P: Leica DNG Embedded Camera Profile Issue

[Todd Shaner]

[Feature request: The Embedded profile is hidden in the Legacy group, which is hidden by default.  The profile, which is assigned by default when a Leica photo is imported, should be appear in Favorites and also in a profile group that isn't hidden by default. See here for details:
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/leica-m-262-dng-embedded-camera-profile-issue...
- John Ellis]

Leica M 262 DNG camera files display the 'Embedded' Profile when initially viewed in LR Classic 7.5 Develop module. When any other camera profile is selected the 'Embedded' Profile entry is no longer visible including in the Profile Browser. If 'Read Metadata from File' is invoked the 'Embedded' profile entry reappears and is selected. In addition if 'Save Metadata to File' or 'Update DNG Preview & Metadata' is invoked the 'Embedded' Profile selection disappears completely and is not recoverable using 'Read Metadata from File.'

LR 7.2 does not exhibit this behavior so it appears this "bug" was created in one of the LR Classic versions after 7.2. Please see this post in the Lightroom Classic forum for further information:

https://forums.adobe.com/message/10591309#10591309

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

I've logged it with the team, Todd. Thanks for the report. 

[Todd Shaner]

Thanks Rikk!

[TheBilbo]

Thank you for passing this on, Todd, and logging it in, Rikk.

[TheBilbo]

Actually, my experience is that .DNG files from my M 262 import in LR 7.5 with "Adobe Color" selected by default, and "Embedded" not listed as an option. "Read metadata from file" has no effect, i.e., "Embedded" does not appear.

[Todd Shaner]

Rikk there appears to be another related issue. The DNG Specification allows multiple camera profiles to be embedded in a single DNG file. Please see page 15 of Adobe DNG Specifcation v1.4.0.0. I'm fairly certain I was able to do this successfully in earlier LR versions (LR5 or LR6?).  This allows embedding multiple custom camera profiles into the DNG file using 'Save Metadata to File.' The DNG file can then be opened on a system that doesn't have these camera profiles installed and all of the embedded camera profiles will appear and can be used with that DNG file. Using LR Classic 7.5 only one (1) camera profile can be embedded into a DNG file.

It would seem this is also required to support camera embedded profiles to allow updating the metadata with a different profile.  Without this capability the original camera embedded profile will no longer be accessible since it is not installed on the system.

[Todd Shaner]

Robert in your LR 'Catalog Settings' do you have 'Automatically write changes into XMP' checked? With this checked, OR invoking 'Save Metadata to File,' OR 'Update DNG Preview & Metadata' the camera embedded profile is no longer accessible (see below reply).

[TheBilbo]

Todd, no that option is NOT checked, nor have I invoked the two other options you mentioned.

[Todd Shaner]

OK, so you may have a 2nd issue. Please shoot a new DNG file on the Leica m 262, upload it to Dropbox or other file sharing site, and provide the share link in a reply here. Please do this BEFORE Importing the file into LR or opening it in Camera Raw. Then Import the file into LR and see if it is missing the 'Embedded' profile selection. I'll check it on my system. Thank you.

[TheBilbo]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xlv73ml1ybokdac/L1001977.DNG?dl=0

[TheBilbo]

Imported into 7.5, still defaults to "Adobe Color" but it also shows the self-initiated color shift I wrote about earlier...hope you can experience it. It happens in the Develop Module, and I have not invoked any actions:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9s95bfsjt4g61ew/Screenshot2018-08-3117.09.23.png?dl=0

[TheBilbo]

After 5:00 here in CT and I have some family obligations, so going to shut down for now. I'll be interested in hearing what you see.

[Todd Shaner]

I see the same results as you with no 'Embedded' Profile selection showing. I checked your DNG file and the downloaded files that show an 'Embedded' Profile selection using ExifTool. Your file has no XMP data as expected since it's an unaltered camera file. The downloaded sample DNGs with 'Embedded' profiles all have XMP data created using an "earlier version" of LR or ACR (LR 6.3 and ACR 7.0). So it appears something has changed in LR 7.3-7.5 since John Ellis doesn't see the issue using LR 7.2. ERGO–Bug!

[benjamingordon]

This is happening with my leica m240 in lightroom 7.5
please watch the screencast below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kme5w19qpou0o5r/lightroomexposureissue.mov?dl=0

[TheBilbo]

Yes, what Benjamin Gordon reported above is exactly what I reported some weeks ago, as below:

I am experiencing sporadic self-activating color shifts to Leica M 262 .DNG images in the Develop Module of LR 7.5. I am running OS X High Sierra 10.13.6 on a MacBook Pro with graphics processor acceleration disabled. The camera has the latest firmware. This doesn't occur with all images, but seemingly at random, and without any user input. In the Library Module, the images appear normally.  I experienced this phenomenon for the first time when I upgraded to LR 7.3.1, but prior to that, using LR 7.2 and 7.3, it did not occur. At first, opening the image in the Develop Module, the color appears as it should, see screen shot below:

Image is not available

However, after a few seconds, the color shifts, without my having entered any command or pressing any key, as in the screen shot below:

Image is not available

[ssprengel]

Can you provide the DNG?  Upload to somewhere like dropbox, googledrive, onedrive, and post a public share link to it, here.

[TheBilbo]

This is a different DNG, but it shows the same color shift—but be aware it is sporadic, it may not show the aberrant behavior each time it is viewed in the Develop module. Just import it, and do not invoke any actions:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqfakeskfncozkn/L1002092.DNG?dl=0

[TheBilbo]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqfakeskfncozkn/L1002092.DNG?dl=0

This DNG when viewed in LR 7.5 Develop Module shows a magenta wash when Fit is selected in Navigator

[ssprengel]

I'm on a PC and don't see what you're seeing happen.  I also don't see Embedded as a Camera Profile, either in LR 7.5 or ACR 10.5.

[TheBilbo]

Did you see that I'm running OS X 10.13.6? And yes, the absence of Embedded profiles is now a known and reported issue, for both the M262 and M240.

[TheBilbo]

I've spent hours documenting and reporting these issues with LR 7.5: Adobe, the ball is in your court.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Form Engineering - This is as-designed behavior - see Ashkay's notes in the forums link in the OP. 

1. Go To Profile Browser.
2. Click on the '+' drop down and select Manage Profiles.
3. Select "Legacy" group -> Save
4. In the profile browser, you will find a group called "Legacy"
5. Open the Legacy group to find the "embedded" profile.

[Todd Shaner]

Thanks Rikk! I've asked Ashkay the below question at the LR forum post.

If you make the 'Embedded' profile a Favorite in the Profile Browser's Legacy folder will that associate correctly with new files that are added later and appear in the 'Profile' pull-down list?

I tried it with two different Leica M model DNG files and it appears to work.

[johnrellis]

Hmm, the drawbacks of this design are pretty obvious: The camera manufacturer's embedded profile, assigned when the photo is first imported, mysteriously disappears if you change the profile to something different. That embedded profile gets hidden in a group called "Legacy", which is also hidden by default.  This was so mysterious that the focused attention of four ACPs / MVPs / Champions couldn't find it. Pity the less-experienced user who trips over this.

"Legacy" seems a poor group name for the default profile of a partner manufacturer's raw files (one of the few manufacturers to embrace DNG).  What's "legacy" about it?   So some design suggestions:

- Add Embedded to Favorites by default.

- Put the Embedded profile in a different group that's visible by default, not hidden, e.g. Adobe Raw (yes, it's not technically an Adobe-authored profile, but it comes from a close Adobe partner).

[johnrellis]

I changed this topic to Idea.

[Todd Shaner]

John requesting that the 'Embedded' profile in the Legacy folder be automatically assigned as a Favorite is an 'Idea, ' but not the original problem. So thank you for that.

In older versions of LR (7.2 and earlier?) the Embedded profile would "automatically" appear in the list of available profiles. This includes after doing a 'Save Metadata to File operation with a different camera profile. Both profiles were visible as the DNG Specification provides for saving multiple camera profiles to the DNG file. Adding the 'Embedded' Profile name entry to the pulldown list as a Favorite appears to "fix" both issues, which is IMHO a bug fix. Note that an actual copy of the DNG file's 'Embedded' camera profile is NOT actually saved to the local hard drive.

I know it's a matter of semantics, but I want to make sure users and Adobe Engineering fully understand the issue. Other corrections may need to be applied to insure proper operation across camera models that create DNGs with embedded camera profiles. For sure this will require more testing with different camera makes and models!