Lightroom does not preserve Horizontal Flip on Export - Why?

[WPA57]

I have a question relating to the “Horizontal flip” function in Lightroom.

I have a number of scanned 35mm transparencies (24-bit tif) that have been scanned on the wrong side so I need to batch “horizontal flip” these.

The fundamental issue is that I can do the flip in Lightroom but when I export the photo in the original tif format), the photo is in its original orientation.

Except that –

If I do the export to email format as a jpg   ie using one of the export presets, the flip IS preserved.

So it seems that Lightroom does not remember that I have done the flip if I export as the original ie tif

I suspect that this could be something to do with the fact that Lightroom does not really consider such a transform a real edit – doing the flip is not saved in history. I would like to save the flip operation as a preset and apply to images as I import but it seems I cannot save such a preset.

So – any ideas why Lightroom does not preserve the Flip on export – is this a bug or a “feature”?

Either way, how do I get it to sing my tune!

Thanks!

[bhousto90]

Export as original does just that - an original copy with no edits

If you export as a TIF it should work

[WPA57]

Thanks - I meant the export format is set to original (as opposed to jpg, dng etc)... which I understood meant

"Keep the edits that were performed but don't mess with the file format"

There is an option to select tiff as the format (ie which is the original format) but this starts asking about colour space and bit depth and it's doing some manipulation as I can confirm by a change in filesize. (Even though it DOES preserve the flip).

(The original images are 24-bit sRGB but I can only select 16 bit)

I would not expect a flip to result in any filesize change.

I need it just to leave ALL that kind of formatting just as it was and only do the flip.

Hope that makes sense...

Thanks again!

[Bob Somrak]

Your original images are probably 8 bits per channel or 3x8=24bit.  The export choices in Lightroom for TIFF are 8 and 16 bits per channel.

[WPA57]

Ok I know bit depth numbers can vary depending what you mean.

These files are 239mb tiffs for each scanned photo so def not 8 bit!

i think it boils down to - How do I get Lightroom to export without file format manipulation of any kind?

It appears this is only possible if I select "original file format" on export... but this does not preserve the flip.

[Bob Somrak]

WPA57  wrote

Ok I know bit depth numbers can vary depending what you mean.

These files are 239mb tiffs for each scanned photo so def not 8 bit!

i think it boils down to - How do I get Lightroom to export without file format manipulation of any kind?

It appears this is only possible if I select "original file format" on export... but this does not preserve the flip.

It all depends on what resolution you used to scan the slides.  I have a Minolta Scan Elite 5400 film scanner  and if I scan at 5400dpi and 8 bit per channel (24 bit) Tiff my files are about 115mb or so.  If I scan at 16 bit per channel (48 bit) Tiff my files are 230mb or so.   You need to tell us what dpi you are scanning at so the true dpi can be calculated.  If you export your 239 mb TIFF from Lightroom at 16bit uncompressed what is your file size?

As bhousto90​ said, you CAN"T use export as original. 

[Rob_Cullen]

To summarize the correct answers from bhousto90​ and Bob Somrak​:

This exports the original scan image EXACTLY as it came from the scanner. NO Lightroom edits.

This exports a 'new' TIFF image that has all the Lightroom edits, including the 'flip horizontal'

[WPA57]

Ok thanks everyone

All understood.

The point that remains is - i realise that transforms like rotation and flips are not really edits.

Some software out there is capable of doing such operations and resaving without re-rendering - even on a jpg - ie so-called "lossless jpg rotation"

An example being Irfanview.

Although i don't have jpgs, the point is the "no re-rendering"

When i choose the "save as Tiff" option in Lightroom, the filesize changes from 239mb to 233 mb - so it's evident that it HAS been re-rendered.

So why don't i use irfanview for this operation on my images? - answer - Irfanview cannot resave to the original 24 bit.

Perhaps it's not a big deal if Lightroom re-renderes my image, but I can't help feeling that surely Lightroom will have this capability somewhere? It's difficult to believe that this is a gap in Lightroom's abilities.

Or - is there other software out there that will do what i want (in batch mode)?

Thanks again

[Todd Shaner]

WPA57  wrote

When i choose the "save as Tiff" option in Lightroom, the filesize changes from 239mb to 233 mb - so it's evident that it HAS been re-rendered.

TIFF file format uses lossless compression or NO compression. No re-rendering is being done when you Export a TIFF file to TIFF file format inside LR.

The 6 MB difference in file size is trivial and can be due to differences in the file metadata or use of ZIP compression in the LR Export module. BTW what Bit Depth setting did you use in the LR Export module and are you sure that is the bit depth of the original file? I suggest uploading one of the original TIFF scanner output files to Dropbox or other file sharing site for inspection.

[elie_dinur]

(The original images are 24-bit sRGB but I can only select 16 bit)

So why don't i use irfanview for this operation on my images? - answer - Irfanview cannot resave to the original 24 bit.

If your scanner software is referring to the Tiff files as "24 bit" this is the same as what is called in other software (and more generally) an 8 bit Tiff. Each image pixel contains data about three color channels -Red, Green and Blue - and each channel is written to 8 bit precision, hence a total of 24 bits per pixel.

If your files are indeed 8/24 bit Tiffs and are 239 MB, that means that your images are around 7450x11175 pixels (83 MP). To get an image this size from a 36 mm slide the scan resolution must have been 8800 ppi. If, on the other hand, they are actually 16/48 bit Tiffs, the scan must have been around 4400 ppi.  [In either case the scan resolution is unnecessarily large, real overkill well beyond the likely capture abilities of the original camera lens and the film, and is giving you unnecessarily large files that are hogging storage space and are slow to work with. But that's your call.]

A new Tiff exported by LR in the original bit depth, 8 or 16, will have no image data changed other than what you have chosen to change in the Develop module. I also find it very difficult to believe that Irfanview or any other photo editor that writes Tiff will not write them in 8 bit depth.

[Just Shoot Me]

I have done several tests with camera images that were RAW then sent to PS and saved as TIFF.

In all cases if I Flip Horizontally and then Export as either a TIFF or Original the Flip is preserved.

I just did a test with a Scanned B&W image exporting As Original and again the Flip was preserved. Same happens if exported as a TIFF.

So this is something unique to your system. I would try resetting the LR Preferences and test.

As to all the other posts on 8-24 bit I have no idea but I seriously doubt that has anything to do with the Flip not carrying over to the exported file.

[Todd Shaner]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Just+Shoot+Me  wrote

I have done several tests with camera images that were RAW then sent to PS and saved as TIFF.

In all cases if I Flip Horizontally and then Export as either a TIFF or Original the Flip is preserved.

I just did a test with a Scanned B&W image exporting As Original and again the Flip was preserved. Same happens if exported as a TIFF.

I can confirm the 'Flip Horizontal' setting is preserved for both raw and TIFF file formats when exported to Original or TIFF file format selection on Windows 10 with LR Classic 8.1. As Just Shoot Me mentions the most likely cause is LR Preferences file corruption.

https://laurashoe.com/2018/06/26/resolving-buggy-behavior-in-lightroom-reset-preferences/

[WPA57]

Thanks to everyone for their inputs here.

I now understand what is really going on – partly I have been confused by what Lightroom means by eg “Export as original”, and partly I have been just confused….!

So putting it down here in case of use to anyone else.

1/ The images are 16/24/48 bit (depending on what you mean by bits – I know it varies) 5400ppi non compressed TIF  - scans of 35mm transparancies.

2/ First confusion:-

• - I had THOUGHT that “Export to Image Format – Original” meant just that – ie export the file with any edits to the original format , whatever that was eg TIF, jpg.
• - Instead, it actually means “Export the image just as it was imported, with NO edits”
• - Which explains why the images had been flipped back to original when I used this

3/ Second confusion

• - When I tried the “Export to TIFF”, I was NOT expecting to be asked about which colourspace & it depth I wanted.   Or to be more precise, I WAS expecting to see an option to export to TIFF, keeping the original Colourspace & Bit Depth, whatever that was.   Ie I didn’t understand why I had to specify those. It would have helped if LR had told me “Your original image is eg sRGB 16Bit”…then I would have known what to choose – but I was not certain – and I cannot get LR to divulge that info. (I cannot imagine why?)
• - So – when I exported the image with the Bit and Colour parameters that I thought the image contained and ended up with a different filesize, the only possible conclusion was that LR was altering the image somehow.
• - But this was an elementary error on my part, the 233 vs 239 Mb sizes I saw is just the different ways of expressing filesize. The image was in fact unaltered (apart from the desired flip)

So – all is OK, LR does do what I wanted.

[Todd Shaner]

WPA57  wrote

3/ Second confusion

• - When I tried the “Export to TIFF”, I was NOT expecting to be asked about which colourspace & it depth I wanted.   Or to be more precise, I WAS expecting to see an option to export to TIFF, keeping the original Colourspace & Bit Depth, whatever that was.

After thinking about this you can use the Library module to batch flip-horizontal and retain the original file format, color space, and bit depth.

1) In the Library module Grid View mode select all of the image files you want to flip-horizontal.

2) Go to menu selection Photo> Flip Horizontal.

3) With all of the flipped image files still selected use the CTRL/CMD + S keys or menu selection Metadata> Save Metadata to file.

4) Done!

Keep in mind this will also add any LR metadata you may have entered including Keywords EXIF, and IPTC data, but NOT the Develop settings. So you may want to add this metadata before the batch flip. Unedited metadata in the files at time of import will be written back to the file and retained. Give it a try!

[WPA57]

Thanks - I tried that but "Save as original format" still did just that! - ie unflipped the image

[Just Shoot Me]

WPA57  wrote

Thanks - I tried that but "Save as original format" still did just that! - ie unflipped the image

What is "Save as Original Format". No where in LR do I find, and have never found, that Save as Original Format.

There is Export and then you can select Original instead of JPG, TIFF, PSD or DNG in the File Settings section of the export dialog.

[Todd Shaner]

WPA57  wrote

Thanks - I tried that but "Save as original format" still did just that! - ie unflipped the image

1) There is no need to re-export the original TIFF file. When you use 'Save Metadata to file' the LR flipped-horizontal orientation edit is written into the file's EXIF data 'Orientation field' as 'Mirror horizontal' (see below ExifTool screenshot). If you open the unexported original TIFF file in any viewer it will respect the flipped-horizontal orientation. There's nothing more you need to do to make that happen. Done!

2) In addition I used Export> File Settings> Image Format> Original and the resulting new TIFF file shows the Horizontal Flip in both LR and in an external photo viewer XnViewMP (see screenshot below). As Just Shoot Me mentions you're doing something wrong. "Save as original format" doesn't exist in LR Classic 8.1. What version of LR are you using? Go to Help> About Photoshop Lightroom and tell us what you see.

[Bob Somrak]

Todd

The images are flipped for me on export using ”original” but your example does not show a flip.

[Todd Shaner]

Sorry, it's probably not the best image for this comparison. If you look carefully the words x-rite colorchecker are flipped horizontal.

This is what it should look like without the flip.

[Bob Somrak]

Todd

i like your idea of just writing the metadata after the flip.  I didn’t realize  it worked this way.

[johnrellis]

Keep in mind this will also add any LR metadata you may have entered including Keywords EXIF, and IPTC data, but NOT the Develop settings.

Metadata > Save Metadata To File will save develop settings back to the file if the option Catalog Settings > Metadata > Include Develop Settings In Metadata is checked. I think that option is on by default (but I'm not positive).

[Todd Shaner]

Thanks John, you are 100% correct. I was confusing the behavior of Library module's Sync, which doesn't sync the Develop module settings. Anyhow it shouldn't cause any issues.

After thinking about why this isn't working for the OP (horizontal-flip not sticking) I'm guessing some image files may have been already flipped-horizontal and then applied again using the steps in my reply #13. This will revert the image file back to the original scanner file's state.

Jeffrey Friedl's Data Explorer plugin has a search for Orientation, which should work. Here's an example with some of my scanner files. I selected 'Isolate Each Result to its own Collection' and then verified the actual orientation state and they all appeared correct. Can this be also done using your AnyFilter plugin?

In this example the flipped-horizontal was done on purpose for scanning Kodak 35mm slides using a camera and macro lens. The Kodak slide mount was designed to allow some film curvature, which better matched Kodak slide projector's lens curvature of field. In my case flipping the emulsion towards the lens (reversed) provided a better match to the camera macro lens curvature of field.

[johnrellis]

Any Filter's Filter command provides that functionality, with a user interface similar to the Library Filter bar's Metadata browser:

[Todd Shaner]

Thanks John. I forgot about the new AnyFilter Filter applet. I get the same results as Jeffrey Friedel's Data Explorer plugin, but one of his orientation descriptions is incorrect.

To clear up any confusion these are all the same orientation:

EXIF Data Format = Mirror horizontal and rotate 270 CW (Edited)

Data Explorer = flip horiz and 90° CW (should be flip horiz and 90° CCW)

AnyFilter Filter = 270 degrees mirrored

I'll send Jeffrey Friedl an email so he can correct it.

[johnrellis]

EXIF Data Format = Mirror horizontal and rotate 270 CW (Edited)

Data Explorer = flip horiz and 90° CW (should be flip horiz and 90° CCW)

AnyFilter Filter = 270 degrees mirrored

Are you sure this is what you observed?  For EXIF "Mirror horizontal and rotate 270 CW", I observe Data Explorer reporting "90° CW and flipped horiz" and Any Filter reporting "90 degrees mirrored".

More generally, here's a table showing how ExifTool, Any Filter, and Data Explorer report the 8 different combinations of rotation and mirroring:

Though the three apps use different naming, the names look consistent.