Framemaker 9 PDF exports with red boxes around text areas

[mHenderson1]

I have a doc, made in FM 7, using version 9

When I make a PDF i get boxes around some of the text. It wasn't there during FM design.

example

(see red)

Please help

[Arnis_Gubins]

You're link is broken. Please re-post and explicitly state the destination url.

Are the red-boxes by any chance links in the PDF? Are you using Shlomo Perets' PDF Timesavers?

[mHenderson1]

new link

http://www.lorencook.com/PDFs/Pages%20from%20AC%20catalog%20-do%20not%20delete.PDF

Sorry

[Arnis_Gubins]

The box is rendered as a 1pt line using Pantone 186 CVC.

I suspect that this is in your FM file and is definitely not an artificat of the PDF creation process.

[mHenderson1]

Arnis Gubins wrote:

The box is rendered as a 1pt line using Pantone 186 CVC.

I suspect that this is in your FM file and is definitely not an artificat of the PDF creation process.

I agree but I don;t know why it shows up. It's not shown in FM.

[peter_minneapolis]

mHenderson@lorencook wrote:

Arnis Gubins wrote:

The box is rendered as a 1pt line using Pantone 186 CVC.

I suspect that this is in your FM file and is definitely not an artificat of the PDF creation process.

I agree but I don;t know why it shows up. It's not shown in FM.

It's not an Acrobat comment, nor on a PDF layer. Is it possible it's in a color that's excluded from the active color view - View > Color > Views - hence invisible on screen, but the excluded color insists on printing anyway? Perhaps there's a setting in the PDF output that's forcing this to occur (FM not available at the moment.)
HTH

Regards,

Peter
_______________________
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

[Arnis_Gubins]

If a colour is set to Invisible in the Color Views, then it will never get placed in the output stream - FM's very good about that aspect.

I don't know of any other FM setting that would hide a colour in FM and yet have it appear in the output.

It might be possible if two objects were placed on top of each other, i.e. text frames, with one set to have no fill nor outline and the other has the outline. If the "no fill" one was on top, then it might "hide" the lower one in the screen display. However, on output, the lower one would show, as the "printer" has no way of erasing/covering-up a line once it has been rendered (i.e. the second one is drawn with no "ink" so it doesn't cover up the lower one).

- Just tried it and it does work that way! It takes a bit of finagling to line the two boxes up, but when it does, the one can cover up the other in FM (i.e. you can't see it) yet render in the PDF.

@mHenderson: try to do a marquee select around the text frame containing the red outlined text and then check the Graphics > Object Properties. If you've got more than one item selected (i.e. a hidden frame), then FM wil complain. Alternatively, do a Select All on the page (ctrl+A) to see if there are mulitple objects where the outlined text is.

[mHenderson1]

Arnis Gubins wrote:

If a colour is set to Invisible in the Color Views, then it will never get placed in the output stream - FM's very good about that aspect.

I don't know of any other FM setting that would hide a colour in FM and yet have it appear in the output.

It might be possible if two objects were placed on top of each other, i.e. text frames, with one set to have no fill nor outline and the other has the outline. If the "no fill" one was on top, then it might "hide" the lower one in the screen display. However, on output, the lower one would show, as the "printer" has no way of erasing/covering-up a line once it has been rendered (i.e. the second one is drawn with no "ink" so it doesn't cover up the lower one).

- Just tried it and it does work that way! It takes a bit of finagling to line the two boxes up, but when it does, the one can cover up the other in FM (i.e. you can't see it) yet render in the PDF.

@mHenderson: try to do a marquee select around the text frame containing the red outlined text and then check the Graphics > Object Properties. If you've got more than one item selected (i.e. a hidden frame), then FM wil complain. Alternatively, do a Select All on the page (ctrl+A) to see if there are mulitple objects where the outlined text is.

It not an overlaping text box. Sorry

[Bob_Niland]

The box is rendered as a 1pt line using Pantone 186 CVC.

It's probably worth pointing out that Frame does not invoke any Pantone colors by default. Some user action, at some time, in some object, was needed to cause this to end up in the PDF.

I suspect that this is in your FM file and is definitely not an artifact of the PDF creation process.

The first place to look would be in a MIF save of the document. Sounds like that's already been done, with no joy.

The next place I'd look would be in the maker.ini file (just because it's easy to look there )

Other usual suspects include text insets, and objects imported by reference from EPS, PDF and other graphic file formats that can support named color declarations (this might aso include DWG and DXF).

[Bob_Niland]

The box is rendered as a 1pt line using Pantone 186 CVC.

Visible text boxes in my documents (FM7.1) are just simple paths.

This box is different. When I open the PDF in Illustrator CS5, I first get some alerts I've not seen before (in addition to the not unexpected font missing):

• An unknown shading type was encountered.
• An unknown imaging construct was encountered.

When I deconstruct the page and isolate the box(es), there are two objects there:

• <Path>
  which appears to be an invisible Frame text box outline, and
  
• <Non-Native Art>
  which is the box with the red border.

The Non-Native Art is new to me, and refuses to be further deconstructed.

I'm leaning toward the second shooter theory here; that there is a second object tagging along.

[mHenderson1]

Are the red-boxes by any chance links in the PDF? .NO

[mHenderson1]

If I make a box "bring to front" it usually results in the red box deleting in the PDF. But there is always a box in the back.

[AxialInfo]

you might consider saving the FM file as MIF and then looking at the MIF using the wonderful freebie MIFBrowser, from Graham Wideman, from here:

Wideman Adobe FrameMaker Topics

to find the problem area do a search for the string that is in the title

"Downblast Centrifugal

Exhaust Ventilator

Roof Mounted

Belt Drive"

although just pasting it here it looks like you might have soft carriage returns in it which will make it necessary to just search for the two-word segments.

After you find the phrase, use the left navigation area to walk "up" the MIF file, looking for the specific structure that those words are in (is it a text box, or rather a graphic frame inside a text box, correct?) Is this an anchored frame, or is it just floating? If it's anchored, where is it anchored?

In the MIF, see if you can identify any odd sounding properties of the text box or graphic frame. The MIF reference manual is a PDF found in the FM documentation folder.

Also, one other possibility is that there's something funky with the red swash that goes across the page that's somehow "contaminating" the text frame. What kind of graphic type is the red swash? Could you take a copy of the FM file and remove the swash and then make a PDF, to see if that solves the red outline.

edit: additional questions: are the swash and the text frame on the body page or on the master page? When Arnis suggested checking for graphics behind the text frame, did you also check the master page(s) as well as the body pages?

Sheila

[mHenderson1]

AxialInfo wrote:

you might consider saving the FM file as MIF and then looking at the MIF using the wonderful freebie MIFBrowser, from Graham Wideman, from here:

Wideman Adobe FrameMaker Topics

to find the problem area do a search for the string that is in the title

"Downblast Centrifugal

Exhaust Ventilator

Roof Mounted

Belt Drive"

although just pasting it here it looks like you might have soft carriage returns in it which will make it necessary to just search for the two-word segments.

After you find the phrase, use the left navigation area to walk "up" the MIF file, looking for the specific structure that those words are in (is it a text box, or rather a graphic frame inside a text box, correct?) Is this an anchored frame, or is it just floating? If it's anchored, where is it anchored?

In the MIF, see if you can identify any odd sounding properties of the text box or graphic frame. The MIF reference manual is a PDF found in the FM documentation folder.

Also, one other possibility is that there's something funky with the red swash that goes across the page that's somehow "contaminating" the text frame. What kind of graphic type is the red swash? Could you take a copy of the FM file and remove the swash and then make a PDF, to see if that solves the red outline.

edit: additional questions: are the swash and the text frame on the body page or on the master page? When Arnis suggested checking for graphics behind the text frame, did you also check the master page(s) as well as the body pages?

Sheila

I tried the program:

<TextFlow
<Notes
> # end of Notes
<Para
  <Unique 1291794>
  <Pgf
   <PgfTag `Body'>
   <PgfUseNextTag No>
   <PgfNextTag `'>
   <PgfAlignment Right>
   <PgfFIndent  0.0">
   <PgfLIndent  0.0">
   <PgfRIndent  0.0">
   <PgfFIndentRelative No>
   <PgfFIndentOffset  0.0">
   <PgfTopSeparator `'>
   <PgfTopSepAtIndent No>
   <PgfTopSepOffset  0.0">
   <PgfBotSeparator `'>
   <PgfBotSepAtIndent No>
   <PgfBotSepOffset  0.0">
   <PgfPlacement Anywhere>
   <PgfPlacementStyle Normal>
   <PgfRunInDefaultPunct `. '>
   <PgfSpBefore  0.0 pt>
   <PgfSpAfter  0.0 pt>
   <PgfWithPrev No>
   <PgfWithNext No>
   <PgfBlockSize 1>
   <PgfFont
    <FTag `'>
    <FPlatformName `W.Arial.R.700'>
    <FFamily `Arial'>
    <FVar `Regular'>
    <FWeight `Bold'>
    <FAngle `Regular'>
    <FEncoding `FrameRoman'>
    <FSize  14.0 pt>
    <FUnderlining FNoUnderlining>
    <FOverline No>
    <FStrike No>
    <FChangeBar No>
    <FOutline No>
    <FShadow No>
    <FPairKern Yes>
    <FTsume No>
    <FCase FAsTyped>
    <FPosition FNormal>
    <FDX  0.0%>
    <FDY  0.0%>
    <FDW  0.0%>
    <FStretch  100.0%>
    <FLanguage USEnglish>
    <FLocked No>
    <FSeparation 0>
    <FColor `Black'>
   > # end of PgfFont
   <PgfLineSpacing Fixed>
   <PgfLeading  3.0 pt>
   <PgfAutoNum No>
   <PgfNumTabs 0>
   <PgfHyphenate Yes>
   <HyphenMaxLines 2>
   <HyphenMinPrefix 3>
   <HyphenMinSuffix 3>
   <HyphenMinWord 5>
   <PgfLetterSpace No>
   <PgfMinWordSpace 90>
   <PgfOptWordSpace 100>
   <PgfMaxWordSpace 110>
   <PgfMinJRomanLetterSpace 0>
   <PgfOptJRomanLetterSpace 25>
   <PgfMaxJRomanLetterSpace 50>
   <PgfMinJLetterSpace 0>
   <PgfOptJLetterSpace 0>
   <PgfMaxJLetterSpace 10>
   <PgfYakumonoType Floating>
   <PgfAcrobatLevel 0>
   <PgfPDFStructureLevel 5>
   <PgfLanguage USEnglish>
   <PgfCellAlignment Top>
   <PgfCellMargins  0.0 pt 0.0 pt 0.0 pt 0.0 pt>
   <PgfCellLMarginFixed No>
   <PgfCellTMarginFixed No>
   <PgfCellRMarginFixed No>
   <PgfCellBMarginFixed No>
   <PgfLocked No>
  > # end of Pgf
  <ParaLine
   <TextRectID 119>
   <String `Downblast Centrifugal'>
  > # end of ParaLine
> # end of Para
<Para
  <Unique 1291795>
  <PgfTag `Body'>
  <Pgf
   <PgfAlignment Right>
   <PgfFont
    <FTag `'>
    <FPlatformName `W.Arial.R.700'>
    <FFamily `Arial'>
    <FVar `Regular'>
    <FWeight `Bold'>
    <FAngle `Regular'>
    <FEncoding `FrameRoman'>
    <FSize  14.0 pt>
    <FUnderlining FNoUnderlining>
    <FOverline No>
    <FStrike No>
    <FChangeBar No>
    <FOutline No>
    <FShadow No>
    <FPairKern Yes>
    <FTsume No>
    <FCase FAsTyped>
    <FPosition FNormal>
    <FDX  0.0%>
    <FDY  0.0%>
    <FDW  0.0%>
    <FStretch  100.0%>
    <FLanguage USEnglish>
    <FLocked No>
    <FSeparation 0>
    <FColor `Black'>
   > # end of PgfFont
   <PgfLeading  3.0 pt>
  > # end of Pgf
  <ParaLine
   <String `Exhaust Ventilator'>
  > # end of ParaLine
> # end of Para
<Para
  <Unique 1291796>
  <PgfTag `Body'>
  <Pgf
   <PgfAlignment Right>
   <PgfFont
    <FTag `'>
    <FPlatformName `W.Arial.R.700'>
    <FFamily `Arial'>
    <FVar `Regular'>
    <FWeight `Bold'>
    <FAngle `Regular'>
    <FEncoding `FrameRoman'>
    <FSize  14.0 pt>
    <FUnderlining FNoUnderlining>
    <FOverline No>
    <FStrike No>
    <FChangeBar No>
    <FOutline No>
    <FShadow No>
    <FPairKern Yes>
    <FTsume No>
    <FCase FAsTyped>
    <FPosition FNormal>
    <FDX  0.0%>
    <FDY  0.0%>
    <FDW  0.0%>
    <FStretch  100.0%>
    <FLanguage USEnglish>
    <FLocked No>
    <FSeparation 0>
    <FColor `Black'>
   > # end of PgfFont
   <PgfLeading  3.0 pt>
  > # end of Pgf
  <ParaLine
   <String `Roof Mounted'>
  > # end of ParaLine
> # end of Para
<Para
  <Unique 1291797>
  <PgfTag `Body'>
  <Pgf
   <PgfAlignment Right>
   <PgfFont
    <FTag `'>
    <FPlatformName `W.Arial.R.700'>
    <FFamily `Arial'>
    <FVar `Regular'>
    <FWeight `Bold'>
    <FAngle `Regular'>
    <FEncoding `FrameRoman'>
    <FSize  14.0 pt>
    <FUnderlining FNoUnderlining>
    <FOverline No>
    <FStrike No>
    <FChangeBar No>
    <FOutline No>
    <FShadow No>
    <FPairKern Yes>
    <FTsume No>
    <FCase FAsTyped>
    <FPosition FNormal>
    <FDX  0.0%>
    <FDY  0.0%>
    <FDW  0.0%>
    <FStretch  100.0%>
    <FLanguage USEnglish>
    <FLocked No>
    <FSeparation 0>
    <FColor `Black'>
   > # end of PgfFont
   <PgfLeading  3.0 pt>
  > # end of Pgf
  <ParaLine
   <String `Belt Drive'>
  > # end of ParaLine
> # end of Para
> # end of TextFlow

I don't see the red in there

I made another pdf, after deleting the red bar (it's a eps.) and the reb boxes are still there

        I'm not using any master.

Thanks for the advice anyhow    

-Matt

[Harish_Dhawan]

Hi Matt,

May I know if you are using the "Convert CMYK colors to RGB" option? If this option is turned OFF in PDF setup dialog and you DO NOT require CMYK output in PDF, you can try after turning it ON.

~Harish

[mHenderson1]

I use Convert to RBG off because this is going to print.

[Van Kurtz]

In an earlier post, you said...

If I make a box "bring to front" it usually results in the red box deleting in the PDF. But there is always a box in the back.

Make a copy of the file, just in case.

In FrameMaker go to the page where the red box displays in the PDF. Select View > Borders. Holding the Control key down, click the BORDER of the text box containing the main text flow. Press the Delete key. FrameMaker will complain but delete it anyway. Do you see the red box now, or any graphic frames? If so, delete it and reapply the master page for that page.

In another post, you referred to deleting a red bar that was an eps file. What was that? If that was the red box and it came back, then you need to check the master pages AND the reference pages, because the eps file could be used in one or both places.

Van

[mHenderson1]

Van Kurtz wrote:

Make a copy of the file, just in case.

In FrameMaker go to the page where the red box displays in the PDF. Select View > Borders. Holding the Control key down, click the BORDER of the text box containing the main text flow. Press the Delete key. FrameMaker will complain but delete it anyway. Do you see the red box now, or any graphic frames? If so, delete it and reapply the master page for that page.

Van

Deleting the text box deleted the text and the red box. - Not an ok solution. I have 80 some pages. I don't want to delete and retype this on every page.

Van Kurtz wrote:

In another post, you referred to deleting a red bar that was an eps file. What was that? If that was the red box and it came back, then you need to check the master pages AND the reference pages, because the eps file could be used in one or both places.

Van

The eps is an Illustrator graphic. I can delete it, but the red box stays.

Thanks

[Van Kurtz]

Matt,

Deleting the text box deleted the text and the red box. - Not an ok solution. I have 80 some pages. I don't want to delete and retype this on every page.

If the red box contains some text that you do not want to delete, it sounds to me that the text frame holding that text has a red border. You want to delete the red border, NOT the box itself (text frame), because it holds some text.

Wherever the box is, and it sounds as if you can find it because you can delete it, select its frame. If it is an anchored frame, you can click the frame. If it is a text frame, you may have to hold the Control key to select the frame. Then in the graphics toolbar, set the pen pattern to None.

Van

[peter_minneapolis]

mHenderson@lorencook wrote:

Van Kurtz wrote:

Make a copy of the file, just in case.

In FrameMaker go to the page where the red box displays in the PDF. Select View > Borders. Holding the Control key down, click the BORDER of the text box containing the main text flow. Press the Delete key. FrameMaker will complain but delete it anyway. Do you see the red box now, or any graphic frames? If so, delete it and reapply the master page for that page.

Van

Deleting the text box deleted the text and the red box. - Not an ok solution. I have 80 some pages. I don't want to delete and retype this on every page.

Van Kurtz wrote:

In another post, you referred to deleting a red bar that was an eps file. What was that? If that was the red box and it came back, then you need to check the master pages AND the reference pages, because the eps file could be used in one or both places.

Van

The eps is an Illustrator graphic. I can delete it, but the red box stays.

Thanks

There's got to be something invisible in the FrameMaker file that's rendering visibly in the PDF.

OK, I've asked "Columbo" the secret of his "one more thing that's been bothering me" approach. Turns out, it's just an inspired wild guess. last inspired wild guess:

It's possible that the box is a frame that's grouped with the text frame, behind it; it could be the border or fill, or both, of the grouped item, and just a smidge larger, but such a small smidge that it's not visible at normal magnification. Acrobat sometimes renders thin lines invisible, and sometimes larger than original. So, first select the text frame and choose Graphics to see if Ungroup is an option. If it is, ungroup, then deselect, and select the front item. If it's the red one, delete it. If it's the text frame, send it to back, then select the front red one, and delete it. Then recreate a PDF to see if this fixes it.

Gong back to my suspicion about a malfunctioning invisible color setting, if there's no red in the document, other than this phantom occurrence of red, try setting a color view that has no red, using View > Color > Views. Create a view without red, and apply it, then try the PDF. Even if there is red in the doc, it's worth a try to see what happens.

Going back to the MIFbrowser approach, try searching for "red" in the MIF text. I'm not near FM, so I can't look to see if red might be expressed differently, such as r-somepercentage.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[mHenderson1]

peter at knowhowpro wrote:

There's got to be something invisible in the FrameMaker file that's rendering visibly in the PDF.

OK, I've asked "Columbo" the secret of his "one more thing that's been bothering me" approach. Turns out, it's just an inspired wild guess. last inspired wild guess:

It's possible that the box is a frame that's grouped with the text frame, behind it; it could be the border or fill, or both, of the grouped item, and just a smidge larger, but such a small smidge that it's not visible at normal magnification. Acrobat sometimes renders thin lines invisible, and sometimes larger than original. So, first select the text frame and choose Graphics to see if Ungroup is an option. If it is, ungroup, then deselect, and select the front item. If it's the red one, delete it. If it's the text frame, send it to back, then select the front red one, and delete it. Then recreate a PDF to see if this fixes it.

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

I know there is not grouping objects, thanks

Gong back to my suspicion about a malfunctioning invisible color setting, if there's no red in the document, other than this phantom occurrence of red, try setting a color view that has no red, using View > Color > Views. Create a view without red, and apply it, then try the PDF. Even if there is red in the doc, it's worth a try to see what happens.
Going back to the MIFbrowser approach, try searching for "red" in the MIF text. I'm not near FM, so I can't look to see if red might be expressed differently, such as r-somepercentage. 
HTH
Regards,
Peter

I do use the color for fonts, its a company color, so I need it

Thanks

[AxialInfo]

You would need to look a bit further "up" in the mif, Matt, to see the type of "container object" the text flow that you found is in, and to see if it has any "red" property. There may be more than one container, in other words the text flow could be inside a graphic frame that itself is inside some other object, perhaps even a cell of a table.

Could you clarify what you said, "I'm not using any master."  Just to be sure we're clear, when you're looking at the full page you're almost certainly looking at what is called the Body Page. If you then go to View > Master Page, you would be looking at the Master page that has been applied to this page. Are there any objects on the Master page in the same area as the problem red box?

Was this document was created by some automated process? Was it imported from Word or some other source?

[Arnis_Gubins]

Matt,

From what you show in the MIF snippet, it might be TextRect (text box)  with <ID 119> that has the Pantone coloured border. Also try searching for "<ObColor `PANTONE 186 CVC'>" to identify all of the Pantone coloured objects in the MIF file.

A quick check would be to copy the contents of the one page and paste that into a new file. If the red is gone, then it may be on the Master page or hidden behind the text frame. If it still creates an outlined border in the PDF, then it might be beneficial for you to post that one-page file somewhere so that we can have a look at it.

[AxialInfo]

From a sample file of Matt's I've figured out the cause of the red boxes, it's a problem with explicitly (or not) specifying knockout and overprint settings. When the files are generated in FM7 on the Mac they're fine, but there's a subtle change in the way FM9/Win applies defaults, resulting in these red boxes that represent the "gap" as discussed in the FM online help.

for reference, here's the online help for preparing for print, which shows the difference between knockout and overprint:

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FrameMaker/9.0/Using/WS3A713448-91C0-44bc- ABE0-C2849D7021D6.html

p. 77 of the MIF reference manual:

You  can specify overprinting for a color. However, if  overprinting is set  for a graphic object, the object's setting takes  precedence. When a  graphic object has no overprint statement, the  overprint setting for  the color takes precedence.

I'll post a summary to this thread later today.

Sheila

[peter_minneapolis]

AxialInfo wrote:

From a sample file of Matt's I've figured out the cause of the red boxes, it's a problem with explicitly (or not) specifying knockout and overprint settings. When the files are generated in FM7 on the Mac they're fine, but there's a subtle change in the way FM9/Win applies defaults, resulting in these red boxes that represent the "gap" as discussed in the FM online help.

for reference, here's the online help for preparing for print, which shows the difference between knockout and overprint:

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FrameMaker/9.0/Using/WS3A713448-91C0-44bc- ABE0-C2849D7021D6.html

p. 77 of the MIF reference manual:

You  can specify overprinting for a color. However, if  overprinting is set  for a graphic object, the object's setting takes  precedence. When a  graphic object has no overprint statement, the  overprint setting for  the color takes precedence.

I'll post a summary to this thread later today.

Sheila

YAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY!!!!!!!

Looks like we all had a different piece of the elephant, but Sheila's seen the whole beast.

Great coup, Sheila.

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices