Linux Version?

[ebinrock]

Will there ever be a Linux version (preferably Ubuntu/Debian Linux since that's the most popular) of Adobe Premiere Pro, and also the entire Production Premium Creative Suite?  At my workplace I already made the decision to go on the PC platform for our edit systems, and am regretting it because Prod. Prem. CS4 is ALWAYS crashing (particularly Premiere and After Effects) on the Windows XP OS (also using Matrox Axio LE hardware).  My co-worker wanted us to go with the Mac platform (when we were pitching considerations to our boss), but I didn't listen.  So it doesn't look like we'll be able to justify a whole other hardware investment, so if Adobe's CSPP were to be ported to Linux, that would be a win-win (no pun intended with Win-dows!) for us where we would just buy the Linux version of the software.  I know no OS is perfect, but from my experience Windows is a horrible OS that should die.  When it crashes, it crashes nasty - it hangs for a long time before quitting.  Linux, from my experience, performs much faster on the same machine, and when it crashes (less often), it lets you quit immediately.

As for the argument I've read that it's not worth it for Adobe to port their programs to Linux because it has "only 1% market share", where does that info come from?  How can you accurately measure Linux's usage when it's a free download and there are so many distributions of it?  Besides, it's a Catch-22: if Linux is so small in market share, it's because (1) there aren't a whole lot of mainstream applications that run natively on it (as for Wine, forget it, I've had horrible problems with it), and (2) Linux isn't pre-installed on a lot of machines for the majority of computer users, who are relatively non-technical.  No. 2 is something companies like Canonical is trying to change by arranging partnerships with Dell, HP, etc.  No. 1 is something that guys like you, Adobe, can change.  (How much can the development costs be, anyway?  You already make Linux versions of Flash player and Acrobat Reader.  All these programs are written in C or Java, right?)  Believe me, people will buy a Linux Production Premium.  We'll buy 3 licenses up front.

Dale Cornibe

Electronic Media/Video Producer

Travis County Media

Austin, Texas

[jeremy d.]

It would seem that the current SVP of Marketing was a bit reluctant to give up his job.

Go figure.

[Conan_Kudo]

It would seem that the current SVP of Marketing was a bit reluctant to give up his job.

Go figure.

You'd probably stop hanging out here once you were promoted anyway... After all, any "Senior" position must delegate, delegate, delegate....

[mikep-bluefish]

Jeff, you must be referring to un-compiled source code packages that do not exist in the official Ubuntu repositories.

But just for the record:

1. If you need to find a package that does not exist in the official repositories you can also find it in the unofficial repositories in launchpad.net. Adding an unofficial repository, is a matter of clicking its link in the web browser. It's a very rare thing not to find what you're looking for in Ubuntu. And if you don't know how to get around in doing things like this you can also post a question in the forums.

2. Installing something from Ubuntu repositories is as simple as opening the Synaptics application, writing the name of what you want to install, check-clicking onto it and then clicking Apply.

You can also do many application installations at once and also save your installation check list and run it on other systems or make it automated.

3. If (not only) commercial Linux software are not distributed in DEB files, then they are distributed in binary installers or shell script installers. Installing via a binary or script  installer is a matter of double clicking onto it. Just Like Windows...

...but source code, will always be source code... it will always need compilation. That is a fact for all Operating Systems... not just Linux

in order to be able to use Linux, you must go through a few tutorials or books first (buy a Linux Format magazine for example). I think that this is a fact for all software...

[Conan_Kudo]

2. Installing something from Ubuntu repositories is as simple as opening the Synaptics application, writing the name of what you want to install, check-clicking onto it and then clicking Apply.

You can also do many application installations at once and also save your installation check list and run it on other systems or make it automated.

I would never recommend anybody to use Synaptics. That application does not search for things like normal applications do. I'd tell them to use the Ubuntu Software Center, which lists them by human readable name and description, with a nice icon too.

in order to be able to use Linux, you must go through a few tutorials or books first (buy a Linux Format magazine for example). I think that this is a fact for all software...

It used to be a fact for all software. Unless you've never used a computer before, you wouldn't need a tutorial to use the latest Ubuntu, not really. Once you start doing more unusual tasks like audio production, then yes you would need some tutorials. But I think Linux has progressed enough where most basic tasks (and a few not-so-basic ones) do not require tutorials. Though tutorials for those sort of tasks do exist.

[mikep-bluefish]

Conan Kudo wrote:

I would never recommend anybody to use Synaptics. That application does not search for things like normal applications do. I'd tell them to use the Ubuntu Software Center, which lists them by human readable name and description, with a nice icon too.

In any case bro, Software Center, Synaptics, GDebi or even the apt-get command, in Linux , (for the first time in history of all OSs probably) users have have a proper and safe package management system that actually manages dependencies for them. People can start from Software Center and afterwards (when they get more aware with Linux) progress to Synaptics or any other "advanced" package management tool.

Conan Kudo wrote:  Once you start doing more unusual tasks like audio production, then yes you would need some tutorials. But I think Linux has progressed enough where most basic tasks (and a few not-so-basic ones) do not require tutorials. Though tutorials for those sort of tasks do exist.

Mostly the the tasks that, let's say "force" users to go in "command line mode" are all the things that need to be tweaked some how, things like enabling a "weird" device driver for a device that does not support Linux and yet, Linux supports it, or the setting up of server software, software programming SDKs... which basically they were ment to be used from the terminal window.

I wrote:

...are things like enabling a "weird" device driver for a device that does not support Linux and yet, Linux supports it...

...but how would hardware vendors would support an OS when they see that the support from commercial software vendors is not there?

If leading companies like Adobe support Linux with their products then hardware vendors will say "hey.. these dudes are using Premier and After Effects on Linux. Lets make some drivers for them so they can buy our stuff...". After all, for programmers, writing device drivers on Linux is easier and more flexible than for any other OS.

[the_wine_snob]

Some people know about GIMP, but its use is generally discouraged in the industry.

I am not sure what "industry" you are speaking of here. I've been in the advertising print industry for about 35 years now. From the earliest releases of Gimp, I have seen it actually encouraged in that industry. I tried it way back, but had PhotoStyler and Photoshop, and liked either better.

Even today, there are probably a dozen recommendations for Gimp on the Adobe PS board, and they are common, especially when one complains about the cost of Photoshop.

Now, there are probably factions in the advertising production industry, where it is discouraged, for for a decade, so was the use of a PC. I had many Mac-only clients, who firmly believed that if an image ever saw a PC, it was ruined forever. They were adamant about only having a Mac work on any image. I could handle and output to all the popular Mac-formats on Mac disks (Syquest whatever in those days), and I just kept my mouth shut. For those, who knew I had used a PC, I got congratulations for having "seen the light," and going over to a Mac. None knew and lauded the beautiful images, that could ONLY have come from a Mac. Some factions just foam at the mouth, and one needs to work around them.

Good luck,

Hunt

[the_wine_snob]

Windows itself did not become popular until Aldus PageMaker was ported to it. Then when Adobe acquired Aldus and ported their Photoshop application to Windows as well, Adobe proved Windows to be a viable platform for doing professional work on it, even though it was wildly unstable most of the time.

I'm sorry, but I must be missing something here. That sounds like corporate-driven innovation to me.

There are many such examples, such as Xerox. Much of their development was not actually implemented on a commercial basis, except by others down the line. That is what can happen with R & D.

That Adobe has not become convinced of the marketability and ROI on porting to Linux is just an indication of their decisions, but I would assume that they have looked into doing so, only to find that the ROI is not there - yet. It might happen, or it might not.

Many software corporations have continued to produce Mac-only apps, though there is obviously a large market on the Windows side of the street. For them, they do not anticipate that such a re-writing would benefit them financially. Maybe some day. Is this a sound financial call? Only they, and history, can determine that.

Going back many years, there was a great font management program, Font Minder. Though ported for the earliest versions of Windows, I managed to work with it through NT3. Adobe bought it, and I waited in anticipation for the new-improved release. It never happened. The product died. Adobe was heavily invested in ATM, and I suppose that that department did not want to try and incorporate Font Minder into ATM, or spend the $ to create and market a competitor. I'll never know, but that was not my decision. Now, ATM is all but history too. Even in its early form, Font Minder was better, IMHO, than Extensis Suitcase is now.

Just some thoughts and observations,

Hunt

PS - BTW, I got my Aldus Design Suite (PhotoStyler, PageMaker and Freehand) the first week that it went on sale for Windows. Many of my Mac-compatriots had it, and easily convinced me that it was the future. To a big degree, it was. Now, PhotoStyler was replaced by Photoshop, and the design team went on to become Ulead. After a "vacation," Macromedia picked up Freehand, but I think that it is now RIP, as AI has that market. Even the venerable PageMaker was replaced by InDesign, but many still use PageMaker, up to about version 8, and love it. I still have a few copies of it around, as I have a lot of older PM documents, and even with the conversion utility, some things just do not translate well to InDesign. I also got my Windows PS copy the day that it was released, though I had PhotoStyler already. My original S/N for PS was something like PWS-000-00-003.

[excited_Genie16B8]

That may be a flaw, but it won't be fatal.

Give it time.  America is young yet.

But I digress.

[jeremy d.]

Well, if that's a problem for you, then you have some choices to make; try to do something about it, complain but do nothing, or move.

But yes, we digress.

JSS1138 wrote:

That may be a flaw, but it won't be fatal.

Give it time.  America is young yet.

But I digress.

[crfurlong]

... Why don't you just boycott Mac- and Windows-only software companies until they port to Linux? Instead of asking us to change the market, the market should be telling us what to do...

The problem with this argument is, we have to make a living.  A few freelancers boycotting Adobe products would hardly be noticed.  Since there is no comparable apps to turn to running on Linux, we don't have a way to inform Adobe through the market place that Linux is the direction we want to go in.

I personally moved from Apple to Win in the mid 90s when the higher end 3D tools were PC and Sun.  I tried last year to go to Linux.  3D and web dev was easy on Linux, but I had to dual boot to run Adobe products and found myself once again sucked into production in Win (switching back and forth became a pain).

The problem with the market research argument is that many creatives (at least the ones I know), don't have the tech savvy or time to try out options like Linux, so most of them don't know the advantages of running on a Linux box...   chicken and egg argument.

If Adobe had Linux version of an app (PS would be great) on a bootable DVD or flash drive with Linux, at least it would be easier to evaluate the difference and make a better informed decision about which environment we would prefer.  I remember Unreal coming out on a bootable Linux CD Rom many years ago.  I was amazed at how fast my machine ran the game with only the OS and game running.  I would love to have Adobe products running on a clean, low overhead OS for heavy projects.

If Adobe were on Linux, you would see much more dev for supporting graphic apps/plugins for the OS as well.

Adobe is the chicken who should lay the egg in my opinion.  If they don't, I hope someone sees this opportunity to develop a competitive tool set for the graphics community on Linux.

[the_wine_snob]

Adobe is the chicken who should lay the egg in my opinion.

To continue with the barnyard reference, with a publicly traded corporation, to re-write code of existing programs, for an undefined potential user-base, might well result in an "egg" for the shareholders.

The way to have your voice heard is for Linux users to file Feature Requests, to help Adobe identify a potential market. When Adobe feels that the install-base warrants, and a market does exist, they can then allocate funds to the development. I am certain that Adobe would love to be in as many markets, as it can, however, without numbers to support the new direction, it's difficult to convince the shareholders to turn loose of R&D funds, just because some people want it. If those numbers prove to be significant - the job is much easier.

When my wife asks for US$400M to build a new tower, she cannot go to the board and say, "some people want this." She has to provide enough data to support her assertions, and prove a ROI to her boards. Then, if available, money is allocated. Business is funny that way.

Good luck, and have all of your Linux friends file the Feature Request to. Remember, only file one per person. The idea is to help Adobe realize that there is a real market out there, and not to fill their InBox. That is a sure way to get a proposal put on "ignore."

Hunt

[redrings13]

I run CS4 in Windows at work and home right now.  I am already dual booting (use Ubuntu unless I need to run CS4) at both locations and would definately switch if a Linux version became available.  I work in the IT support department at a major university and know of at least 5 users running CS5 on Mac systems that we would switch over to linux if a version became available, and another 20 we would switch over from the Windows version.

[jeremy d.]

..and:

Disparage Windoze, Windork, and whatever else you want to call it all you want. Nobody here cares. Windows sucks, Mac sucks, that's just the way it is. I'm sorry you have issues with your Windows XP system. That's not Adobe's fault. We've managed to get something like 15 versions of Premiere out the door, and if everyone had the issues you're having, do you think we'd still have a market?

What is this scientific research you're talking about? We ask our users, we ask users of other NLEs, we ask the community as a whole, and we are informed generally by market share. It's too late to ask for space in the Census.

You will likely be ignored if you choose to swear at us; it will probably also get you banned. We are happy to have a rational conversation with you. There are a bunch of geeks here who would engage in a Linux debate with you.

[the_wine_snob]

It's too late to ask for space in the Census.

Well, for US$ 14.3B, one would think that there would be useful info in there somewhere.

BTW - I got the long form for the US Census and besides the # of bathrooms in my house, they asked which NLE program I used most.

Hunt

[ebinrock]

"You will likely be ignored if you choose to swear at us; it will  probably also get you banned."

In the words of Sheriff Buford T. Justice from Smokey and the Bandit, "I apologize to all the friendly folk who are listening."  Whoops, there, now I've done it, I've violated copyright law too.  (Not trying to be smart-alec.)

To others' questions, I chose Windows mainly because we could easily download upgrades from our office computers, which our IT department dictates shall be Windows machines.  Also, at the time of our purchase, Ultra was still made by Serious Magic and was available only in Windows format.  I love the fact that it was a low-cost way to get a variety of virtual sets (which is now missing in its integrated form with Premiere CS5, thank you so much Adobe).

Also, when we purchased these systems (3 in all), we had a budget of $16,000 for each system - including the monitors, accessories, and furniture.  I was just able to squeeze in what I thought we needed for a speedy, reliable system.  If we had gone with Mac, we would have gone over budget, because everyone knows, their hardware (even though it's still Intel-based hardware, nothing special or "magical" about it) is more expensive for the same capability.  It's nuts.  I'm sorry, I still think we're all in computing heck (see, I didn't swear!) with both the Windows and Mac strongholds, and Linux needs to become mainstream IMHO.  Thank goodness Canonical is trying to break the chicken-and-egg cycle of Linux.  If/when Linux gains real momentum and market share, then perhaps would you consider further development in that area?  I mean, look at what's happening out there already with Android.  Ubuntu isn't going to be in the closet for long on the desktop.  It's only a matter of time.

As an alternative, what are the prospects for developing cloud-based versions of CS software?  Imagine the asset-sharing capabilities when we get there!  We'll need to have a much bigger, faster, more secure internet than what we already have, though.  Have you considered partnering with Google?  Maybe they can help propel your products to either Linux or the cloud.  Windows needs to die.  (Sorry, is that last statement too aggressive?)  Maybe 7 is better.  My experience is just with 32-bit XP (we county govts. are a bit behind with technology).

Dale

[ebinrock]

BTW, I never mentioned anything about BSOD's, just lockups and then long crashes/hangs when I CTRL-ALT-DEL and click End Now.

[ebinrock]

Oh yes, and I do understand the barrier of the whole Linux culture/mindset/perception that many/most Linux users expect all software to be free.  Well, I for one would pay full price to get a piece (or suite) of mainstream software on a reliable platform that didn't require me to dump my current PC and buy a whole other kind of computer (Mac).  That's what I mean by "computer heck".

Dale

[Jeff Bellune]

I understand about your lack of BSODs.  However, when you talk about OS stability, it's usually BSODs that really define how stable the OS is.  App crashes are more common, but at least for me in Win7 and in Vista, app crashes *never* took down the OS or even made it skip a beat.  Only in older versions of Windows did I have to worry about an app crash also taking the OS down with it.  I assumed that when you said Windows was junk and unstable, that you were talking about app crashes taking your system as well.    Was I mistaken?  Apologies if I misunderstood.  Windows application stability is a very different thing than Windows OS  stability.

Sorry to be so anal retentive about terminology here, but usually problems can't get fixed unless everyone is singing from the same sheet of music.

-Jeff

EDIT: Oops.  More assumptions.  I assume that, absent a Linux version, you'd like to solve some of your Windows/CS4 issues so that you can actually get some work done.  If you're not interested in that, then I'll just go to the kitchen and make myself a sandwich.  Jeremy, did you bring the roast beef?  I can't find it in the fridge.  Somebody put a beer stein where the meat should go.  I see that ORSA will have to make a surprise visit tomorrow.

[jeremy d.]

In the words of Sheriff Buford T. Justice from Smokey and the Bandit, "I apologize to all the friendly folk who are listening."  Whoops, there, now I've done it, I've violated copyright law too.

Sorry, I have to report you to The Authorities. If you're going to quote movies, you're probably in the right place.

I'm all for a cloud version, and more power to Linux users if they can make Linux take off. If it became a major player, you bet we'd consider developing for it. If it were just me, Jeremy Adobe, and maybe a few other guys here at Adobe Private Company in my Garage, sure, we could try to get something going for Linux. I am only restating the obvious, though, that Adobe Publicly Traded Corporation, which pays for my garage, has investors to please. Most of them are not computer power users, they just want a fat ROI.

I wonder what you think it would take to get Linux to the point that it evolves beyond a distant third (which would be fine, because you are right, we are in Windows h-e-double-hockey-sticks). Would evengelizing heavily do it? Maybe you can find a smaller, yet extremely well-known company to develop for it?

[ebinrock]

Well, I thank you for at least keeping the door open.  I agree, what really needs to happen is the actual OS ecosystem (Linux) needs to become viable and mainstream, and I do believe it's getting there, little by little.  First the OS ecosystem needs to be in place, then the app developers will develop for it (although it is a frustrating catch-22, because how can an OS get more users without enough good programs (i.e., not just no-name open source baloney apps) to run on it?).

Well, here's to hoping for the future, and meanwhile, hopefully, we can see better performance with a Win 7 64-bit upgrade, ditch the Matrox, and simplify.  If that doesn't work maybe we can try chewing gum.

For all intents and purposes, though, I'm considering this issue closed for now.

Dale

[Conan_Kudo]

I would like to see the entire product line of the Adobe Creative Suite available as native Linux applications.

However, I do not expect Adobe to immediately make the entire Adobe Creative Suite line available for Linux with fully rewritten code. In this case, I would like to suggest that perhaps hybridizing the Windows code with some Linux code to take care of the job immediately and start replacing with native code as time goes on.

This could be accomplished by using Winelib. Winelib allows you to compile Microsoft Windows code to generate native Linux binaries with dependencies on Wine libraries, but not requiring Wine itself. It would be able to successfully interact the the native filesystem, native Linux code (for using GStreamer instead of DirectShow, etc.) can be integrated in with the Winelib code and compiled in together into a single binary, etc.

Another route would be to use Cocoa and GNUStep to port to Linux. My understanding is that the entire Creative Suite is now Cocoa-based on Mac OS X. You could take advantage of that and shave quite a bit of development time off if you used the Cocoa codebase as the basis for the Linux port by using the GNUStep framework to reduce some work in porting to Linux, while replace the parts that don't exist on Linux (QuickTime, etc.) with their Linux equivalents (GStreamer, etc.).

If it was still Carbon-based, you could create a source-compatible CarbonLib that includes all the functionality the Creative Suite needs, and have CarbonLib interface with Linux equivalent components. CarbonLib was designed to make it easy to port between platforms, after all. If you did something awesome like that, you guys could make it into an open source project so that other people can contribute and help make the CarbonLib more complete and ready more quickly. Then, just recompile against the Linux CarbonLib and you have a ready made Linux version. And since the CarbonLib wouldn't be restricted to 32-bit on Linux by Apple, you could produce 64-bit versions...

NO ONE has yet fully tapped into the Linux market with design tools. Sure we have Inkscape, GIMP, and Audacity, but they don't really cut it at all against Illustrator, Photoshop, and Soundbooth/Audition. We don't have an existing movie editing/streaming application that actually works properly, and Adobe has the extremely good Premiere Pro and After Effects applications.

I personally want these tools available as native Linux binaries because I want to be able to give up on using Windows. Frankly, I'm getting SICK of Windows Vista and 7 isn't really too much better. I know I'm going to have to give up on Windows XP soon enough, so I already have moved most of my computers to Linux.

Adobe is a champion at what they do, so why is it so difficult for them to bring their expertise and wonderful products to Linux? Their efforts with the Adobe Flash Player 10 were wonderfully appreciated, and Adobe really should extend their reach. Adobe has nothing to lose and everything to gain from this. I want to be able to open up my Linux desktop and be able to make some Flash projects, edit and video to embed, and record a realtime stream and send it out to ustream.

I know for a fact that this is something a LOT of people want. I want it because I am starting to hate my Windows PCs and my Macs, and I don't want to give up my Adobe software. Some people want this because it offers them choice among the types of systems they can use. And by supporting Linux, other OSes with a Linux binary compatibility layer can run it too (e.g. FreeBSD). Adobe knows that Linux as a platform will never go away, but by bringing Adobe software to Linux, Linux will become a viable commercial platform for desktop/workstation software.

A concern that many companies have is that Linux users will just want them to open source it or get others to not use it because it isn't Free Software as defined by the FSF. These people are an extremely vocal MINORITY. A vast majority of people do not care one way or another if it is FOSS or not. And, by making well made Linux versions available publicly, you get some very good publicity.

[ebinrock]

Conan,

You hit the nail on the head, brother!  This is probably one of the best, most thought-out answers to date.  Currently, I think it's hypocrisy of Adobe to make Flash Player and [Acrobat] Reader for Linux, but not their other software tools.  We may get our wish when, and only when, Canonical starts putting Ubuntu on every desktop as an alternative choice to Windows (even Windows 7, 8, or whatever).  Then Adobe may see a market for Linux.  All of this is market-driven.  A little newsflash for Adobe: hardware makers are starting to make their gear Linux-compatible.  All nVIDIA video cards, for example, have native Linux drivers, and even Blackmagic Design makes their DeckLink I/O cards Linux-compatible.  What good is that if there's no video post-production software with which to use those cards?

[mikep-bluefish]

Hey guys

Just getting back to that "Creative Suite can stop being the Holy Grail from one day to another if a bunch of software developers decide to..." thingy I mentioned earlier, you might want to have a look at:

http://www.editshare.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=164&Itemid=160

http://www.editshare.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=208

... a Linux version will be available upon release.

[ebinrock]

Here's an interesting article about a Mac user who decided to switch to Ubuntu Linux, and why:

http://www.salon.com/technology/dan_gillmor/2010/06/20/from_mac_to_linux/

People are getting sick of Microsoft, and now especially of Apple's "walled garden".

[ebinrock]

Wow, it looks like the "switchboard" is lighting up here on this topic.  This is good...healthy open discussion going on here.