• Global community
    • Language:
      • Deutsch
      • English
      • Español
      • Français
      • Português
  • 日本語コミュニティ
    Dedicated community for Japanese speakers
  • 한국 커뮤니티
    Dedicated community for Korean speakers
Exit
2

Apple XDR - Rec709 reference vs. Display Color Management

Community Beginner ,
Nov 04, 2023 Nov 04, 2023

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Been looking at improving my color playback within Premiere - with Apple silicon Macbook Pros that have an XDR display, you can change the preset profile from a dropdown - one option being Rec709 or "HDTV".

 

My question is, for monitoring within Premiere, does it make more sense to switch to that profile and have the 'display color management' box disabled - or to keep the XDR display at P3 and check/enable the color management? From what I've gathered it wouldn't make sense to do both, as you'd be breaking the color profile shift even further. From my eyes, either option looks roughly the same, but I'm curious what is recommended practice from Adobe or power users.

TOPICS
Hardware or GPU

Views

653

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Nov 09, 2023 Nov 09, 2023

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Nov 12, 2023 Nov 12, 2023

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

What delivery are you doing color correction for?  Theatrical?  Broadcast?  Cable?  Streaming?  Mobile devices?  iPads/iPhones?

As of Premiere Pro 2024, you should be fine with your MacBook Pro set to Apple XDR Display (either P3-1600 nits or P3-500 nits) with creating content for broadcast, the web, or QuickTime Player using the new Viewer Gamma setting; however, as with all versions of Premiere Pro, you may want to consider a professional reference monitor patched via an SDI/HDMI breakout box from Blackmagic Design or AJA Video.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Beginner ,
Nov 12, 2023 Nov 12, 2023

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Thanks Warren! So just to clarify, with PP 2024 and beyond the reccomended workflow is just use DCM + set gamma viewer to whichever deliverable makes sense for the given project? I kinda figured DCM would be a little more accurate than changing the display color profile itself, but just wanted to check since it's an option on these newer computers now.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Nov 13, 2023 Nov 13, 2023

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

From your eyes it looks roughly the same because it rougly is the same. But you need to know a few things. AFAIK SDR reference modes on the XDR display do not use local dimming which reduces contrast ratio but I would say improves accuracy if you don't view the image fullscreen with UI on other displays. 

 

DCM enabled only means that Premiere will use the display profiling in the OS to translate whatever color data there is to the proper colors on the display. When you set the display to Rec.709 this profile is communicated to the OS as well and Premiere will not convert anything because the values already match so to speak. When choosing P3 it will apply the neccesary conversion to return the same colors to the display. If you match your brightness to 100nits again there would indeed be minimal difference. But local dimming would be enabled giving deeper blacks. Depending on your content you may not want local dimming for SDR as this is suspect to haloing/blooming with miniLED like this display.

 

Where it gets more annoying and complicated is delivering for web isn't as simple as using Rec.709 as the reference because there isn't really a true standard when it comes to displaying that content for desktops/internet. Everyone (the implementers, Vimeo, YT, Insta, VLC, Quicktime etc) seems to handle it slightly differently.

 

What I typically recommend if you never have to deliver for broadcast is to set your display to sRGB/Rec.709 with 2.2 gamma and 120nits (up to 180 if you're always in a bright room) and not use DCM in Premiere. This gives a good match for most displays and phones.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Beginner ,
Nov 15, 2023 Nov 15, 2023

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

LATEST

Thanks! I just want to say though, that enabling DCM with a Rec709 profile on my MBP does apply a conversion still, so maybe that's a bug that hasn't been worked out yet on the XDR displays, I think PP still thinks I'm using the default P3 mode.

If I toggle between P3+DCM and Rec709 without DCM, those look nearly the same - but DCM + Rec709 together, does crunch it down further and I definitely don't think that's correct for how dark it gets. So maybe anyone else looking at these settings, avoid DCM in that situation - just a heads up.

But otherwise, thank you for all the helpful info!

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Nov 15, 2023 Nov 15, 2023

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

It might help to know that the Reference Mode presets for Apple displays do not directly use ICC profiles, so they should not lead to “double color management.” The Reference Modes work similarly to hardware LUTs in advanced computer displays such as those by Eizo, NEC, and BenQ: Unlike a profile that just describes behavior, a preset actually sets the hardware behavior of the display.

 

The way it works at the macOS level is again similar to traditional pro computer displays:

 

1. A hardware preset is enabled (such as HDTV Video BT-709-BT.1886), and that actually restricts the display to all settings within that preset, including restricting color gamut and maximum luminance if set.

 

2. macOS still uses an ICC color profile to describe the display behavior to the rest of the system and applications. This is always on. This is an automatically generated profile that no longer shows up in the Displays settings, but for those who really want to see it, it’s in ColorSync Utility under Devices, Displays, Color LCD (or whatever the profile name is for the particular Apple display you’re using).

 

So in general use, macOS still uses an ICC profile to describe the display state when a Reference Mode preset is being used, and a Reference Mode preset and a display profile are both always in use. It isn’t double color management, because the Reference Mode itself isn’t using an ICC display profile. As with traditional pro displays, they are coordinated and work together: the Reference Mode sets the hardware specs, and the display profile reports those specs to the OS.

 

In a Premiere professional video context, I think it goes like this, but better minds might need to correct me:

 

It’s OK to have Display Color Management off if the Reference Mode preset precisely represents the video delivery standard you want to preview for. The Reference Mode preset has already set the display to reference specs, like a hardware-calibrated traditional video monitor, so what you see is what you get, even if an application is not color-managed. (This assumes you trust that the factory calibration is sufficiently accurate, and for a new-ish Apple XDR display, it probably is.)

 

You might want to enable Display Color Management if you need to preview multiple delivery specs that don’t match the current Reference Mode preset, and you don’t want to keep switching the Reference Mode preset. With Display Color Management on, I think that lets you open multiple projects/sequences that have different working color spaces, and their previews will be corrected for whatever the OS says the display profile is, which will be the current Reference Mode preset. But this paragraph is the one where I might not be totally correct.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines