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No more Muse, what about DW?

Engaged ,
Mar 27, 2018 Mar 27, 2018

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I really don't know what do to after using Muse.

I started using the Dreamweaver with StudioMx  but few months ago started using Muse.

Muse......March 26, 2018 we will release the final feature improvement release ...

Adobe doesn't even recommend Dreamweaver.

Should I come back to Dw?

Really need you advice.

thank you for reading,

James

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Adobe Employee , Mar 28, 2018 Mar 28, 2018

Coming back to the original question about Dreamweaver. It's a copy-paste from another discussion, but I do hope you understand why.

Like I promised, I checked with the senior management about the future of Dreamweaver, and their answer was that they see no reason to stop developing the product. Dreamweaver will continue to exist, period.

I understand that no amount of reassurance will suffice, but I do want to put other Dreamweaver users visiting this post at ease.

I am marking my answer as corre

...

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Mentor ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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Good coders are often not good designers. Compare it to automobile design. A vehicle can be engineered to perfection, but if the visual design of the exterior and interior is not up to the same standards, then the car WILL NOT SELL. I think this is why our products still sell well after 20 years and numerous put-downs by coders who are not also designers.

Just my opinion... although we do have some anecdotal to back it up... at least where we are happy

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LEGEND ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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And that has to do with my post, how?

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Mentor ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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Makes perfect sense to me. Perhaps it's your post that is kind of vague The web is mature enough where making a web page should be possible without coding. Knowing code will always be an advantage, but it should not be mandatory. The frameworks are killing the web, not helping it. What we need are application developers (hell, Adobe DW Team) and plug-in developers (Hello, Project Seven) to take charge of giving people visual solutions that use efficient and proper code. Then designers and those folks obsessed with the idea that only coders should be allowed to make web pages without getting shamed can duke it out in a more fun environment

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LEGEND ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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Well you would say that, its a no brainer, you stand to make money out of anyone who can't code, why would you think any differently.  lts the neither or neithers that are killing the industry and its your kind of company along with stuff like Bootstrap that are attracting them

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Mentor ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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I forgot you do not make money. Please accept my heartfelt apology. It's a jolly good thing I don't sell prosthetics.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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ALsp  wrote

I forgot you do not make money. Please accept my heartfelt apology. It's a jolly good thing I don't sell prosthetics.

Money is not the be all and end of everything. Money is the route to al evil, I'm sure you have heard that phrase. Some pretty evil stuff going on in the world of web-development, all those extensions for one.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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Whilst I do agree with you AL, in that a more visual approach is possible, I also agree with Osgood in that a visual approach is stifling the web.

It's fine you making extensions, but do they bring the web any further forward. A buisness model that is also based on innovation is required, but doing that would probably not make financial sense for extension developers, whereas the platform extensions are built for should innovate, and lead the way.

As to my post, I was merely wondering if the big problem for Muse users not finding alternative programs, was more of a UI issue. Simply because having looked at coding alternatives, (VS Pro is overkill for simple projects, and Dw is just no longer in the running, (CC versions)) I found that the UI is as much a deciding factor as everything else combined.

Regarding the use of grids.

For that I'm wondering if developers have overdone the use, (e.g. does bootstrap 4 really require a grid system, when it uses flexbox) and if it is really required.

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Mentor ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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As to my post, I was merely wondering if the big problem for Muse users not finding alternative programs, was more of a UI issue. Simply because having looked at coding alternatives, (VS Pro is overkill for simple projects, and Dw is just no longer in the running, (CC versions)) I found that the UI is as much a deciding factor as everything else combined.

I guess there's a point in there, somewhere . But I think I made a few good ones, myself. The fact of the matter to me is that this is a Dreamweaver forum, populated by posts from people using what was once the most popular visual web design tool on the planet. While it now does okay for the occasional coder, the more typical user needs help, and wants help, an continually is shamed or insulted, along with makers of extensions... by a small handful of people who seem to thrive on such behavior for whatever reason. It's confounding, sometimes.

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LEGEND ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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I don't think my behaviour is any worse than yours.

You have already stated, (many time) that Dreamweaver is no longer what it was, its features are not what users want, most users use a CS version, people who code are rubbish and have no idea what they are doing, innovation in web development is something coders don't know about or if they do they don't know what they are doing.

You then complain that Adobe should build an extension manager, just so the 1:300 of your extensions they do make money out of drops to 0. You also say that Dw is no good without your extensions, and that they should not include anything new, so you also obviously think that Adobe should continue Dreamweaver development just for you.

The only thing that surprised me with the eol of muse, was that it was not Dw as well, but Adobe probably knows that the press reaction would have been -

"is Dw still going"?

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Mentor ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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I don't think either one of our behaviors is bad. We just have different points of view. I try to make my behavior more compatible with what I consider the more typical Dreamweaver user to want, while I guess you do, too . But what I won't do is engage in a debate that neither one of us can ever hope to win, and which is not really going to help anyone who might be scanning this forum for help. It would be nice if Adobe continued Dreamweaver just for me, but perhaps they will remove every single visual aid and ban extensions, just for a few people whom I shall not name .  But I did stop to re-read my posts an I'm pretty certain my differences with you have not allowed me to devolve into personal attacks at the level they have been wielded at me. And to WJT, put your popcorn away .

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Mentor ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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ALsp  wrote

And to WJT, put your popcorn away .

Come on, there was a dip and now the action is back, don't call "scene and cut" during the action parts.

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Mentor ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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LOL, good night everyone.

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Mentor ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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W_J_T  wrote

ALsp   wrote

And to WJT, put your popcorn away .

Come on, there was a dip and now the action is back, don't call "scene and cut" during the action parts.

popcorn.gif

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LEGEND ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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Entertainment in this forum has never been better.

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Mentor ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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I'm a classics type of guy. Most of what's called entertainment today is either infantile, exploitive,  or mean-spirited -- including this forum, sometimes . Besides, I'm a lot better at the sort of thing you are looking for when I'm live and in person. And in your face. Weeds out the lesser bullies, you know?

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LEGEND ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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ALsp  wrote

Weeds out the lesser bullies, you know?

Couldnt agree more! Entertaiment is what you perceive it to be.........different stokes for different folks.

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Mentor ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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ALsp  wrote

Besides, I'm a lot better at the sort of thing you are looking for when I'm live and in person. And in your face. Weeds out the lesser bullies, you know?

Internet courage and keyboard cowboys - across social media, forums, blogs, comment sections, emails, texts, etc., are certainly eroding society and the internet far more so and at a faster rate than any WYSIWYG web editors. The disconnect and misinterpretation even without malice being present causes all types of problems and responses which cause further issues.

Sadly we are all guilty of it.

Einstein may have said it best ( Even if he never said it at all ).

Einstein.png

But thats a whole other story to get into, with 24 hour new cycles, instant access to everything, the list is so pervasive, its just all part of our daily lives. It takes more effort to rise above and forge a way without all of it than to just be apart of it. Perhaps thats the intention, much like fast food, look what that did to society.

Easy is not always better.

😉

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Community Expert ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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But thats a whole other story to get into, with 24 hour new cycles, instant access to everything, the list is so pervasive, its just all part of our daily lives. It takes more effort to rise above and forge a way without all of it than to just be apart of it. Perhaps thats the intention, much like fast food, look what that did to society.

yes... you're so right... that bring us back to a thread I have try to start with Nancy some times ago...

there are so many out there....

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Mentor ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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I thought this thread needs a visual.

mike-tysons-punchout.jpg

At least visually denoting the last handful of pages.

Of course I am just kidding, good discussions though.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 08, 2018 Apr 08, 2018

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Os, Paula,

I admit to having a little trouble following the real meaning of the interventions. Since I have been working in the web industry, and communication tools, ie since Aldus and BBS ... I have always applied the standards, although these, apart from SGML and PostCript, have had a hard time winning at the start ...

this is to say that I am quite demanding in terms of code quality and workflow.

but here, and without wanting to denigrate anyone, we are on a forum of Dreamweaver ... it goes without saying that the general profile of the users is not to be coder, or code oriented ...

so, in my opinion, people like Al, as well as frameworks (or libraries)... or given scripts ready to be used.... are major assets ... (either if some are not pure)  and graphic interfaces can only help designers to contribute from their imaginations , and creativity, to evolve the web.

it does not kill the industry, quite the contrary, it gives it a fresh air

to have a philophic discussion about the code, its use and its future is one thing, but to be vindictive against the designer saying that it is imperative to learn the code to participate in the evolution of the web is quite presumptuous ...

it's like as if the designers were saying ... ugh ... the web hypra talented developers have interfaces worthy of the scenery of science movies ficion 40s ... we still see the strings .... (note. .. which is not so fake)

so instead of cutting web developers in two ... good and bad (if we follow the reasoning so far) ... why not spend this energy to improve the capacity of everyone ... without to force them to do one way ... or another ...

again, we are here on a forum which at the base is not really oriented coders ... is not it?

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LEGEND ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

it does not kill the industry, quite the contrary, it gives it a fresh air

How can you say it doesn't kill the industy. All industries are being slowly killed, not only web-develoment,  because of 'automation'. Jobs go because its a DIY (Do it Yourself) world we now live in. The very same websites that can now be done using WIx, Webflow and all the others would have been done by a professional web-developer 10 years ago, so it 'kills' the professional industry.

It really doesnt matter to me to be honest, that's just how it is. It effects me very little but at least I think Im seeing something that you and a few others are not or most likely dont want to, some maybe because they make money out of it, which is fine.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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How can you say it doesn't kill the industy. All industries are being slowly killed, not only web-develoment,  because of 'automation'.

where did you see that the web industry was slowly killed ???? I never saw the web as much bigger and bigger every day ?

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LEGEND ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

where did you see that the web industry was slowly killed ???? I never saw the web as much bigger and bigger every day ?

Yes, and the majority of websites are produced and managed by................ ......bigger does not always equate to a better experience.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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ok I understand the translation... you mean that it affect your own business... ok I better understand... sorry I have some slow slowdown in understanding in addition to translation

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LEGEND ,
Apr 09, 2018 Apr 09, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

ok I understand the translation... you mean that it affect your own business... ok I better understand... sorry I have some slow slowdown in understanding in addition to translation

It doesnt really affect my business because I'm not really 'actively' looking for any these days. My situation is the least of my problems because I dont depend on web-development to make a living. I suspect its harder for real developers starting these days who want to be able freelance, start their own business, or maybe even get a leg on the ladder in paid employment in the industry, as result of it being opened up to skilless people.

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