• Global community
    • Language:
      • Deutsch
      • English
      • Español
      • Français
      • Português
  • 日本語コミュニティ
    Dedicated community for Japanese speakers
  • 한국 커뮤니티
    Dedicated community for Korean speakers
Exit
3

To RAID or not to RAID, that is the question

LEGEND ,
Nov 16, 2009 Nov 16, 2009

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

People often ask: Should I raid my disks?

The question is simple, unfortunately the answer is not. So here I'm going to give you another guide to help you decide when a raid array is advantageous and how to go about it. Notice that this guide also applies to SSD's, with the expection of the parts about mechanical failure.

What is a RAID?

RAID is the acronym for "Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks". The concept originated at the University of Berkely in 1987 and was intended to create large storage capacity with smaller disks without the need for very expensive and reliable disks, that were very expensive at that time, often a tenfold of smaller disks. Today prices of hard disks have fallen so much that it often is more attractive to buy a single 1 TB disk than two 500 GB disks. That is the reason that today RAID is often described as "Redundant Array of Independent Disks".

The idea behind RAID is to have a number of disks co-operate in such a way that it looks like one big disk. Note that 'Spanning' is not in any way comparable to RAID, it is just a way, like inverse partitioning, to extend the base partition to use multiple disks, without changing the method of reading and writing to that extended partition.

Why use a RAID?

Now with these lower disks prices today, why would a video editor consider a raid array? There are two reasons:

1. Redundancy (or security)

2. Performance

Notice that it can be a combination of both reasons, it is not an 'either/or' reason.

Does a video editor need RAID?

No, if the above two reasons, redundancy and performance are not relevant. Yes if either or both reasons are relevant.

Re 1. Redundancy

Every mechanical disk will eventually fail, sometimes on the first day of use, sometimes only after several years of usage. When that happens, all data on that disk are lost and the only solution is to get a new disk and recreate the data from a backup (if you have one) or through tedious and time-consuming work. If that does not bother you and you can spare the time to recreate the data that were lost, then redundancy is not an issue for you. Keep in mind that disk failures often occur at inconvenient moments, on a weekend when the shops are closed and you can't get a replacement disk, or when you have a tight deadline.

Re 2. Performance

Opponents of RAID will often say that any modern disk is fast enough for video editing and they are right, but only to a certain extent. As fill rates of disks go up, performance goes down, sometimes by 50%. As the number of disk activities on the disk go up , like accessing (reading or writing) pagefile, media cache, previews, media, project file, output file, performance goes down the drain. The more tracks you have in your project, the more strain is put on your disk. 10 tracks require 10 times the bandwidth of a single track. The more applications you have open, the more your pagefile is used. This is especially apparent on systems with limited memory.

The following chart shows how fill rates on a single disk will impact performance:

HD Tach B.jpg

Remember that I said previously the idea behind RAID is to have a number of disks co-operate in such a way that it looks like one big disk. That means a RAID will not fill up as fast as a single disk and not experience the same performance degradation.

RAID basics

Now that we have established the reasons why people may consider RAID, let's have a look at some of the basics.

Single or Multiple?

There are three methods to configure a RAID array: mirroring, striping and parity check. These are called levels and levels are subdivided in single or multiple levels, depending on the method used. A single level RAID0 is striping only and a multiple level RAID15 is a combination of mirroring (1) and parity check (5). Multiple levels are designated by combining two single levels, like a multiple RAID10, which is a combination of single level RAID0 with a single level RAID1.

Hardware or Software?

The difference is quite simple: hardware RAID controllers have their own processor and usually their own cache. Software RAID controllers use the CPU and the RAM on the motherboard. Hardware controllers are faster but also more expensive. For RAID levels without parity check like Raid0, Raid1 and Raid10 software controllers are quite good with a fast PC.

The common Promise and Highpoint cards are all software controllers that (mis)use the CPU and RAM memory. Real hardware RAID controllers all use their own IOP (I/O Processor) and cache (ever wondered why these hardware controllers are expensive?).

There are two kinds of software RAID's. One is controlled by the BIOS/drivers (like Promise/Highpoint) and the other is solely OS dependent. The first kind can be booted from, the second one can only be accessed after the OS has started. In performance terms they do not differ significantly.

For the technically inclined: Cluster size, Block size and Chunk size

In short: Cluster size applies to the partition and Block or Stripe size applies to the array.

With a cluster size of 4 KB, data are distributed across the partition in 4 KB parts. Suppose you have a 10 KB file, three full clusters will be occupied: 4 KB - 4 KB - 2 KB. The remaining 2 KB is called slackspace and can not be used by other files. With a block size (stripe) of 64 KB, data are distributed across the array disks in 64 KB parts. Suppose you have a 200 KB file, the first part of 64 KB is located on disk A, the second 64 KB is located on disk B, the third 64 KB is located on disk C and the remaining 8 KB on disk D. Here there is no slackspace, because the block size is subdivided into clusters. When working with audio/video material a large block size is faster than smaller block size. Working with smaller files a smaller block size is preferred.

Sometimes you have an option to set 'Chunk size', depending on the controller. It is the minimal size of a data request from the controller to a disk in the array and only useful when striping is used. Suppose you have a block size of 16 KB and you want to read a 1 MB file. The controller needs to read 64 times a block of 16 KB. With a chunk size of 32 KB the first two blocks will be read from the first disk, the next two blocks from the next disk, and so on. If the chunk size is 128 KB. the first 8 blocks will be read from the first disk, the next 8 block from the second disk, etcetera. Smaller chunks are advisable with smaller filer, larger chunks are better for larger (audio/video) files.

RAID Levels

For a full explanation of various RAID levels, look here: http://www.acnc.com/04_01_00/html

What are the benefits of each RAID level for video editing and what are the risks and benefits of each level to help you achieve better redundancy and/or better performance? I will try to summarize them below.

RAID0

The Band AID of RAID. There is no redundancy! There is a risk of losing all data that is a multiplier of the number of disks in the array. A 2 disk array carries twice the risk over a single disk, a X disk array carries X times the risk of losing it all.

A RAID0 is perfectly OK for data that you will not worry about if you lose them. Like pagefile, media cache, previews or rendered files. It may be a hassle if you have media files on it, because it requires recapturing, but not the end-of-the-world. It will be disastrous for project files.

Performance wise a RAID0 is almost X times as fast as a single disk, X being the number of disks in the array.

RAID1

The RAID level for the paranoid. It gives no performance gain whatsoever. It gives you redundancy, at the cost of a disk. If you are meticulous about backups and make them all the time, RAID1 may be a better solution, because you can never forget to make a backup, you can restore instantly. Remember backups require a disk as well. This RAID1 level can only be advised for the C drive IMO if you do not have any trust in the reliability of modern-day disks. It is of no use for video editing.

RAID3

The RAID level for video editors. There is redundancy! There is only a small performance hit when rebuilding an array after a disk failure due to the dedicated parity disk. There is quite a perfomance gain achieveable, but the drawback is that it requires a hardware controller from Areca. You could do worse, but apart from it being the Rolls-Royce amongst the hardware controllers, it is expensive like the car.

Performance wise it will achieve around 85% (X-1) on reads and 60% (X-1) on writes over a single disk with X being the number of disks in the array. So with a 6 disk array in RAID3, you get around 0.85x (6-1) = 425% the performance of a single disk on reads and 300% on writes.

RAID5 & RAID6

The RAID level for non-video applications with distributed parity. This makes for a somewhat severe hit in performance in case of a disk failure. The double parity in RAID6 makes it ideal for NAS applications.

The performance gain is slightly lower than with a RAID3. RAID6 requires a dedicated hardware controller, RAID5 can be run on a software controller but the CPU overhead negates to a large extent the performance gain.

RAID10

The RAID level for paranoids in a hurry. It delivers the same redundancy as RAID 1, but since it is a multilevel RAID, combined with a RAID0, delivers twice the performance of a single disk at four times the cost, apart from the controller. The main advantage is that you can have two disk failures at the same time without losing data, but what are the chances of that happening?

RAID30, 50 & 60

Just striped arrays of RAID 3, 5 or 6 which doubles the speed while keeping redundancy at the same level.

EXTRAS

RAID level 0 is striping, RAID level 1 is mirroring and RAID levels 3, 5 & 6 are parity check methods. For parity check methods, dedicated controllers offer the possibility of defining a hot-spare disk. A hot-spare disk is an extra disk that does not belong to the array, but is instantly available to take over from a failed disk in the array. Suppose you have a 6 disk RAID3 array with a single hot-spare disk and assume one disk fails. What happens? The data on the failed disk can be reconstructed in the background, while you keep working with negligeable impact on performance, to the hot-spare. In mere minutes your system is back at the performance level you were before the disk failure. Sometime later you take out the failed drive, replace it for a new drive and define that as the new hot-spare.

As stated earlier, dedicated hardware controllers use their own IOP and their own cache instead of using the memory on the mobo. The larger the cache on the controller, the better the performance, but the main benefits of cache memory are when handling random R+W activities. For sequential activities, like with video editing it does not pay to use more than 2 GB of cache maximum.

REDUNDANCY

(or security)

Not using RAID entails the risk of a drive failing and losing all data. The same applies to using RAID0 (or better said AID0), only multiplied by the number of disks in the array.

RAID1 or 10 overcomes that risk by offering a mirror, an instant backup in case of failure at high cost.

RAID3, 5 or 6 offers protection for disk failure by reconstructing the lost data in the background (1 disk for RAID3 & 5, 2 disks for RAID6) while continuing your work. This is even enhanced by the use of hot-spares (a double assurance).

PERFORMANCE

RAID0 offers the best performance increase over a single disk, followed by RAID3, then RAID5 amd finally RAID6. RAID1 does not offer any performance increase.

Hardware RAID controllers offer the best performance and the best options (like adjustable block/stripe size and hot-spares), but they are costly.

SUMMARY

If you only have 3 or 4 disks in total, forget about RAID. Set them up as individual disks, or the better alternative, get more disks for better redundancy and better performance. What does it cost today to buy an extra disk when compared to the downtime you have when a single disk fails?

If you have room for at least 4 or more disks, apart from the OS disk, consider a RAID3 if you have an Areca controller, otherwise consider a RAID5.

If you have even more disks, consider a multilevel array by striping a parity check array to form a RAID30, 50 or 60.

If you can afford the investment get an Areca controller with battery backup module (BBM) and 2 GB of cache. Avoid as much as possible the use of software raids, especially under Windows if you can.

RAID, if properly configured will give you added redundancy (or security) to protect you from disk failure while you can continue working and will give you increased performance.

Look carefully at this chart to see what a properly configured RAID can do to performance and compare it to the earlier single disk chart to see the performance difference, while taking into consideration that you can have one disks (in each array) fail at the same time without data loss:

Areca_HDTach1.jpg

Hope this helps in deciding whether RAID is worthwhile for you.

WARNING: If you have a power outage without a UPS, all bets are off.

A power outage can destroy the contents of all your disks if you don't have a proper UPS. A BBM may not be sufficient to help in that case.

Views

189.4K

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
replies 107 Replies 107
LEGEND ,
Dec 19, 2010 Dec 19, 2010

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Dec 21, 2010 Dec 21, 2010

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

hello,

i just posted in PPro cs5 and it got bumped to the 'hardware' forum

and so i've read this thread and noticed Harm touching on 'cluster size'

which is the subject of my post...

for HDD (not SSD)  what is the best cluster size for non OS disks, non pagefile disks?

For disks like video assets and audio files and final renders

wouldn't a larger cluster size result in faster/ more efficient performance?

thank you in advance,

jeffrey

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Dec 22, 2010 Dec 22, 2010

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Looking for recommendations on RAID set up:

I have CS5 running on an I7 OC to 3.3 mhz with 12 gb of RAM, Vista 64. I just lost one HDD out of my three drive set up. 1= 1TB non-raid OS and programs 2=1TB raid 0 vol.1 3=1TB raid 0 vol.2 (I know raid 0 is bad) I had minimal loss of data but now I am ready to take the next step. I usually only edit about 3-10 minute shorts all in HD from the canon 5D mkII. This usually translates to 60 minutes of HD footage and 100 stills needing to be used at a time for any project. I am looking for a cheap but fast and secure way to store my projects. I am thinking about an areca or adaptec controller with 4 disks in RAID 10 in an external enclosure that could be updated later. I would be able to move all projects and file to a single non raid external/ NAS after completion. I went with RAID 10 because of the rebuild time and redundancy yet it will offer me the speed of my RAID 0 set up that failed. My questions are on how to best implement this solution.

1. What kind of actual I/O speed do I need for editing in full resolution? Short projects so render times and read write were never an issue with RAID 0.

2. How does the External Attached Storage work? i.e. external box has it's own controller or do I need a controller in the WS as well or can I just plug it straight to the eSATA port on my ASUS Sabertooth X58 mobo?  I am getting confused by the port multipliers and the HBA's described on the ARECA site.

Thanks in advance for the forums help..

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Engaged ,
Feb 03, 2011 Feb 03, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Harm, I am looking forward to change my current disk set up because I have got lots of stock footage I have collected over the past four years. My current disk set is 1.5 tb x 2 in BIOS Raid 0 and 1.5tb x 2 in a TB 32 Raid 0 esata.

                                        1)     BIOS RAID 0 3TB partitioned into C & D

                                                                                              C= 746GB (OS, program files, pagefile)

                                                                                              D=2048 (Preview, Exports, Cache, projects)

                                       2)     Mapower TB32 3TB RAID 0 partitioned into E & F

                                                                                              E=1800GB (Media)

                                                                                              F=  900GB (Stock)

I have got an offline 2TB which I regularly use to backup any content that I generate on my workstation, including all the stock footage.I have had this set up from December 2010 when I upgraded to Win 7 Pro. Since then I am having problems with the TB32. Firstly what happened is that the TB32 disappeared from windows explorer when I left my computer idle for some time. I looked for it in disk management only to discover the two partition appearing as unallocated, I was really surprised with this.I took it to my computer shop, who only told me that one of the drivers have failed. The drives are just over one year old, so I took them apart and tested them and formatted only to discover that they were working, but in the process lost all the data that was on the drives. I put them back again to raid 0 and deleted the partitions which appeared again despite the formatting. I then created new current partitions and everything started to waork again. A couple of days they were unallocated again, but this time I selected offline in disk management and then online and the partition came back again.

Now the major problem is that when I am editing in Premiere CS5, if I leave it idle and come back after about some time the Premeire will crash and I have to relaunch it again, or the TB 32 will just go to sleep and disappear even in computer management which means I will have to switch it off and on again for it to come back to life. I never had these problems with Vista biz 64, so I am not sure what really is causing that. In vista I had two non raid internal HDDs.

But anyway I have decided to move on and ditch the TB32 because it appears to be slow.. not sure but when I copy files from my internal raid the speeds ranges between 130Mbps t0 60 at times. Since my workstation HP XW6600 is limited to 2 3.5" drives I can change it to 3 2.5" then I can use 1 for C drive and then RAID 0 for the other two, maybe hardware if I get a decent card. Externally I will haul my current 4 1.5s tb to create RAID 5 with a total of 4.5tbs which I will partition appropriately. The next thing now is to get a decent Raid 5 enclosure and the one I can afford is listed HERE . A good enclosure which can oprotect my data in case of power cut is greatly appreciated, because I am always thinking that the TB32 might have suffered a power cut and corrupted my data.

My system have got dual quad xeon (8 virtual cores) 24GB RAM and startech (silicon) card for esata and a MatroX RT X2 and GTX 285 2GB, Win 7 Pro and CS5 PP.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Mar 07, 2011 Mar 07, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hey Ham,


Thanks for all your hard work and help on the forum. Great info. Now I come to you for some help and recommendation for performance/protection and backup solution. I am editing with Premiere Pro & After Effects CS5 using AVCHD from my GH2. I have a 27" iMac 2.8Ghz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 1067 MHZ DDR3 ATI Radeon HD 4850.

Currently I have:


- a RAID 0 set up with a 2TB Lacie 2big Quadra on a FireWire 800 for editing video (Media Files, Scratch Disk)
- a 1TB Lacie Rugged XL for Time Machine backup
- a  2TB Internal Hitachi 7200RPM HD that stores my (OS, Applications, Personal Files, Project Files) with 400GB used up so far (plan to keep that to 1TB max since I've been told it bogs down your computer once you got past the half way mark of space)


However, something doesn't feel right to me about this set up. Not sure what it is.

I have been doing tons of research and I'm debating if I need to get something else. And came up with this list. Or even doing an OWC Turnkey Upgrade (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnkey/iMac_2010_27/add_eSATA) and adding an eSTATA port. Do you think this is necessary for the type of editing I'm doing with AVCHD and I won't be doing 10 tracks.


New list:


120 GB OWC Mercury Extreme Pro SSD (OS & Applications) --> as my internal HD (OWC Turnkey Upgrade replacement)


Elite-Al Pro Performance RAID 0+1 | 2.0TB Stripe+Mirror (2000GB+2000GB)  (Media/Projects & Previews/Exports)

- and then once that is full I was thinking of swapping HD's and storing it manually with some internal drive cases (http://www.hudzee.com/)
-  then use thisNewerTech Voyager Q- Quad Interface SATA 2.5" & 3.5"  Hard Drive Docking Solution to see what is on the backup drives later on


Where would Pagefile and Media Cache go?

Mercury Elite-Al Pro RAID SAFE 2TB (1TB x 2) 7200RPM 64MB (to back up personal files)


I'm a little lost and confused. I just want something that offers speed, reliability and backup. Nothing over kill. Just to get the job done.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Mar 17, 2011 Mar 17, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Can someone please help me out with my RAID/BACKUP solution and answer the above message posting. PLEASE! AND THANK YOU!

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Engaged ,
Mar 18, 2011 Mar 18, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

dreinz wrote:

Can someone please help me out with my RAID/BACKUP solution and answer the above message posting. PLEASE! AND THANK YOU!

You might as well start a new thread, coz this one seems old!

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Engaged ,
Mar 18, 2011 Mar 18, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

dreinz wrote:

Can someone please help me out with my RAID/BACKUP solution and answer the above message posting. PLEASE! AND THANK YOU!

Check out these links by Harm.

  1. http://forums.adobe.com/thread/427772
  2. http://forums.adobe.com/thread/662972

They might help in your case. Harm is a qualified advisor on PCs and not Macs. Check out this link http://forums.adobe.com/thread/598040

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
May 09, 2011 May 09, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

This was written a while back, and I am wondering if it is a viable question still; in other words - my question is: is RAIDing still considered necessary for video editing? And if so, can someone suggest a Raid Controller?

This is intended for a machine on which i'd edit video that would go on the web, (hence NOT HD), though it needs to be decent quality. And, the machine would need to be good for pixel and vector graphics creation, as well as Flash, which, i believe are less demanding.

thanks.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
May 09, 2011 May 09, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

raid or not is determined by your codecs and redundacy needs

EG: DV/HDV does not need raid for performance, nor would it benefit if you did raid but you may want it for redundacy (nothing beats an external back up regardless)

AVCHD: can squeak by without it but vastly better with. however going from 2 x 2 drive raid 0 to 2 x 4 drive raid 0 gains you nothing and is a waste (or 8 drive raid 3,5,6) with the later offering rundancy at least.

Red 4K  and uncomcompressed has to have raid and a big one.

so cant answer your question without knowing what codec

Scott

ADK

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
May 09, 2011 May 09, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

hi Scott. Thanks for your reply.

Maybe i should say a bit about myself in order to remove any expectation that i should in fact comprehend that reply, or to  save face (my own, of course), regarding my lack in hardware savvyness.

That is, i am struggling to understand your comments because i am quite devoid of technical/hardware experience and knowlege, possibly because of the type of video work that i've been doing, possibley because of Apple (: -  Macintosh doesn't tender much in terms of enabling one to specialize/or setup a machine; for a long while i was using Final Cut Pro/Studio, on a variety of Macs, shooting on a Sony Semi-Professional camera (bought in the year 2000,) and using a DSR-11 tape for digitizing the footage, to make 2-9 minute video art clips.

After that, i downgraded the quality of my output (because my DSR-11 broke down), so i was using an old digital Olypus camera (c-5050) which produces QuickTime files, editing those in Final Cut to make my little movies, which i would convert to flv (Flash video), to incorporate in interactive swf files (small-web-file that's exported via Flash -  for anyone who doesn't know).

At this time, i seek to build a robust machine, to handle commercial quality video output (ideally), along with my programming (Flash ActionScript) and designing aspirations (Illustrator graphics).

So, going over your reply:

if I understand correctly, you suggest that RAIDing benefits redundancy. Not sure what you mean by redundancy here, is it that during compression and export to movies, after editing a sequence, the files which are used in the edited sequence will maintain their quality - detail due to redundancy? And how does that relate to backing up data.

Please excuse my ineptitude - am quite aware of it here, my knowlege about RAIDing is new and my source is YouTube such as - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpvUQUIzNDA&feature=related

Following  Generic Guideline for Disk Setup  (http://forums.adobe.com/message/3663705#3663705)

it seems that RAID5 is ultimately better than RAID0, a discussion, by the way, that certainly pertains to the question of RAIDing at all, but seems to present so many threads of info and dilemma among the participants, that i keep losing focus, though it seems an productive source for me, in finalizing my decision about RAIDing or NOT.

Re: your comment on "Red 4K  and uncomcompressed" - again, sorry, no idea what that is, is that a codec?

And as for which codec i'm using, i hope by now you "see" that i'm unable to answer that. (I do NOT have a proper editing machine as yet.)

I would greatly appreciate your patience, as that of any other participant, in helping me educate sufficiently in order to decide on the components for the    new machine which i intend to build.

Thanks again,

best

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
May 10, 2011 May 10, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

HI,

"codec" is determined by what cam you are using. (also there is ways to upscale etc but that’s another discussion)

Are you still using the old Olympus? It uses motion jpeg and very small files at that.

No need for raid.

Redundancy: in a raid 3,5,6 a hard drive can die and you do not lose your files

In raid 0 you can lose your work

In raid 10 you are backed up as well but I don’t trust or like that raid.

Regardless of what raid you have its very prudent to have an external back up. Even with raid 6 (you can lose 2 hdds and not lose data)

Raid 0,10, 3, 5 ,6 (and others like raid 50) all increase speed where the more drives you have the better the speed gets.

But again if your codec/workflow does not need the speed you spend money for nothing..

This is probably the biggest "MYTH" perpetrated in this and other forums. The need for absurd raid 3,5,6 arrays.

For the average guy the only benefit is redundancy (back up) and at what price? A cheap external backup is far less costly.

Unless you buy a new cam you don’t need raid and if you do buy, it will most likely be an AVC variant that only needs 2 x 2 raid 0 (and ext back up)

(something you can add later) and no need for an expensive raid card either.

Hope that helps

Scott

ADK

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
May 11, 2011 May 11, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Scott.

So, from you i understand that the codec type determines if to RAID or NOT. And from Wikipedia, that codecs are devices or programs used for digitizing - converting/encoding media from one to another format, like when using a digital video cassette recording machine such as the Sony DSR-11, to get the footage on a tape (shot in a video camcorder,) into a computer in order to edit that footage.

With my Olympus there was no need for digitizing, as you said, the files are quite small, u simply drop them into Final Cut. Hence no Raiding?

In fact, i recently got a pocket sized camera - Sony Cyber-Shot, (lovely little thing) but have not edited footage shot with it. Can you help me find out which codec i'll be needing for that? I am using this camera a lot and no doubt will do so in future.

Nevertheless, if i did have a capable machine for editing video, i would likely go back to using my Sony TRV900 camcorder which demands digitizing (encoding) the media. Alternatively, i'd borrow a similar but more professional camcorder, or buy one sometime in the next 2 years. SO, i am considering this in deliberating the capacity of the new machine, RAIDing or not...

In any case, I didnt understan what you said AVC being a variant that only needs 2 x 2 raid 0 (and ext back up). And my concerns are deepening Re the way you describe 2 x 2 raid0. No idea what that means. Is that to do with disc setup, like having 4 relatively cheap hard discs, a Solid State Drive for software, and a RAID controller? which brings me back to my original question about which RAID controllers to look at.

Re the question of RAIDing in terms of backup or redundancy - i cant think beyond the term "redundancy" which you are  using synonymously with backup, and if u can refer me to some sources to learn about that i'd really appreciate it... (i do always backup media, but never used EDL lists - that's in Final Cut, not sure what the Premier equivalent)....

thanks for your patience,

best

MC

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
May 11, 2011 May 11, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi,

Your old cam is DV only and does not require raid, no cam you have requires raid at all.

Again if you buy a new cam that most likely will require raid. (you can add the 2 extra drives later)

If you back up your work you don’t require raid 3,5,6. Ideally you back up to a NAS that is raid 5 but that’s a luxury not all have.

Yes redundancy means back-up in a sense or security in that a drive can die without losing data again anyone with smarts still backs up their raid to external.

For now you do not need raid and I don’t see you requiring any large raids later. (in the near future)

So you don’t need a raid controller period.

If you end up needing the 2 sets raid 0 the onboard controller is more than fine.

SSD is complete waste of money for an OS or anything else unless doing animation.

Flash would not be considered animation.

So

OS/programs drive

Media drive

Export drive

External back up

That’s it don’t complicate it or waste money.

Put that money toward a decent cam....

Scott

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Beginner ,
May 11, 2011 May 11, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

RAID = Redundant Array of Independent Disks.  Check out Wikipedia's descriptions - they are not comprehensive, but decent to get a sense of the redundancy (and therefore data security) and/or access speed aspects that different types of a RAID configurations offer.  Keep in mind that the array of disks appears as a "single disk" to the operating system, so whereas there may be two or more independent disks in the array, it will "appear" to be a single disk (e.g., "D" or "E" etc.)  In some types of RAID configurations, the data redundancy (security) is within the array itself so that if one of the component disks crashes, the stored data is safe and can be accessed.

On the other hand, a RAID offers no real "backup" protection - if your power supply throws a spark and your computer, case and RAID drives all burn up, any redundancy in the RAID won't be of any real use; however, a backup image of the disk(s) that is stored offsite would be.  That's why redundancy and backup strategies are treated separately.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jul 29, 2011 Jul 29, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Greetings, Harm ~

I'm building a new external RAID with an Areca 1880ix-12 and a Sans Digital TR8X.

People keep telling me RAID 3 is obsolete, and I should use RAID 5. I feel like RAID 3 makes more sense, so I'm sticking with it.

My questions are:

1. If I'm using six 2TB WD2003FYYS (RE4) discs, does it matter if I choose RAID 3 or RAID 30? I see a lot have chosen 6x2TB RAID 3, and I wonder why they don't set up 3x2TB RAID 3 + 3x2TB RAID 3 in a RAID 0 = RAID 30. I'm guessing RAID 30 is better for more than six discs, since RAID 3 requires a minimum of three discs.

2. Does having an extra disc in the tower standing by as a hot-swap in case of failure shorten the life of that disc significantly, given it's only spinning and not working? Having eight bays in the TR8X, I will have eight of those WD2003FYYS discs on hand at all times in case of a drive failure, leaving one of the two extra drives in the tower as a hot-swap and the other in its box to minimize wear, and I'm wondering if I should just leave both extras in, or maybe even use 7x2TB RAID 3 instead.

Thank you!

~ Marcus

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jul 29, 2011 Jul 29, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Marcus,

Raid3 is better suited for video work with large files, raid5 is better suited for high IOPS and many small files. Addditionally raid3 is more efficient in rebuilding an array than raid5, because of the dedicated parity versus the distributed parity.

1. Yes it makes a difference. Assuming a transfer rate of 100 MB/s for each disk, a 6 disk raid30 will have a sustained transfer rate of around 340 MB/s and have a net storage capacity of 8 TB. A 6 disk raid3 will have a sustained transfer rate of around 425 MB/s and a net storage capacity of 10 TB.

2. I see no use for a hot swap disk in your chassis, unless you intended a hot-spare. That makes sense. I would not worry about the wear and tear of a spinning drive. With the MTBF of modern disks, the long guarantees up to 5 years they can easily handle that.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Enthusiast ,
Jul 29, 2011 Jul 29, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hey Harm,

ever wonder wny NONE of the video raid drive manufacturers offer raid 3?

rebuild times? ok

http://forums.adobe.com/message/3461646#3461646

Scott

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jul 29, 2011 Jul 29, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Scott,

Simple matter of marketsize. Just PR CS5 is too much of a niche market. Websites, webshops, news sites, multi-user environments are way, way bigger markets. The entrance barrier with an established market leader as Areca solidly in the lead, it makes no economic sense to enter the raid3 market.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Guide ,
Jul 29, 2011 Jul 29, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Marcus,

I've always been a bit curious about the Sans Digital TR8X unit that you are going with, and I have a few questions - two of which you may not be able to answer just yet:

1) What connector / method are you using to convert one of your internal SFF-8087 connectors to work with the TR8X's SFF-8088 cables?

2) How quiet / noisy is it?

3) What are the max. temps. tlhat your 2TB's see when working hard; say, after a 1 hour render?

I have a few suggestions to pass along too that has been mentioned before on this forum, I think by Bill Gehrke for setting up a new RAID:

- run a full and write pass on each drive individually to make sure each is working properly; I like HD Tune Pro with these settings: (Partial test, accurate, 2MB block size). This will flush out any weak drive BEFORE the time and effort has be done to build and load the full RAID array

- configure your planned RAID as RAID 0 and put it to work with some video files; I like to use PPBM5 at this stage. Why do this? Because it only takes a few minutes to do (RAID 0 builds instantly) and you will be able to test all aspects of your build (connectors, power supply, drive spin up times, drive sleeping if you will be doing that - I do on my Areca w/ WD RE3, WD Blacks, Hitachi 3TB 7k3000's, and Hitachi 1TB 7k1000.C's now, controller card under stress, etc.)

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jul 29, 2011 Jul 29, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

JEShort01 wrote::

1) What connector / method are you using to convert one of your internal SFF-8087 connectors to work with the TR8X's SFF-8088 cables?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Jim is this what you are looking for?

If not these people at PCPitStop can problably come up with it   And the ARC-1880ix-12 has an external SFF-8088 connector

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Guide ,
Jul 29, 2011 Jul 29, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Bill,

I'm aware that the IX-12 has one 8088 external connector, but Marcus will need two for his Sans Digital tower. That cable you point to (expensive cable too BTW!) would indeed do the job, thanks for the link. It would need to connect to an internal port on the Areca and then pass through the PC case somewhere to get to the Sans Digital device.

When I was thinking about doing something like this a year ago, I figured that a bracket like this (yes, I've ordered from PC PitStop before) could work too:

http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sas_cables_adapters/AD8788-1.asp

This way, all cables could be disconnected (cleaner), and the two SFF-8088 cables (included with the Sans Digital unit) connecting the PC to the Sans Digital tower would be identical; I was however concerned about having all those connections for RAID that you want to be reliable (from internal Areca connection: 8087 to 8087 cable, 8087/8088 bracket, 8088/8088 external cable, 8088/??? connection on the back of the Sans Digital, Sans Digital backplane, connect to the drives).

As with many choices we have to make there are compromises!

So, still curious, what are you planning Marcus?

Jim

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jul 29, 2011 Jul 29, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Jim ~

My plan was to use the internal->external cable from PC-PitStop, but now that you've shown me that bracket adapter, I'll have to consider that as well. It would be nice to have a cleaner look. I was a bit concerned with how using one internal and one external cable might perform together, but my thought was that if there was an issue with it, I'd just use two internal ->external cables instead of using the external at all. I had considered using the 1880x card with two external ports, but chose the ix12 since it seems more capable of expansion, should I need that. (I hope not! This one is costing me enough as it is.)

Harm ~

Yes, you're right... I meant hot-spare, not hot-swap. I was sleepy. (:

Thank you for clearing up the RAID3 vs RAID30 question. I tried to do all my homework and research all this, yet I still get confused along the way. I read that a RAID30 is faster due to the stripe, but you indicate that the RAID3 has faster throughput.

After some thought, I think I understand now - - a RAID3 will use only one parity disk whereas a RAID30 will have two parity disks, thus the decreased capacity and throughput on the 30. For some reason, I figured for every three disks in a RAID3, a parity disk would be built. Surely you couldn't have, say, ten disks in RAID3 with nine being used for data and only one for parity. At some point more parity is needed, and somewhere there is an optimal number of disks to use in RAID3. In that way, I can see using more than six disks in a RAID30 to better utilize that parity issue. Do I have it right?

Perhaps it's this parity problem that perpetuates the idea that RAID3 is obsolete. My confusion tempts me to avoid it and just go with RAID5, but your performance numbers seem solid, so I have to at least give it a try.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Aug 01, 2011 Aug 01, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Jim ~

I've been warned against using adapters, so I'm just going to use the 1m SFF-8087 to SFF-8088 cable through an uncovered PCI slot.

Can't wait to get all my parts in and test it out!

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Aug 08, 2011 Aug 08, 2011

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Jim - You had asked:

"I've  always been a bit curious about the Sans Digital TR8X unit that you are  going with, and I have a few questions - two of which you may not be  able to answer just yet:

1) What connector / method are you using  to convert one of your internal SFF-8087 connectors to work with the  TR8X's SFF-8088 cables?

2) How quiet / noisy is it?

3) What are the max. temps. tlhat your 2TB's see when working hard; say, after a 1 hour render?"

Answers:

1) SFF-8087 to SFF-8088 cables from PC PitStop, not the adapters.

2) It's a bit noisier than the Mac Pro itself at idle, but a lot quieter than the Mac Pro when all its fans kick up. I like how quiet it is.

3) Toward the end of hours of constant disk activity (due to a Check Volume Set operation) the highest disk temp was 42 deg C. The ambient room temperature was 80 deg F indicated on a wall-mounted thermometer. Here's a RAID hardware monitor dump:

CPU Temperature59 ºC
Controller Temp.43 ºC
12V12.038 V
5V5.053 V
3.3V3.312 V
DDR-II +1.8V1.840 V
CPU    +1.8V1.856 V
CPU    +1.2V1.264 V
CPU    +1.0V1.056 V
DDR-II +0.9V0.928 V
Battery StatusCharged(100%)

Here's that hottest drive status (it dropped one degree):

Device TypeSATA(5001B4DB0091E01E)
Device LocationEnclosure#2 SLOT 03
Model NameWDC WD2003FYYS-02W0B0
Serial NumberWD-WMAY02014542
Firmware Rev.01.01D01
Disk Capacity2000.4GB
Current SATA ModeSATA300+NCQ(Depth32)
Supported SATA ModeSATA300+NCQ(Depth32)
Error Recovery Control (Read/Write)7.0/7.0 Seconds
Disk APM SupportYes
Device StateNormal
Timeout Count0
Media Error Count0
Device Temperature41 ºC
SMART Read Error Rate200(51)
SMART Spinup Time253(21)
SMART Reallocation Count200(140)
SMART Seek Error Rate200(0)
SMART Spinup Retries100(0)
SMART Calibration Retries100(0)

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines