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Is Adobe Standard Camera Profile really the same for all Cameras? (LR and Camera RAW

Community Beginner ,
Mar 26, 2021 Mar 26, 2021

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I have been using Adobe Standard / Adobe Neutral as my go to Camera Profile (DCP) for the last couple of years, as I was under the impression, that these profiles would offer consistent colors even between cameras of different make. In fact, Adobe says that: "The Adobe Standard DCPs give photographers a common, baseline interpretation of color that is consistent from camera to camera." (https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/digital-negative.html#resources; first link)

 

However, I have come to seriously doubt this, as I have found my Nikon D750 produces picutres that are leaning much more towards magenta than what, for example, my Panasonic G81 does. I noticed this when taking photos of the interiour of the Vienna State Opera, which always looked great in LR when shot with my G81, but for some reason, using the same profile ("Adobe Neutral") looked horrible on my D750. I don't have a direct comparison between G81 and D750 but below I can show you the difference between "Camera Natural" (left) and "Adobe Neutral" profiles on the D750 shot (right)

 

NKN_7745.jpgNKN_7747.jpg

 

When using an Adobe Profile, all the Golden accents are lost and the whole shot looks terrible. This is not a WB issue either, as that remains unchanged. I was also sure that my G81 did not show this weird shift towards magenta, so I took a couple of test shots at home:

NKN_8119.jpgNKN_8119-2.jpgP2050566.jpg

Here we have

1) D750 Adobe Neutral

2) D750 Camera Natural

3) G81 Adobe Neutral

 

All settings are the same (except for aperture/shutterspeed).

 

Notice how the "golden" color of the wood (this is how it looks IRL) is still perfectly there when using Adobe Neutral on the G81, while the same Settings on the D750 give me a very magenta image. Curiously, setting the D750 shot to "Camera Natural" looks quite similar to what the G81 delivers with Adobe Neutral (more what I would expect). What is going on here?

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Bug, Presets or profiles, Problem or error, Windows

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Adobe Community Professional , Mar 28, 2021 Mar 28, 2021
After sleeping on this issue I recalled a change Adobe made to the Adobe Standard camera profile. Unfortunately, all of the posts I made in the Adobe Forum documenting the issue have been deleted with the latest forum software update. Fortunately, I have a Word document saved with some of the information as shown below. I did further investigation and it appears the Adobe Standard profile metrics have been "silently" changed by Adobe sometime in Q3 2014. All Canon and perhaps all other make ca...

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 26, 2021 Mar 26, 2021

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I suggest taking a picture of a similar scene using both cameras with the same compostion and then uploading the raw files to Dropbox or other file sharing site. This will help determine "What is going on?"

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Community Beginner ,
Mar 27, 2021 Mar 27, 2021

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https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jvoakrwdvo4bwbu/AACva3dW9O2XG-_jfx_GVy38a?dl=0

 

Here you go, it's the two files I compared above. I did mistakenly set two different WB's on the cameras, but just do the WB in LR/another RAW-Editor of choice.

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Engaged ,
Mar 27, 2021 Mar 27, 2021

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quote

I have been using Adobe Standard / Adobe Neutral as my go to Camera Profile (DCP) for the last couple of years, as I was under the impression, that these profiles would offer consistent colors even between cameras of different make. In fact, Adobe says that: "The Adobe Standard DCPs give photographers a common, baseline interpretation of color that is consistent from camera to camera." (https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/digital-negative.html#resources; first link)

 

Thanks for posting the pictures.  I'm taking a stab at this because I just  started to explore the Profiles in LrC.

 

I was not able to find the quote you referenced since I was not able to determine the first link (the zip file?). I also suspect that the standard you are looking at for DNG has to do with others using DNG and not necessarily for how LrC coverts RAW to DNG which I assume you did with your pictures.

 

As to the differences, I think they are to be expected because of the differences in the sensors and the amount of information collected (see attached).

 

It is not possible for a DNG file to have equal representation across different sensors because there are varying degrees of information captured and  sensor quality. The examples I showed can be questioned I know, but I think the differences are reflected in the histogram differences between the two. The differences are even more pronounced when you look at the histogram in the Tone Curve.

 

IMHO, you are seeing the difference between the picture quality of your two cameras.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 27, 2021 Mar 27, 2021

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Not at my workstation right now, so I can't check the examples. Generally, however:

 

The camera profile is independent from white balance.

 

So to compare two profiles, match white balance first. And again, a visually identical white balance won't necessarily give identical number readouts. There is no "absolute" white balance, there's no sensor in the camera that records the actual quality of the light. This is all read and calculated from the image, such as it is.

 

The white balance numbers you read out is the amount needed to compensate for the color cast in the file. Once a visually neutral balance is achieved, those are the numbers you get, and this depends on the actual process, not just different raw processors, but also different cameras.

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 27, 2021 Mar 27, 2021

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"This is not a WB issue either, as that remains unchanged."

 

In the DNG files uploaded you have the WB set to 3300 +8 for both of them. The assumption being that they were shot with the same lighting so should have the same WB settings. Using the LrC WB Eyedropper on the white area of the face decal on the speaker I get 3350 + 7 for the NKN_8119.dng and 3300 +13 P2050566.dng. It's a small difference, but typical for different camera models or even the same model camera. With these WB settings and all of the other settings at 0 defaults they look very similar with the Adobe Neutral profile. If you want to get closer color matching I suggest purchasing a Color Checker Passport and making custom dual-illuminant profiles for both cameras. More details at the embedded links.

 

Tried uploading a screenshot, but getting a server busy error. I'll try again later

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 27, 2021 Mar 27, 2021

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Here's a screenshot of the two files with WB 3350 + 7 for the NKN_8119.dng and 3300 +13 P2050566.dng and all other settings at 0 defaults with Adobe Neutral profile.

 

WB Corrected.jpg

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Community Beginner ,
Mar 27, 2021 Mar 27, 2021

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daehxxiD_0-1616910373521.png

 

... A visually identical white balance won't necessarily give identical number readouts. There is no "absolute" white balance, there's no sensor in the camera that records the actual quality of the light. This is all read and calculated from the image, such as it is.

 

The white balance numbers you read out is the amount needed to compensate for the color cast in the file. Once a visually neutral balance is achieved, those are the numbers you get, and this depends on the actual process, not just different raw processors, but also different cameras.

 

 


By @D Fosse

 

Thanks! I genuinely did not know this. I thought WB is an absolut number, i.e. it's an actua measurement, not a value to correct for a certain color cast that sensors record. The more you know! 🙂

 

Either way, even if I do the custom WB in LR-C on both cameras; while the shots get more similar, the Adobe Neutral shot looks quite different between the two, remaining much more magenta for the Nikon Shot (as shown by @Todd Shaner 's post). Using the "Camera Flat" Profile for the Nikon is actually a lot closer in terms of color to the Adobe Neutral-Profile for Panasonic. I think this is still quite weird.

 

I will follow Todd's suggestion and create a custom profile with a color checker to see if I can alleviate this issue. But it seems odd, considering Adobe writes they actually get their profiles doing exactly the same thing. I think the more sane solution for me would be to simply use the camera emulation profiles and stick to camera flat with the Nikon.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 28, 2021 Mar 28, 2021

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Thing to realize is that the profiles Adobe generates are with a single (or only a few) copy of the camera. There is significant variation between copies of the same camera. This is why the colorchecker charts are useful if you are interested in accurate rendering. Humans are very good at seeing these small variations when two images are put next to each other while in absolute colorimetric space the variations might be tiny. Also there is surprisingly a lot of variation in color rendeering between lenses.

 

White balance as used in camera is definitely not an absolute scale like temperature would be. It is based on the assumption that the light spectrum approximates a black body spectrum. This is not even true for sunlight where lots of wavelengths are filtered by atmospheric conditions, but completely untrue for mosty sources of artificial light. Then it starts being dependent on the way the white balance is measured what values your camera reports. Rarely do the values from two cameras, even when shooting a calibrated grey card, coincide.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 28, 2021 Mar 28, 2021

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After sleeping on this issue I recalled a change Adobe made to the Adobe Standard camera profile. Unfortunately, all of the posts I made in the Adobe Forum documenting the issue have been deleted with the latest forum software update. Fortunately, I have a Word document saved with some of the information as shown below.

 

I did further investigation and it appears the Adobe Standard profile metrics have been "silently" changed by Adobe sometime in Q3 2014. All Canon and perhaps all other make camera models introduced since Q3 2014 have Adobe Standard profiles with lower color saturation. In short it looks like Adobe has changed the "standard." It's unlikely they will "fix" these profiles since it appears to have been done on purpose. This means it will be necessary to "adjust" image files shot with new camera models to maintain the same appearance as older models. I couldn't achieve satisfactory results simply cranking up the LR Saturation control or using DPE to modify the profile settings. The best solution is to use a ColorChecker Passport and create new profiles for ALL of your camera models both old and new to match them. There's no guarantee that will be perfect either since the current Adobe profile is used as the "Base Profile" when using the X-Rite plugin or DPE.

 

I also checked the Nikon D5 and D750 models and they have the same lower color saturation Adobe Standard camera profiles. It appears new Nikon cameras and perhaps ALL manufacturers cameras released since Q3 2014 are affected. Standardized test Raw image files were downloaded from http://www.imaging-resource.com/ under Samples> Thumbnails in each camera review.

 

Notice the lower color saturation in the Nikon D750 image.

Panasonic G81 G85 Series vs Nikon D750 Adobe Standard.jpg

 

You can use the DNG Profile Editor to create a corrected D750 Adobe Standard or simply use the LrC Calibration panel with the below settings. Using a ColorChecker Passport to create custom camera profiles may also work, but it needs to use a Base Profile such as the exisiting Adobe Standard profile. So they may also be affected with lower color saturation

 

Nikon D750 Adobe Standard Correction.jpg

 

You can download and install a Nikon D750 corrected Adobe Standard camera profile I created using the DNG Profile Editor at the below Dropbox link. Install it in the below folder location and then restart LrC to load it.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ytqlcmu52weag1/Nikon%20D750%20Legacy%20Adobe%20Standard.dcp?dl=0

 

Windows—C: \ Users \ [your username] \ AppData \ Roaming \ Adobe \ CameraRaw \ CameraProfiles

Mac—Macintosh HD / Users / [your username] / Library / Application Support / Adobe / CameraRaw / Camera Profiles

 

Here's a link to the DNG Recipe used inside the DNG Profile Editor.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lshxzni2j59upvu/Nikon%20D750%20Legacy%20Adobe%20Standard.dcpr?dl=0

 

Here's what it looks like showing a Nikon D750 NEF with the corrected Adobe Standard Profile next to the Panasonic G85 (G81 German model).

Panasonic G81 G85 Series vs Nikon D750 Adobe Standard Corrected.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 28, 2021 Mar 28, 2021

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Profiles were overhauled in 2015 and Adobe Color is now the default.

 

The old Adobe Standard profile is still present and available, and hasn't been changed to my knowledge.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 28, 2021 Mar 28, 2021

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Dag, I'm familiar with the change to Adobe Raw camera profiles with Adobe Color the new default. Please re-read my post, which concerns a change Adobe made "silently" that lowered the color saturation and contrast of the Adobe Standard profile in Q3 of 2014. New camera models introduced after this time period (~Sept 2014) all have Adobe Standard profiles with lower color saturation and contrast when compared to the earlier models. Here's are Canon EOS camera models from 2012 and 2016 with Adobe Standard camera profile applied that demonstrates the issue. It's unfortunate that Adobe removed all posts in the Adobe forums prior to 2016.

 

Canon 5D MKIII_5D MKIV_1DX_1DX MKII_Adobe Standard.jpg

 

There is a post in the Photoshop Family forum that touches on this issue.

https://feedback.photoshop.com/conversations/camera-raw-and-dng/camera-rawlightroom-5d-mark-iv-wrong...

 

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 28, 2021 Mar 28, 2021

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Sorry...if you can believe it, I thought it was a post from someone else. I read this on my phone, and by the time I get to the second paragraph, the name is a lot of scrolling up

...

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Community Beginner ,
Mar 28, 2021 Mar 28, 2021

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Wow, great find, thanks for sharing! It's all quite intriguing really. I'll be looking into calibration and profile tweaking a bit, but it seems likely that the issue is related to that profile update. 

Thanks for going all the way and looking up G81 and D750 comparisons. If I find anything more I'll be sure to report back here.

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