Linux Version?

Community Beginner ,
Jun 07, 2010 Jun 07, 2010

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Will there ever be a Linux version (preferably Ubuntu/Debian Linux since that's the most popular) of Adobe Premiere Pro, and also the entire Production Premium Creative Suite?  At my workplace I already made the decision to go on the PC platform for our edit systems, and am regretting it because Prod. Prem. CS4 is ALWAYS crashing (particularly Premiere and After Effects) on the Windows XP OS (also using Matrox Axio LE hardware).  My co-worker wanted us to go with the Mac platform (when we were pitching considerations to our boss), but I didn't listen.  So it doesn't look like we'll be able to justify a whole other hardware investment, so if Adobe's CSPP were to be ported to Linux, that would be a win-win (no pun intended with Win-dows!) for us where we would just buy the Linux version of the software.  I know no OS is perfect, but from my experience Windows is a horrible OS that should die.  When it crashes, it crashes nasty - it hangs for a long time before quitting.  Linux, from my experience, performs much faster on the same machine, and when it crashes (less often), it lets you quit immediately.

As for the argument I've read that it's not worth it for Adobe to port their programs to Linux because it has "only 1% market share", where does that info come from?  How can you accurately measure Linux's usage when it's a free download and there are so many distributions of it?  Besides, it's a Catch-22: if Linux is so small in market share, it's because (1) there aren't a whole lot of mainstream applications that run natively on it (as for Wine, forget it, I've had horrible problems with it), and (2) Linux isn't pre-installed on a lot of machines for the majority of computer users, who are relatively non-technical.  No. 2 is something companies like Canonical is trying to change by arranging partnerships with Dell, HP, etc.  No. 1 is something that guys like you, Adobe, can change.  (How much can the development costs be, anyway?  You already make Linux versions of Flash player and Acrobat Reader.  All these programs are written in C or Java, right?)  Believe me, people will buy a Linux Production Premium.  We'll buy 3 licenses up front.

Dale Cornibe

Electronic Media/Video Producer

Travis County Media

Austin, Texas

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LEGEND ,
Jun 07, 2010 Jun 07, 2010

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You make very good arguments, especially the chicken-or-the-egg scenario.

If the amount of resources that the porting to OSX of CS3 took is any indication, it will take an entire development cycle to port any single app, much less the suite, to Linux.  If the port to Linux is the only feature of a new release, it is likely that sales of that version will plummet significantly compared to other cycles.  Adobe would have to be willing to eat the costs in hopes of future returns.  That, in turn, might make the shareholders nervous and unhappy.  For a publicly-traded corporation, that situation is a big no-no.

If you can make the business case for porting to Linux in language that investors and shareholders can understand, then maybe it will come to pass.  Until that time, well...you know.

-Jeff

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 08, 2010 Jun 08, 2010

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Hey Adobe,

If you're reading this, and you don't believe there's demand for a Linux version, try this just for starters:

http://getsatisfaction.com/adobe/topics/produce_creative_suite_for_linux

Dale

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Jun 08, 2010 Jun 08, 2010

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OK, that's an interesting idea. Jeff's comment, though, covers most of it:

If the amount of resources that the porting to OSX of CS3 took is any indication, it will take an entire development cycle to port any single app, much less the suite, to Linux.  If the port to Linux is the only feature of a new release, it is likely that sales of that version will plummet significantly compared to other cycles.  Adobe would have to be willing to eat the costs in hopes of future returns.  That, in turn, might make the shareholders nervous and unhappy.  For a publicly-traded corporation, that situation is a big no-no.

That would require 35% more engineers or probably double the time. Maybe both. Then we're looking at capital expenditure costs, mostly in the form of machines to develop and test on. Then we have to port the whole thing. No, sir. We have our hands full as it is.

As for the argument I've read that it's not worth it for Adobe to port their programs to Linux because it has "only 1% market share", where does that info come from?  How can you accurately measure Linux's usage when it's a free download and there are so many distributions of it?

How do you measure it? We do it with marketing research, which is the only way we have. The demand for CS5 for Linux is unbelievably low compared to Mac and Windows. Mac may have something like 8% of the PC market, but it has closer to half of the creative market. Linux, not so much.

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 09, 2010 Jun 09, 2010

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OK, Jeremy, fair enough.  I take it you work for Adobe since your response seems so authoritative.

Tell me this, then: Can you get the Windoze version (particularly Premiere Pro CS4 and After Effects CS4) to stop crashing like a bitch!?  When I built our systems, I carefully chose all the compatible components:

- Dell Precision Workstation T7400, with Intel Quad Core E5405 2.00 GHz processor

- 4GB RAM (800 MHz bus speed), Crucial brand

- Windows XP 32-bit, Service Pack 3

- NVIDIA Quadro FX 4600 (one of your certified cards) - latest drivers

- Matrox Axio LE card and breakout box - latest version of the software

- All Adobe Production Premium software updated to latest versions

- Media drive is a G-RAID 1TB 2-drive external hard drive, connected via Firewire 800 to a Star Tech PCI card

Every day I'm still getting crashes and hangs (the old "Not Responding" bit)...where it takes forever to FINISH crashing, hence, lost productivity.  It usually happens when I *dare* try to play back or scrub video in either the timeline or especially the source window.  Sometimes it crashes when I *dare* try to create a title.

I know no OS is perfect, but dammit, I've learned from personal experience that ON THE SAME MACHINE Linux runs a HELL of a lot better than Windork.  And the FEW times it crashes it gets out of it immediately.  DAMN your scientific market research.  It's a chicken-and-egg situation.  Maybe you should conduct a survey of your current registered Windows users and see how many would switch to Linux if they were given a choice for a Linux-based Adobe CS package.

Also, back in the day, when you first started up and wrote the first versions of the software, how did you really know Windows or Mac would take off?  Personal computers were new, so everything was pretty much based on risk.  You know, the way companies USED to be run, with balls.  Today every company, especially corporations, wants a guarantee or a bailout.  You give Windows users a choice to switch platforms without switching their hardware (i.e., PC to more expensive Mac), and you WILL get sales of Linux versions.  People want *stability*, and all you guys ever do with each new version is add more bells and whistles, which contribute to the instability.  Especially on a junk operating system like Windows has always been.

Now, if you can convince me that Windows 7 64-bit is more stable than XP, I might go in that direction, but I fear my suspicions are correct that Windows will always be Windows...

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LEGEND ,
Jun 09, 2010 Jun 09, 2010

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Now, if you can convince me that Windows 7 64-bit is more stable than XP, I might go in that direction, but I fear my suspicions are correct that Windows will always be Windows..

FWIW, I never had one single BSOD on Vista Business 64 during the year that I used Vista, running the CS3 and the CS4 suites.  I've had exactly 2 BSODs on Win7 x64 in the last 6 months.  They both came after I installed the new, free Matrox codecs.  The codecs triggered the BSODs in my updated and current nVidia drivers.  Those codecs also slowed the launch and shutdown of any program that could access VFW codecs down to a crawl, including Pr.  I uninstalled the codecs, and have been speedy and crash-free since.  Caveat: I don't have an average system.  Dual quad-core Xeons and 16 GB of RAM.  2x 2-disc RAID0s for media and render drives.  Running out of resources or disc space is not an issue for me, where it might be an issue for others.

Matrox Axio LE card and breakout box - latest version of the software

Reference my Matrox experience above.  That may well be the source of your problems.  I'm not being snarky.  I'm just speaking from personal experience and using the reported experiences of others on this forum.

Sometimes it crashes when I *dare* try to create a title

I had this problem with CS3, not so much with CS4.  A bad font was to blame.  In my case, the culprit was the Deja Vu font that was installed by OpenOffice.

-Jeff

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LEGEND ,
Jun 09, 2010 Jun 09, 2010

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Also, just curious:

If in your opinion Windows is and always has been a junk OS, why haven't you switched to OSX before now?  Why are you still running Windows?  OSX is Unix-based, which is a heck of a lot closer to Linux than Windows.  Surely there's some extra stability to be found there?  Especially with the tighter hardware control that Apple imposes on Mac systems.

-Jeff

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Jun 09, 2010 Jun 09, 2010

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Maybe you should conduct a survey of your current registered Windows users and see how many would switch to Linux if they were given a choice for a Linux-based Adobe CS package.

Well, we can start that here.

Anybody?

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Community Expert ,
Jun 09, 2010 Jun 09, 2010

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jeremy d. wrote:

Maybe you should conduct a survey of your current registered Windows users and see how many would switch to Linux if they were given a choice for a Linux-based Adobe CS package.

Well, we can start that here.

Anybody?

My 1st computer was an Apple IIe but I switched to a PC clone for database software (dBase III) and a compiler (Clipper) that were simply not available anywhere in the Apple/Mac arena

I now have Win7 64bit Pro and CS5 Master Collection (also MS Office 2007 and several other Windows programs)

There is NO way I need or want to invest in an entirely new set of programs

Based on market share, and from what I've read about the mindset of Linux users who look for open source programs, I think it would be a total waste of time for Adobe to try and port CS5 to Linux (the part about "free software" mindset may be wrong, but it's what I've read)

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LEGEND ,
Jun 09, 2010 Jun 09, 2010

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Well, my XP-Pro systems are still working great, and with my CS2 Production Studio products are excellent. Other than a PSU that went south (still under warranty), I have not had one BSOD.

The next step will be to Win7, within a quarter or two, and all of the reports into me from folk using PrPro CS4 & CS5 indicate happiness. I will miss Vista entirely, but think that is a good thing.

Just my personal observations,

Hunt

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LEGEND ,
Jun 15, 2010 Jun 15, 2010

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Well, we can start that here.

Anybody?

I wouldn't.

While I used to be as much a windoze hater as the OP, that opinion was largely based on Windows 98, which was so bad that I went to a Linux/98 dual-boot for a few years.  (Some things you just need Windows for, cause wine really does suck.)

Windows XP solved a LOT of the problems that 98 had, so I eventually dropped Linux and went XP solo.

In my experience (coming in after SP1), Vista was 10 times better than XP was.

And 7 is even better.

Like it or not, the world is Windows.  And Windows 7 is a very nice, very stable OS.

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 20, 2010 Jun 20, 2010

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Yes. (at the moment) the mainstream world is mostly Windows....

And this situation will keep being like this as long as software vendors that hold industry standards (Adobe in our case) fear to expand to new technologies for the sake of the shareholder's statistics.

Adobe supporting Linux (or rather I should say "going inter-operable") is without doubt a good step, but only on the long-term... and long-term has never looked nice for the share holders which do not understand the nature of computing as IT people do.

That is one of the down-side characteristics that we find in big companies (like Adobe in our case).

Fear of progressive decision making.

And Linux has proven that it is actually the most unlimited, promising, progressive OS out there, and that is due to it's open source nature.

This "fear of progress" characteristic is one of the major factors that keeps a company in an "idle", sustainable position in its market area... Until a newcomer arrives to stir the waters... and when that happens it would be too late, let's say, to "save the ship".

There are many software developers out there that can produce code that can equal the features of Adobe's software.

Creative Suite can stop being the Holy Grail from one day to another if a bunch of software developers decide to push out a product that actually follows the open-source OS "progress", minimizes the user's expenses and counters Adobe's product capabilities.

We've seen many examples of the "newcomer's arrival" (as I mention above) mostly in the enterprise IT areas (it-infrastructure, VOIP, server side applications hosting and development, databases ........)  where open-source systems took over the "throne" from well established closed source systems that failed to realize that Unix based OS's (mostly Linux and BSD) where the "progressive choice".

On the normal consumer side of things, a very good example is Google's Android. Android has become the new "Hype" of mobile OS's in less than a year and there's no doubt that it will dominate the market in the very near future. Why?... It uses a Linux Kernel. It's based on open-source standards. It does not depend on other companies such as Apple or MS to survive. It's is inter-operable.

Now (the almost dominant on the server-side) Linux OS is making first steps towards mainstream professional workstation computing, Offering limitless possibilities for anyone that is willing to use it and at almost no cost. For any product that is not supporting Linux, the open source community, or Linux supporting "new comer" vendors can, (and will...) push out alternatives. If this happens then it would be too late to "save the ship" for companies that where paying attention only to their short-term objectives.

If you (by reading this post) think that I'm amplifying the "Linux support hype", I'm NOT. I've put my hands at almost all OS architectures out there and I'm a great supporter of all platforms (aside MacOSX that is.. ). So, before jumping to any counter posts, just take a minute and think...

Linux, in 18 years from it's first release has actually dominated more areas of the IT industry than any other technology (both closed and open source) could ever had. Now Linux is (in almost all cases) the major OS player for networking, mobile and stable telephony, embeded systems, data warehousing, education, science, medicine, robotics, computer operated automations, the Internet, business server side applications (CRMs, ERPs, Financial Systems....) and many other areas.

Don't be fooled into thinking that the professional's desktop computer is a tough nut to crack. I think that is rather the opposite. Mainstream computer professionals are always after the most customizable, stable, affordable and most supported (within Internet forums and blogs) solution.

Mainstream computer professionals will make the switch to that kind of solution from one day to another (...simply because there is no issue in the migration of resources for an individual user. Migration of resources is an obstacle only for companies when switching from one technology o another).

It happened before and it will naturally happen again.

Supporting platforms beyond Windows and OSX would be a very difficult step to make, but the possibilities that would be opened for Adobe after this step is made will be equal to the possibilities that Linux offers to it's users. And that would be limitless.

I think Adobe should start thinking about OS interoperability more seriously.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 20, 2010 Jun 20, 2010

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And this situation will keep being like this as long as software vendors that hold industry standards (Adobe in our case) fear to expand to new technologies for the sake of the shareholder's statistics.

Well, in a publicly-held corporation, this is exactly as it should be. Amazing thing about those shareholders - they want an ROI.

There is a great deal of difference between a shareholder and venture capitalist investor. The latter is where the innovators need to look.

Hunt

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LEGEND ,
Jun 26, 2010 Jun 26, 2010

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in a publicly-held corporation, this is exactly as it should be.

And that is the fatal flaw in capitalism.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 26, 2010 Jun 26, 2010

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Somehow, I do not recall many NLE programs coming out of Cuba, Communist China, or the old USSR, but maybe I missed something.

Hunt

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 02, 2010 Jul 02, 2010

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the_wine_snob wrote:

Somehow, I do not recall many NLE programs coming out of Cuba, Communist China, or the old USSR, but maybe I missed something.

Hunt

My friend.

What you've posted is not funny.

For obvious reasons... these people leave in povetry. I don't think their main objective is to produce NLEs.

...and yes. you have missed something...

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Jun 26, 2010 Jun 26, 2010

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That may be a flaw, but it won't be fatal.

That chicken-and-egg thing goes both ways, of course. Why don't you just boycott Mac- and Windows-only software companies until they port to Linux? Instead of asking us to change the market, the market should be telling us what to do -- and right now, they're telling us to develop for Mac and Windows.

JSS1138 wrote:

in a publicly-held corporation, this is exactly as it should be.

And that is the fatal flaw in capitalism.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 26, 2010 Jun 26, 2010

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It's like other things in the marketplace. I had one client ask why I was not producing 3D material yet. It's just like when HD was first becoming popular, but the equipment wasn't quite ready. The market will tell me when it's time, though have to admit that I am no longer an early adopter, like I was in my youth.

The market should dictate established, publicly-held corporations' decisions. For the innovators and entrepreneurs, that is what R&D departments and venture capitalists are for. That has worked very well, and for a long time.

Hunt

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 26, 2010 Jun 26, 2010

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The market should dictate established, publicly-held corporations' decisions. For the innovators and entrepreneurs, that is what R&D departments and venture capitalists are for. That has worked very well, and for a long time.

The problem is that this is not what is happening. Instead, the innovators are toeing the line of the big companies because they think it is the only way to make it.

The big companies that actually have the money to invest in something like that will not do it, so why should the small startups? The big companies seem to prove that it isn't viable with their rhetoric and inaction, though it isn't true...

Windows itself did not become popular until Aldus PageMaker was ported to it. Then when Adobe acquired Aldus and ported their Photoshop application to Windows as well, Adobe proved Windows to be a viable platform for doing professional work on it, even though it was wildly unstable most of the time.

Now, Adobe has the same opportunity to make Linux a viable platform for professional multimedia production. Heck, with Linux, Adobe could create a special "demonstration distro" that would be finely tuned to show off the Creative Suite on Linux. Or even make that distro into a product of its own that they could sell! There are opportunities here that Adobe could take advantage of....

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Jun 27, 2010 Jun 27, 2010

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So that sounds like the innovators' failure.

Conan Kudo wrote:

The problem is that this is not what is happening. Instead, the innovators are toeing the line of the big companies because they think it is the only way to make it.

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 27, 2010 Jun 27, 2010

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jeremy d. wrote:

So that sounds like the innovators' failure.

Perhaps, but still... Everybody knows Photoshop! Some people know about GIMP, but its use is generally discouraged in the industry. There are no equivalents to Adobe Flash and Adobe After Effects on Linux, and there's certainly not the mindshare! There's no question that Linux isn't capable of the type of work that the Creative Suite allows you to do, it is just that the offerings do not exist for Linux for the prosumer.

Adobe is the king of the desktop publishing industry, they make it or break it. If even just Photoshop was ported, it would prove the viability of the platform for creative types. The chicken-and-egg problem would be solved, pretty much! And just by only officially supporting one or two distros (Ubuntu LTS and RHEL), you'd pretty much hit nearly everybody.

And Ubuntu is getting prettier! So, the "Mac is the only aesthetically pleasing OS" argument is disappearing! Adobe has the funds, the manpower, and the expertise to do this, and do this well!

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Jun 27, 2010 Jun 27, 2010

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Ugh, aesthetically pleasing. Fisher-Price Easy Bake iOven.

There's no question that Linux isn't capable of the type of work that the Creative Suite allows you to do

Please clarify that for me -- I'm assuming you mean that Linux is capable

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 27, 2010 Jun 27, 2010

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Ugh, aesthetically pleasing. Fisher-Price Easy Bake iOven.

There's no question that Linux isn't capable of the type of work that the Creative Suite allows you to do

Please clarify that for me -- I'm assuming you mean that Linux is capable

Oops, yeah, I meant is capable.

Windows itself did not become popular until Aldus PageMaker was ported to it. Then when Adobe acquired Aldus and ported their Photoshop application to Windows as well, Adobe proved Windows to be a viable platform for doing professional work on it, even though it was wildly unstable most of the time.

I'm sorry, but I must be missing something here. That sounds like corporate-driven innovation to me.

I was making a point against waiting for small startups to prove viability for creative types.

And Ubuntu is getting prettier! So, the "Mac is the only aesthetically pleasing OS" argument is disappearing!

I installed Ubuntu via the Oracle VM VirtualBox just to take it for a test drive.  And you're right - it is getting prettier.  Much prettier.

But it still falls far short of OSX's or even Windows' "ease of use".  Don't get me wrong - it's getting much better in that department, too.  But for creative types who want to produce, even Ubuntu is far too "techie" for most of them.  Ask someone who's never used Linux before to install a new program, then sit back and watch.  Even for packages included in the Ubuntu distro, it will be a frustrating experience for anyone who's not very computer savvy.  Ask them to install a package that's *not* included in the distro, and you'll be able to go get a couple of beers, and maybe a whole six-pack, before they've sussed it.

Linux has improved its look, feel and operation by leaps and bounds in the last few years, but it's not yet a viable "artist's" OS.

I've got a feeling that Canonical has something up their sleeves for improving Ubuntu's ease of use. My experience with converting my friends to use Linux instead of shelling out for Macs was generally favorable, but I do see your point. The Software Center does make it easy to get lots of different software packages, but it isn't quite there yet. And there are other instances of user-friendliness not quite there yet. But, it is getting there!

Some people know about GIMP, but its use is generally discouraged in the industry.

I am not sure what "industry" you are speaking of here. I've been in the advertising print industry for about 35 years now. From the earliest releases of Gimp, I have seen it actually encouraged in that industry. I tried it way back, but had PhotoStyler and Photoshop, and liked either better.

Even today, there are probably a dozen recommendations for Gimp on the Adobe PS board, and they are common, especially when one complains about the cost of Photoshop.

Now, there are probably factions in the advertising production industry, where it is discouraged, for for a decade, so was the use of a PC. I had many Mac-only clients, who firmly believed that if an image ever saw a PC, it was ruined forever. They were adamant about only having a Mac work on any image. I could handle and output to all the popular Mac-formats on Mac disks (Syquest whatever in those days), and I just kept my mouth shut. For those, who knew I had used a PC, I got congratulations for having "seen the light," and going over to a Mac. None knew and lauded the beautiful images, that could ONLY have come from a Mac. Some factions just foam at the mouth, and one needs to work around them.

At the university I go to, we are required to have Adobe Creative Suite for our art classwork, no subtitutes. Their logic was the reason I gave you, so... meh. Worse yet, we had to have a Mac, even though the school workplace machines were all PCs running Windows....

That Adobe has not become convinced of the marketability and ROI on porting to Linux is just an indication of their decisions, but I would assume that they have looked into doing so, only to find that the ROI is not there - yet. It might happen, or it might not.

Heck, for all I know, they may internally already have most of the infrastructure in place to make a port to Linux and release it! I don't know, but the only thing I can really do is keep asking about it, until it arrives.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 27, 2010 Jun 27, 2010

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Heck, for all I know, they may internally already have most of the infrastructure in place to make a port to Linux and release it! I don't know, but the only thing I can really do is keep asking about it, until it arrives.

Most of us in this thread are all in that same boat. We have no idea of what development work is going on. The few, who might know and drop by, cannot tell us, so we all just have to wait and see.

I have no issues with Linux, though have to admit that when I looked into it, (I think that it was early Red Hat) I decided to not go that route. I played a bit, and just ran out of time and motivation, as I had other things calling. Many acquaintances love it, and have used it for generations. I just did not feel inclined to make the switch, even for only one machine in the studio. That was just me.

Only time will tell... I would not be surprised, as many originally Mac-centric apps. took awhile to be ported for Windows. Some, I never thought would be, but I was incorrect.

Hunt

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Community Beginner ,
Jul 02, 2010 Jul 02, 2010

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I have no issues with Linux, though have to admit that when I looked into it, (I think that it was early Red Hat) I decided to not go that route. I played a bit, and just ran out of time and motivation, as I had other things calling. Many acquaintances love it, and have used it for generations. I just did not feel inclined to make the switch, even for only one machine in the studio. That was just me.

My friend. Spare some time and make an installation of Ubuntu in a VirtualBox machine and play with it for a few weeks, join up the Ubuntu community forum and ask a few questions there on how to get around...

I'm sure that then you'll probably (even through limited window of a virtual machine) understand why all of us are "waving" the "port to Linux" flag.

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