going to do this whether you like it or not. I kept hearing the same things we have been complaining about and nobody seems to care. Thanks for the insight.

Adobe cares more about bells and whistles than information. Thanks Adobe. Might as well do what Quark did and remove the forums completely

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Advocate ,
May 27, 2009 May 27, 2009

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Kath-H wrote on 2009-05-27 23:02:

Thanks Jochem, very interesting. In that discussion among 'ACEs' I saw absolutely no downsides of NNTP mentioned, except someone thought it was old fashioned.

Somewhere, I think in the written comments on the left, it was mentioned

there was a problem with NNTP because changes to messages (due to

updates or moderation) were not reflected on the NNTP side. In addition

there was a mention about a looping problem were posts that were deleted

in the web forums were recreated from a feedback loop from NNTP.

Obviously both problems are entirely solvable and can be blamed

completely on a crappy implementation, but those are at least two of the

perceived problems. I don't know whether these are the problems Chris

was referring to. Chris?

Jochem

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Jochem van Dieten

http://jochem.vandieten.net/

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LEGEND ,
May 27, 2009 May 27, 2009

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Thanks Jochem,

It was very interesting.

The tone there seemed to be that if there's a way to make NNTP or

similar option work, they will.

The AIR app might really be a viable option, depending on how it's

done...

I'll still keep my fingers crossed...

Harbs

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Advisor ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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Yes, thanks for that link. And thanks to Adobe for releasing it to the general public.

The other thing that kept hitting me as odd was the mention of having to set up a news server. Yes, I know that it was somehow a part of the WebX program, but AFAIK, forums.macromedia.com already was a separate news server. At least it had been in use for some time before FuseTalk ever showed up. Of course, it may well have been on its last legs and and they would still have needed to build a new one. Moot point anyway since Jive did its jive thing in that regard.

Oh. And updates/changes/deletions to messages don't get re-sent through emails anyway. But then, Google doesn't archive my email, so I can almost understand that concern.

Thanks again

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Advocate ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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Aren't posts in the forums picked up by Google? Unexpurgated versions and all? So what's the extra concern with NNTP?

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Advisor ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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Yes, but I how fast? Sometimes the responses in the "Report Spam" threads are mighty quick! Even so, I would bet that some get archived before deletion.

So that is not a very strong argument in my book. I didn't hear any strong arguments against NNTP. The cost of server and maintenance may have been enough to push it over budget, though.

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Advocate ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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Then somebody should have the balls to say so.

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Enthusiast ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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Kath-H wrote:

Then somebody should have the balls to say so.

times are tough. b&lls like that can leave you out on the street right now...

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Advocate ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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Mark A. Boyd wrote on 2009-05-28 17:01:

The other thing that kept hitting me as odd was the mention of having to set up a news server. Yes, I know that it was somehow a part of the WebX program, but AFAIK, forums.macromedia.com already was a separate news server. At least it had been in use for some time before FuseTalk ever showed up. Of course, it may well have been on its last legs and and they would still have needed to build a new one.

Just get a subscription on some random usenet provider for $25 per month

and feed it through them.

Oh. And updates/changes/deletions to messages don't get re-sent through emails anyway. But then, Google doesn't archive my email, so I can almost understand that concern.

It is more logical to send notifications through NNTP then through

email. NNTP has both a mechanism to remove posts (cancel messages) and a

mechanism to update posts (through the Supercedes header). So not being

able to propagate changes from the forums to NNTP is really a bug in the

NNTP software Adobe used, not in the NNTP protocol itself.

Jochem

--

Jochem van Dieten

http://jochem.vandieten.net/

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Advisor ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

Mark A. Boyd wrote on 2009-05-28 17:01:

Oh. And updates/changes/deletions to messages don't get re-sent through emails anyway. But then, Google doesn't archive my email, so I can almost understand that concern.

It is more logical to send notifications through NNTP then through

email. NNTP has both a mechanism to remove posts (cancel messages) and a

mechanism to update posts (through the Supercedes header). So not being

able to propagate changes from the forums to NNTP is really a bug in the

NNTP software Adobe used, not in the NNTP protocol itself.

Yep. I had forgotten about those since they're turned off on so many servers these days. Totally appropriate in an authenticating setup, too.

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Advocate ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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didn't the WebX forums use the same login as the store?

No, definitely not. Maybe you chose the same user name and password for both. But the one would not automatically work on the other.

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LEGEND ,
May 27, 2009 May 27, 2009

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It was interesting. Thank you for sharing it.


However it just reinforces the feeling that Adobe (was) rushed into something prematurely, made a half-hearted attempt at a very short preview, and jumped in at the deep end.


As a result, the forums are now struggling to keep afloat.


I think someone forgot that user-to-user forums are no good if the users leave in disgust!

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Engaged ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

I think someone forgot that user-to-user forums are no good if the users leave in disgust!

Touche!

PS: Forgive, organising the accent was too much of a hassle!

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Mentor ,
May 28, 2009 May 28, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

I don't want to speak for Chris, but perhaps the following recording of

a Connect session on the new forums from a few months back would help to

provide some insight: http://adobedev.adobe.acrobat.com/p61676377/

(Sorry it took a while, I had to check with Adobe this is not (or no

longer) under NDA first.)

Jochem

the other thing I got out of the video was Adobe is more concerned about looking pretty than having a functional fast working forum with all the experts that have left us.

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