Why did they have to pick AE?

[Dave_LaRonde]

Y'know, I really wish the high school kids had chosen an application like Apple Motion to make their lame-ass visualizers and YouTube intros.  Life around here would be a lot simpler and mush less tedious.

Besides, you buy Motion just once and you're done.  You don't have to pay rent on it every month.

[kriscave]

This isn't meant to be counterproductive. This is really just a quick little blowing off of steam.

Ehh. I totally get venting and that's fine; I know answering simple questions gets tiresome, particularly when the solution is often easy to find with a quick Google search– I deal with it every day at my office. But starting a discussion by calling other people's work, whether or not you like, agree with, or understand it, "lame-ass" is counterproductive – especially in regards to building this community.

Much of this thread comes off as condescending and negative. You don't have to agree with or understand why someone wants to make something in order to help them make it. They're learning how After Effects works and, hopefully, they will be able to apply these techniques to future projects should they choose to focus on motion design or animation.

Besides, this thread is set up in such a way that it's unlikely anybody is going to stumble across it that we're discussing. I mean, if somebody is searching these forums, they're already not the kind of person being discussed!

I mean, I stumbled across this thread and I wasn't looking for it. It was the second topic in my feed.

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just making an observation that if I were one of the kids making these things I wouldn't feel welcome to join this community or to questions if I stumbled across this. And honestly, even though I can only make a few educated guesses about why they're making this stuff, this thread and the defense of it has me second-guessing whether or not I want to be more active here.

[eikonoklastes]

I second this sentiment. This thread is obnoxious and condescending, and it's amazing that it is still alive in the After Effects forum, instead of being in an Off-topic forum somewhere.

Last I checked, participation in these forums was entirely voluntary. There is zero obligation on anyone's part to read or comment on anything over here.

The kinds of questions being asked shouldn't matter, as long as they are within the forum rules. If you feel like contributing, do so. If not, just move on with your life.

I have been using After Effects for about 15 years now, but I can still remember the time when I was clueless about it, and needed to reach out on forums like CGTalk to ask my stupid questions. Fortunately, back then I was never exposed to a thread like this because I know for a fact that it would be severely disheartening to read, and make me not want to post on those boards any more.

The fact that a bunch of veteran users are sitting around here poking fun at amateur work, and indeed their attempts to reach out for help, reeks of elitism and unwarranted entitlement.

Get over yourselves, and I sincerely hope a moderator vaporizes this entire thread.

[Mylenium]

Nobody is denying that just like everyone else we can be bad boys when caught on the wrong foot, but allow me: It's not only the AE-specific questions. Many questions revolve around basic issues that are way more general before AE even comes in the picture. People don't have the slightest glimmer how video, their TV, their computer, their cellphone, their photo camera etc. work and expect everything to be done by ways of some app or magic button.

I don't expect anyone to geek out on this stuff, but some basic technical knowledge sure doesn't hurt, especially in a time where it's many times more easy than back in the 1990s when I started out. These days you don't have to worry too much about dealing with interlaced video, obscure CoDecs, broadcast specs and whatnot. There are sensible presets everywhere and a million tutorials for everything. Therefore I don't think it's too much too ask to at least do us the favor and look up some of these things.

There's really nothing wrong if you don't grasp these concepts and then come here to ask your questions, but the typical "newbie" seems to come in here totally clueless, storming in and posting a "Solve my problem" thread without even asking politely. It's simply taken for granted and if we don't play ball or even point out that we don't have enough information, we are being chastised as being unhelpful, rude or whatever. And that's not just AE, it happens on all forums where I'm active.

So for what it's worth, I feel entitled to be put off and feel miffed about some things. These days of course I try to stay out of trouble and ignore a lot of this stuff, but that doesn't mean I always succeed. Still, I don't mind being "straight up". I've worked hard on learning the ins and outs of many programs and workflows, most of it even self-taught, and I don't see why other people can't do the same. It's all about motivation and trying, and clearly if I see someone just being lazy, I don't feel compelled too much to let myself be abused.

That's even more the case when someone with no talent just tries to make a quick buck on someone elses back, which, taking us back to Dave's original post, is even what many audio visualizer people do. They're just trying to quickly throw stuff together to monetize it on YouTube...

Mylenium

[eikonoklastes]

I get what you're saying, and I agree that effort needs to be made before asking a question, and the perceived lack of that effort can give rise to some frustration from the person trying to help.

Adobe already goes a bit out of their way to put up links to the FAQ and a search box right up front and center of the forum home pages, but those chunks of text are easy to miss or not be bothered with.

Perhaps what they could do is trigger a search as the user is typing out the topic of their new post. Unreal Engine Answers does this, and it is a great feature. It might help mitigate the number of superfluous questions that can clutter up these boards.

Exhibit A:

[P.M.B]

Perhaps what they could do is trigger a search as the user is typing out the topic of their new post

That would require quite a bit of work and effort.   I think it speaks the whole crux of the frustration, which is:

If the new user is not willing to put in the effort & time of learning the basics why should people bend over backwards to accommodate

them.

Exhibit A:  A friend once expressed interest in doing animation and asked me if I could show her Maya.  Reluctantly, I agreed.

                I started with the basics...this is a polygon, it's made of points, edges & faces.  Here's how 3d space works, here's how you navigate..etc.

                    Friend:  Why do I have to learn all this?  I just want to learn to animate.

                        Me:   Well there's lots of reason. It's foundational.  If you don't understand this stuff you will not even be able to

                                  ask a proper question.

                      We pushed on.  Eventually she quit & I was irked that I wasted several hours of my day. But honestly I was also irked that she quit.  It bothers me deeply when see people who want something but are not willing exert any effort & instead ask others to "help" them & then question the help.  You ask me to help you get a fish and I'm handing you a fishing pole.  You got a problem with that you can kick rocks.

Eddie Izzard, one of my favorite comedians has great bit about how just before a plane takes off they go over how to use the seat belt. He says that that should be a test BEFORE you even get on the plane.  If you can't work it out...you don't get to fly.

[Szalam]

Gutter-Fish  wrote

Eddie Izzard, one of my favorite comedians

I knew I liked you.

[eikonoklastes]

Gutter-Fish  wrote

Perhaps what they could do is trigger a search as the user is typing out the topic of their new post

That would require quite a bit of work and effort.   I think it speaks the whole crux of the frustration, which is:

If the new user is not willing to put in the effort & time of learning the basics why should people bend over backwards to accommodate

them.

This search box already exists on the forum home page, with real-time results as you type your query. They just need to switch it on for when the poster is typing out the topic title as well, and it might help a bit.

[kriscave]

These days you don't have to worry too much about dealing with interlaced video, obscure CoDecs, broadcast specs and whatnot. There are sensible presets everywhere and a million tutorials for everything. Therefore I don't think it's too much too ask to at least do us the favor and look up some of these things.

Just because they're not dealing with interlaced video, etc, doesn't mean they're not running into other confusing issues with the newer technology and features. Adobe has introduced hundreds of new features since we first learned AE that can seem just as daunting. And don't forget, we have 10-20 years of experience under our belts. Yeah, we can ask them to look these things up, and I encourage us to continue to do that; that also doesn't mean the answer they find will be clear-cut especially in today's world where there are millions of tutorials for everything. I can see how someone would rather attempt to hold an actual conversation with someone vs sift through video after video trying to find an answer. And if someone doesn't ask a question in a courteous manner, then call them out on it and move on.

It's all about motivation and trying, and clearly if I see someone just being lazy, I don't feel compelled too much to let myself be abused.

No one said to let yourself be abused, I certainly haven't. I wouldn't tolerate that either, but there's a difference between addressing the problem (or ignoring these kinds of people) and actively posting in a thread not "getting" why they're creating audio-visualizers and ridiculing them for doing so. Should we really care what they're creating more than we appreciate that they are creating?

Again, I totally get the frustration, especially with people who fail to do a little bit of homework before swinging by and asking tons of questions. I don't think anyone is arguing that issue. My point is lamenting about it and judging them for what they're trying to do (create audio visualizers, for example) is not helpful in any way, for anyone, particularly in a public forum like this. This is akin to 1st-grade teachers walking into the cafeteria at lunch and openly ridiculing their students for not understanding addition and subtraction. I'm sure conversations are held in private about some frustrations, but a good teacher will recognize a recurring problem and seek solutions among peers to solve it.

This conversation easily could've been a presentation of the problem and a discussion of possible ways to address that problem within the community.

Whether it be sticky posts with useful resources for newbies or a strategy to point a lot of these simple questions towards the help, FAQ, or other threads for example. Or possibly even ways to address the problem outside of the forums with Adobe's assistance – personally I've never easily found my answer in the Help section of the Adobe apps; the first thing I do is Google my question or problem. I think that right there is an example of an issue that could be brought up with Adobe as feedback. Cinema4D has the best 'Help' assistance I've ever seen. Right-click on anything in the UI and show that element in the help doc; that's a beautiful implementation that actually got me to use the in-app Help and something like it would be a wonderful addition to the program.

None of this is brought up in this thread, and that's the issue I'm trying to point out. To be honest, the reason why I even clicked into this topic is because I saw Dave's name attached to it. Like many others, I've seen him all over the Creative Cow forums and his answers often guided me in the right direction for my similar problems; he's even address my question specifically. Because of his veteran status I was inclined to stop in and see what he was helping with/discussing.

It's a bit disheartening to read through this and makes me wonder if I'd ever stumbled across a forum post like this about stuff I was interested when I was first starting, especially on Adobe or Creative Cow's forums, if I would've ever gotten involved in the community or even pushed to teach myself AE.

I won't belabor my point any longer, I think you guys get where I'm coming from. The short of it is I understand the venting and issues on the forums; instead of complaining and ridiculing, let's try to be constructive in our criticism and seek proper solutions for the problems we notice. As educators, people do look up us (more-so you veterans) for guidance. No matter how rude these "students" can be, we have an obligation to try to set them on the right path even if it includes slapping their hand every now and then for their rudeness. We should be setting an example, not fanning the flames.

PS. I'd be remiss for not thanking the vets around here for all your help and insight. You have more impact than perhaps you realize, especially for people like myself who used to lurk the forums. I'm not sure I would've developed my skills as much without your posts and contributions to the community.

[Mylenium]

PS. I'd be remiss for not thanking the vets around here for all your help and insight. You have more impact than perhaps you realize, especially for people like myself who used to lurk the forums. I'm not sure I would've developed my skills as much without your posts and contributions to the community.

Well, that in itself is a point - you were lurking and learning from others long before you decided to participate, which is something that those frustrating newbies don't do, either. You've mostly lost me on your other points, so I'll refrain from making any more comments to not further escalate this thread, though I could go on about this for hours...

Mylenium

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Dave,

I think that this post is probably better served in the Video Lounge. Hope that's OK with you.

Thanks,
Kevin

[JordanService]

Reported abuse.