Lightroom does not preserve Horizontal Flip on Export - Why?

[WPA57]

I have a question relating to the “Horizontal flip” function in Lightroom.

I have a number of scanned 35mm transparencies (24-bit tif) that have been scanned on the wrong side so I need to batch “horizontal flip” these.

The fundamental issue is that I can do the flip in Lightroom but when I export the photo in the original tif format), the photo is in its original orientation.

Except that –

If I do the export to email format as a jpg   ie using one of the export presets, the flip IS preserved.

So it seems that Lightroom does not remember that I have done the flip if I export as the original ie tif

I suspect that this could be something to do with the fact that Lightroom does not really consider such a transform a real edit – doing the flip is not saved in history. I would like to save the flip operation as a preset and apply to images as I import but it seems I cannot save such a preset.

So – any ideas why Lightroom does not preserve the Flip on export – is this a bug or a “feature”?

Either way, how do I get it to sing my tune!

Thanks!

[Todd Shaner]

You are correct. It's a matter of the order the flip and rotate are applied. As you show there are four states, but actually two orderings (Flip> Rotate, Rotate> Flip). That's what confused me. Thanks for looking into this John–Much appreciated! I'll send a link to this post to Jeffrey.

[WPA57]

So much thought, thankyou!

My LR version is 6.14, though I don't suppose the fact that this is an earlier version makes a difference in this case.

It will be later next week before I have a chance to try the suggestions here - just goes to show that as ever, there are many ways of achieving what you want.

[Todd Shaner]

Glad to help. Both plugins are fully compatible with LR 6.14.

[Lumigraphics]

There seems to be a bunch of confusion about what the lossless flip or rotation is about.

Most image formats have space reserved for EXIF and other metadata. Image orientation is set in the TIFF namespace, in the orientation property. If a graphics app makes that change, you must export the file with the TIFF namespace intact or you lose the rotation/flip. This same namespace stores the resolution setting which is why if you strip metadata, some program default to a 72ppi setting.

[Todd Shaner]

Lumigraphics  wrote

If a graphics app makes that change, you must export the file with the TIFF namespace intact or you lose the rotation/flip.

I'm not sure what you mean by "namespace intact." The LR Export module updates the EXIF Orientation data with the non-destructive orientation edits applied inside LR. The original file can also be updated by using 'Save metadata to file' command or CTRL/CMD + S keys, but this also writes the Develop settings and any metadata edits applied inside LR.

You can create an exact copy of the original file with just the Orientation EXIF data updated by exporting the image file to 'Original' file format (i.e. lossless rotation).

[Lumigraphics]

Metadata is divided into section, which are defined by namespaces. Each namespace has various tags containing data. Some or all can be deleted.  Bridge, ACR, Lightroom, and Photoshop can read and write them, along with loads of other software.

If you delete the rotation tag, you lose rotation data.

Also remember that the same metadata can be saved in different tags or namespaces.

[WPA57]

I have investigated “Save Metadata to File” further

It is NOT behaving quite as expected.

Because, depending on the application, even though the EXIF shows that the orientation has been changed after a Flip or Rotate, the Display of the Photo is variable, depending on the application used to view.

ie

1/ If I do either a Rotate or a Flip (then Saving Metadata to file)

- The Orientation description in the EXIF has changed (ie as expected)

- But

- Viewing the files as “large Icons” in Windows explorer has the image in the original orientation

- Opening the file in a viewing application, such as Irfanview, Faststone, Windows Photo viewer and others results in some applications showing the image orientated as carried out in LR and some in the original orientation. One application will show a flip done correctly but not a rotate, another will show a rotate done correctly but not a flip.

-

2/ But you Export the file (instead of Saving Metadata), then it is seen in the newly orientated way in every application, including Windows Explorer view.

Incidentally, in this case the EXIF structure has also been completely changed by the Export operation. ie not just the content of the Orientation field, the fields themselves have changed.

Conclusion

- Saving Metadata to file is not reliable as the altered file is handled unpredictably, just depending on the application used.

[Todd Shaner]

WPA57  wrote

I have investigated “Save Metadata to File” further

It is NOT behaving quite as expected.

Because, depending on the application, even though the EXIF shows that the orientation has been changed after a Flip or Rotate, the Display of the Photo is variable, depending on the application used to view.

Not all picture viewer apps  apply the EXIF orienation data to the image. Some have 'Option' settings to to do so, but you have to manually select it in the apps options menu. XNView is a good example: https://www.xnview.com/wiki/index.php/Image_Rotation

WPA57  wrote

2/ But you Export the file (instead of Saving Metadata), then it is seen in the newly orientated way in every application, including Windows Explorer view.

When the file is exported in LR it applies the Flip Horizontal orientation to the image data in the new file and changes the EXIF to blank (i.e. nothing). All image viewer and editing applications will open this image with NO orientation changes, which is correct.

WPA57  wrote

2/ But you Export the file (instead of Saving Metadata), then it is seen in the newly orientated way in every application, including Windows Explorer view.

Incidentally, in this case the EXIF structure has also been completely changed by the Export operation. ie not just the content of the Orientation field, the fields themselves have changed.

By EXIF structure I think you mean the image data has been completely changed, which is correct. What surprised me is the LR Export file when examined in ExifTool has no entry for 'Orientation' field. It's not a problem since the image data orientation is correct, but it's inconsistent with PS, which inserts 'Horizontal (normal)' in the Orientation EXIF data field.