Hook, Line and Sinker

[Steven L. Gotz]

I have bought into this photography thing hook, line and sinker. Can you believe this?

I went out and bought a new laptop that would fit into my new camera bag. How sick is that?

The bag maker said that it could hold a laptop with a 15.3" screen. Unfortunately laptops have 15.6" screens. Even the 14" screens would not fit because the pocket, while wide enough, is not deep enough.

Oh well, now I have Windows 8 to play with, and a touch screen to boot. So I guess I need to try writing touch apps since the Adobe software for that comes with the Creative Cloud.

[the_wine_snob]

Well, with the exception of ONE element, the rest is a quick look at a common retouching step, like softening skin texture, and blemish removal. I usually to a little bit of touchup to teeth too.

If nothing else, I DID get a rise out of both you and Steve, so I achieved an end to the work...

Good luck, and I agree with Steven - just wait until you being shooting RAW, and learn how to process that. Amazing.

Hunt

[able123]

Well, I'll be surprised if I like shooting raw, but who knows.. it might be really cool.

I shot film for so long, where everything was my choice to begin with, based on what I pre-visualized, that it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me... but honestly, as you know, I haven't been able to shoot it and see it on the mouse. So I remain doubtful but open minded.

I will give you an example of shooting 'raw' in the pro world of movie making. Just for the heck of it.

A DP ( Mike X ) on a certain episodic TV series was yappin with me about shooting some form of raw ( actually a log c alexa thing I think ).. and this is like really big budget episodic stuff, not reality tv etc.

Sooo, anyway, as some of you know there is the use of ' smoke ' on some sets to get a specific " LOOK" in the camera. The audience will not know smoke was used in general. Most people would not know it was used. But those who work in the industry generally can see when it is used or not... and I don't mean the heavy handed smoke where you see 'sunbeams' coming into the sunlit 'window' from sunlight outside. I mean the basic atmospheric 'smoke'.. which softens the overall image, but is not THICK.

Anyway, the DP was telling me how he had been having a really really hard time with the post house ( editors ) because shooting raw ( or some form of raw ) EVEN WITH INSTRUCTIONS re: the smoke, was getting basically cancelled OUT by the post house.

In other words, the DP was going for a look with smoke on set, and the post house was killing it. Now this gets into a complex issue re: DP relationship with the post guys etc and when it's film ( with color swatches and all that stuff used to lock in the looks ) there is a great chance that the smoke will do what you want. With raw it is often screwed because now you got other people looking at scopes etc and what you wanted as the DP is getting blown away by post.

The upshot of my conversation with the DP , was that he told me " I'm not using smoke anymore ".

He gave up going for the look he wanted. It wasn't worth the hassle of talking to some post guy on phone half a continent away... about what he wanted. This gets complicated re: relationships with producers, etc.

But the bottom line, yipee its raw, anyone can do what they want ! YIPEEE !

ITS BEER THIRTY !

[the_wine_snob]

Well, I'll be surprised if I like shooting raw, but who knows..

Rod,

You go back to the days of the wet darkroom. Think of Camera RAW in just those terms, with a full custom B/W and E-6 line at your disposal, and the ability to "process" each frame, as you so desire. The big beneift is that your fingernails will not be stained by hypo, and you do not have to breath stop bath all evening!

Wait until you try it. I think that you will soon be hooked.

I cannot imagine how quickly a post house would loose work, if they managed to cancel out Ridley Scott's smoke.

Hunt

[Steven L. Gotz]

Bill said it well.

The problem with a JPG is that it is compressed and only shows you what the settings in the camera want you to see.

Think of the JPG as the camera adjusting the RAW image for you.  You can do a better job than the camera. Or, will be able to eventually.

You will see. Just practice using Bridge for everything because a PC can't thumbnail a RAW file like a Mac can.  But Bridge does it just fine.

[the_wine_snob]

Also, I believe that Rod is thinking in terms of Video RAW, and not Camera RAW. They are two totally different creatures, but with some similarities.

For Still Images, I like to think of Camera RAW as "exposed film," which has not been processed yet. It is actually a step beyond, but there is not a fully analogous example from the days of film - sort of a hybrid.

With Camera RAW, one is not yet doing the full manipulations, as they would in Photoshop, but rather like running a custom development line (B/W, or E-6), right from their desktop. Then, if required, Photoshop steps up to carry on with the processing.

With digital Video RAW, it is a bit different, and thinking in those terms will likely be confusing, and counter-intuitive. This is a prospect that should not be over-thought, but experienced, and explored.

I think of JPEG as the "anti-Christ," and shun it, unless a client (do not have those anymore) demands it. Given my desires, I would never see another JPEG, other than downloading some image via Google, to post in The Video Lounge. Heck, if I have to do any editing there, I use PNG for posting.

Hunt

[the_wine_snob]

Steven,

Some of your Camea RAW examples in this thread are very good examples, but for the uninitiated, they might not connect. They are like an exposed frame, but one that has not been fully "developed" yet. It takes but a moment to do that "processing," and the end results are worth the efforts. Also, with ACR, one can establish presets for their cameras, their lenses, and even "types" of images, so it becomes a "one-click" workflow, but one that can always be manipulated again later, if desired.

Perhaps a better analogy for Rod would be shooting negative stock (Camera RAW), where the lab can then produce work prints, as desired. Not exact, but somewhat similar.

Hunt

[Steven L. Gotz]

I can't wait until he tries it. There is going to be a rather loud "Eureka!" resounding through this thread.

Equating it to anything else if difficult. It is almost like the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:0. Or the difference between the video out of the camera, vs the video you finally put on YouTube. From 50Mb/s to 5Mb/s - there is loss. It is better to edit the image before the loss than after.

He will be buying one of these shirts eventually... (All of the images I post directly are PNG. I set my screen capture program to save them that way.)

[able123]

hmmm... okay, I get it...sorta.. the idea of the neg. stock sorta gets me closer to what you're talking about. Except I suppose the kelvin is also whatever you want ? I'll explore it definitely when I get cs6 loaded on the new computer I don't have.

after I finish moving this interminable amount of JUNK ...geez... I really dont wanna move anymore stuff.

[Steven L. Gotz]

Kelvin is the first adjustment on the page of adjustments.

[able123]

yikes.

okay, you got me convinced to check it out.

I'm inches away from being totally "moved" and then facing the " get new computer " stage of this adventure. People have been telling me I can keep the mouse through some sorta network with a router , which would be nice since the mouse has tons of nice stuff on it.

But new computer won't have anything on it but CS6 and I should be able to use bridge and see raw stuff etc.

Now if I can only fix my eyes, which are partially color blind...

[Steven L. Gotz]

Now if I can only fix my eyes, which are partially color blind...

OK, this is only half joking.

You could decide to specialize in Black and White or Sepia toned photographs.

Develop a style that uses low saturation of colors in Premiere Pro.

Become known as the "color blind friendly" video guy.

Or, when you work on photos, do it one channel at a time. Since each channel is really a grayscale representations of color, it might be easier for you to work with. Seriously.

[able123]

maybe I could muddle along and just claim I have an post impressionist attitude toward color ?

I mean, what could be worse than Cezzanne ?

[Steven L. Gotz]

Exactly! There are lots of people who consider that fine art. I just don't know why but it is not for me to judge other people's preferences.

Just start your own movement. Perhaps leave out a different color channel for each act in your film.

[the_wine_snob]

Now you're talking!

Go with your strengths, and just pass over any weaknesses.

Good luck,

Hunt

[able123]

Im gonna ask those I interview on camera to just wear solid black, white or grey clothing, no stripes or checks etc. I have no clue what I'll do to get skin tone but maybe I can hold up a picture from Joe's comic recently posted ?

I was gonna ask Joe to do a comic depicting something about the Hotel business around Lake Minnetonka in the late 1800's and early 1900's. They often advertised to prospective guests ( and these were high end hotels , sorta like the hamptons of the midwest at the time, or that place on the jersey shore ).... and part of the fun offered was to dig up ancient indian burial mounds to find trinkets and artifacts. I could see some woman in a Victorian outfit digging in the dirt and discarding the occassional shin bone, maybe throwing it over her shoulder as she continued to dig for some treasure ?

All kidding aside, I think I'll leave that whole subject alone.

Anyway, luckily most of the old photos and maps and illustrations from then are black and white ....

[Steven L. Gotz]

So, if the stuff you want to integrate is B&W, and the subject is about the past, it might be totally appropriate for everything else to be B&W while discussing that period of time. Almost everything.

Maybe, for fun, all of the video could have one color remaining in one object. Kind of like you had a signature. Perhaps something red. Or blue. Or even a different color for each interview. Red for women and Blue for men? 

You could easily choose something - maybe a little color in one of the shadows created by a gobo - that could become your signature. Make sense?

Perhaps Sepia toned would work better than B&W. You could easily change the old photos and maps over to Sepia as well.

Just a thought.

[able123]

okay...

What's red look like ?

How about Blue ? What's THAT look like ?

I know the sky is supposed to be blue but if I can't see blue it might was well be green for all I care...although I don't wish that cause I know a lot of people would be really upset.

I think people put blue gels on lights in live theatre productions when it's supposed to be night time...cause blue always reminds people of night time.

Also I think some really famous psychologist said that " Creamy colors make passengers of airplanes really happy ! "  Nobody knows why this is true, but obviously from the never ending increase in air travel it is very effective.

Anyway, I digress..

Yes, good ideas Steve.. I'll give that sepia stuff some thought, and the B&W too. Might be a good thing to at least look at and see how I feel about it. Thanks.

As a sort of 'thought' to bounce back ... one does have to be careful about looking for 'signature' type things.. or "techniques"... in terms of self identification with art work. Typically technique and " style " comes out of a large body of work ...it evolves from the work... It doesn't start at the beginning in most cases of successful art works. This is something to be wary of ...

In other words, I suppose to some extent , a love of something (and subsequent expression of that love ) ... ( love can also be fascination, imagination, etc ) usually is primary in getting the work created.... and it's only after doing that for a long time that some critic notices that , " Hey, I just noticed Rod always makes his skies green. I guess you could say that's his style ".

It's like raining cats and dogs and lightning and thunder and my whole plan to move last load today has flown out the window !!!!

[Steven L. Gotz]

I understand, and I agree. However, when starting a project, one must have an idea of the overall feel. The overall look of the project.

Once upon a time, long ago in the days of film , one would pick a certain film stock to achieve a goal, right? I have no personal experience with this like you do, but I read a little about it. Only a little though.

So, in this case, you take the resources you collect, and rather than have them look out of place compared to oddly colored new video , you merely make the video more closely match the existing resources. That avoids the jarring back and forth between color and monochrome.

A different solution to ease the transitions might merely be to somewhat desaturate the video a bit. Not all the way to monochome, but just enough to ease the transitions.

The thought that interviews might benefit from a little color in the shadows, and that might turn out to be your signature, is purely something that you would have to decide for yourself. If it happened to work out that way, so be it.

[the_wine_snob]

Also I think some really famous psychologist said that " Creamy colors make passengers of airplanes really happy ! "  Nobody knows why this is true, but obviously from the never ending increase in air travel it is very effective.

Boeing is certainly into this concept. Besides the problem-riddled 787 Dreamliner, they are using that mood lighting in their 737-900 ER's (maybe in other 737-900's, but I have only flown the 737-800's w/ no mood lighting, and the 737-900 ER's w/ mood lighting). We flew a 737-900 ER from HON to SFO, and it WAS nice. Never thought that I would say that about a non-jumbo flight from HON to the Mainland, but it was just fine - maybe because of the mood lighting?

Hunt

[the_wine_snob]

Steven,

Just like with the choice of film stock and processing of that stock, many DP's are opting for the "look" of certain video cameras, even though they ARE shooting digital, and doing the Grading in post, they feel that some cameras have a better "look" for their projects.

Personally, I would have thought that beyond the choice of lenses, and then the general capabilities of a digital camera (say low-light performance), things would not be so involved, but obviously I am wrong. A lot of effort is being put into choosing just the right digital camera, for the movie.

Hunt

[Steven L. Gotz]

maybe because of the mood lighting?

Or maybe because you were particularly mellow from having been in paradise?

We would retire on Kauai if it were not for the fact that my wife and I are both from large families. The cost of the airfare - we are too tall to fly coach comfortably except in exit rows - would be prohibitive considering all of the weddings, Bar Mitzvah's, and other family gatherings where we would be expected to attend.

[Steven L. Gotz]

choosing just the right digital camera

Yikes! That is very interesting.

My dream is to one day find a story that I want to present to the world and then gather the resources to do it. Maybe when my niece graduates film school, I could partner with her.

It is wonderful to know that I can rent just about any camera I want, and get the exact look I want. Of course, I would need a "real" DP to help me choose anyway, but it is an interesting thought that different cameras provide different looks. Maybe my niece will be qualified to help pick a look when the time comes.

I just noticed that this will be post #447 - we have really beat the heck out of this topic haven't we? Yet it still seems to stay somewhat on topic somehow. The original idea being that we go all in to get the results we want.

[the_wine_snob]

There might be a lot of replies, but then several inter-related subjects HAVE been covered. To me, it has been worth it - almost every reply (with the exception of a few times, that I could not resist introducing a touch of thread-drift).

Hunt

[able123]

I'm back from food store. Thank Goodness, I now have milk and coffee and eggs and some basic food items in the refrigerator. PLUS BEER !

ITS BEER THIRTY ! YIPEE !

I'm not going to go to the other apt. today to move NOTHIN ! YIPEE !!!!

( honestly, my legs feel a bit sore from all the walking with stuff for the past week LOL )

You should see the walk in closet here.. maybe I'll shoot it later with the nikon and show you.

It's like a solid MASS of STUFF ...and I have no clue what is WHERE as it had to be packed as stuff came in.. what a mess !

About 2 years ago a buddy ( DP on some law and order stuff ) said to me that all the digital 'film' cameras had different looks to them, not cause of the glass, but the chips etc. During that conversation he was also telling me that he doesn't really light with a meter much anymore, but instead goes for relationships and then just makes sure he doesnt blow out the whites... better to underexpose a little than to overexpose.

But you gotta take that with a grain of salt, meter stuff.. cause he's been doing it so long he knows how much overall ( sorta what you might call 'ambient' ) light he needs for the base dark areas..just by looking with eyes.

I just bought a nice big thick Rib Eye ( it was $15 something per pound ). In Kaui that would be going for about $ 30 per pound probably !

It's a little overdo but I will try to find some way to digress into Rodan or Godzilla or Snakes at some point.. just to keep from getting too fixated and narrow minded.

[Steven L. Gotz]

That is a LOT of money for a steak from a grocery store.

I just found a sale at Safeway here in the Bay Area for large packages that came to only $5.99 per pound. I bought 10 pounds, and grilled them four at a time. I eat one and slice up the other three to be used for my lunches.

A few years back I developed a taste for cold steak as a snack or as part of a lunch. It makes life a lot easier because my current diet (lost 25 pounds since April 9th) is chocolate Protein drinks from Costco and meat for lunch. Four eggs with only one yolk for breakfast in an omelette with bell peppers, onions and muchrooms. Dinner is either steak or chicken and salad. Spluge now and then with shrimp on the salad. Lots of sugar free jello (which I like as well as the regular stuff) and now and then a Weight Watcher's chocolate chip cookie.

Basically a man's diet. I could have a beer if I wanted to give up the cookie and some of the steak, but so far it hasn't been a trade-off I want to make.

Boy oh boy do I miss pizza! I may have to shop for lo-cal pizza soon.

As for underexposing, I heard that was the thing to do and the majority of my shots show to be ever so slightly darker on the meter. Because it really is easier to bring out the shadows than to try and recover blown out whites.

Now, if I was shooting with speedlights, I would have to get a meter I think.